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  #1  
Old 07-21-2011, 03:55 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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  #2  
Old 07-21-2011, 04:11 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

Herman Cain is obviously getting a pass for the statements he made about muslims. Could it be due to his being an African American? Perhaps. Nevertheless, he's done as a serious candidate for the presidency due to his moronic opinions.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:24 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

It's not due to his being an African-American. It's due to the carefully cultivated climate of Islamophobia on the Republican right. Mainstream Republicans like Romney and even President Bush have not indulged the bigoted base, but it's to be expected that the 8slamophobes will be represented by 2 or 3 primary candidates who need that demographic to advance. Ditto for all Republican fringe causes: creationism, global warming denialism, homophobia and deport-the-Mexicansism.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:35 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
...
but it's to be expected that the 8slamophobes will be represented by 2 or 3 primary candidates who need that demographic to advance. Ditto for all Republican fringe causes: creationism, global warming denialism, homophobia and deport-the-Mexicansism.
States rights! Immigration should be contolled at the state level. The world is overpopulated to the extreme, and the number of people is continuing to increase. Between now and some future date when all the natural resources are consumed, the global ecosystem will be destroyed. Then when the shortages kick in there will be terrible violence as people fight over the resources that remain.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:32 PM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
States rights!
That's your solution for everything. Even Jefferson Davis would oppose your states rights extremism.
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  #6  
Old 07-21-2011, 09:13 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
It's not due to his being an African-American. It's due to the carefully cultivated climate of Islamophobia on the Republican right. Mainstream Republicans like Romney and even President Bush have not indulged the bigoted base, but it's to be expected that the 8slamophobes will be represented by 2 or 3 primary candidates who need that demographic to advance. Ditto for all Republican fringe causes: creationism, global warming denialism, homophobia and deport-the-Mexicansism.
geez! those republicans certainly are a complicated bunch.
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  #7  
Old 07-21-2011, 09:55 PM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
Herman Cain is obviously getting a pass for the statements he made about muslims. Could it be due to his being an African American? Perhaps.
No, it's probably due to the fact that he's right. No one will fight for the religion responsible for 16,000 deadly terrorist attacks since 9/11. It is both morally reprehensible and politically disadvantageous.

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Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
Nevertheless, he's done as a serious candidate for the presidency due to his moronic opinions.
It must gall leftists that black Republicans take the lead in attacking Islam. Herman Cain and Col. Allen West are two examples of profiles in courage who have transcended the fear of being attacked by Islamic terrorists (like Theo van Gogh, Salman Rushdie, the Danish cartoonists, and basically anyone who tells the truth about Islam) and instead decide to inform people about the true nature of Islam.

It's hard to call a black man whose forebears were slaves a member of the KKK, just because he criticizes an ideology of hatred and violence.
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  #8  
Old 07-21-2011, 07:26 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default start with some facts - is heightend airport security because of muslims?

If there were very few muslims living the the US, our public spaces would not require the extreme security measures that exist nowadays. Airport security must cost 10s of billions per year in the US. If that is true, and, objectively I think it is, then it is to be expected that people would not be happy with muslims in the US.
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  #9  
Old 07-21-2011, 08:18 PM
Simon Willard Simon Willard is offline
 
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Default Looking for an argument

This was a fine discussion with no disagreement between the participants. Normally, I want more of a split between the participants; however, this one works because the topic centers on Muslim perceptions, and the many of us who are non-Muslim can supply our own perceptions or biases to set up the contrast that makes a diavlog compelling.

Watching with my skeptical attitude, I found very little to disagree with. The arguments here are mostly eloquent, logical and thoughtful. There were only two issues that came to my attention as needing to be challenged.

The issue of airport security came up as a source of antipathy toward the Muslim community. Yet, in the section on what to do about antipathy, the topic was not mentioned. I come away thinking that these two did not properly explain their views on the issue. Is there a specific complaint here? Would they change airport security procedures? Do they simply want the public's sympathy and understanding when Muslims get a second look?

The second issue has to do with pledging to support the US Constitution, which strikes me as de rigueur for presidential candidates. If it's a question placed to a Muslim who might (let's assume) be suspect in the minds of conservative Americans, it's the kind of soft-ball question a good politician hits out of the park. Kennedy got this question in a televised news conference, and it was tremendously beneficial to his campaign. So I'm not sympathetic to Farhana's connecting this to "dark chapters" in American history.

Last edited by Simon Willard; 07-21-2011 at 08:21 PM..
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  #10  
Old 07-21-2011, 08:50 PM
cacimbo cacimbo is offline
 
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Default Uptick in antipathy toward Muslims

The Fort Hood shooting should really be included in possible reasons for changing attitudes toward Muslims. This shooting and the way it was handled did more to alter American perceptions of Muslims than the election or actions of President Obama.
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  #11  
Old 07-21-2011, 08:55 PM
T.G.G.P T.G.G.P is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

If I said I wouldn't have any scientologists in my cabinet, would anyone give a damn? Of course, the whole thing is silly since I don't think prior presidents had Muslims (or scientologists, for that matter) in their cabinets. Go back to pizza, Cain.

Americans like to tell ourselves that the initial settlers came for religious freedom, but actually the Puritans couldn't stand all the freedom in the Netherlands. They came to America to set up their own exclusive religious community. Rhode Island had religious freedom, and the Quakers embraced it as well, but they were rather atypical. The various sects weren't strong enough to lord it over one another and each feared possible persecution, so that's how they came to a truce with the first amendment (which only restricted the federal government rather than states).

The person whose Park 51 opposition I was most disgusted by was the late John Hospers. Maybe he expected to be persecuted under a Muslim polity and that resulted in personal animus, or maybe he just lost it in his later years.

I've got an interest in polycentric legal systems and making your own law through contracts, so a lot of these anti-sharia measures have been additionally annoying to me. I can sympathize with complaints about the supreme court using the law of other countries to interpret the U.S constitution, but the rabble-rabble-rabble folks are too incompetent to direct their ire at that rather than personal contracts. Shariah is a particularly interesting example of religious law, because unlike in Judaism no school of jurisprudence managed to repress all the others.

I think I've mentioned this before, but I could be considered anti-Muslim.

Aziz points out that by treating al Qaeda as representative, islamophobes legitimize their views. But I've heard that it is also moderate Muslims back down from challenging the more "authentic" fundamentalists. And when I was a believe I thought you obviously have to be a fundamentalist or nothing (of course I'm nothing now). Catholics underwent a kulturkampf before being Protestantized, Muslims in western countries inevitably will as well.

Farhana says it's been ten years of people being told by law enforcement and government officials to be suspicious of Muslims. I don't think she gives the government nearly enough credit. They've been fairly uniform with the islam-is-a-religion-of-peace message (leading to mockery from the public). I read about some law enforcement officials pushing an anti-Muslim message, but they got fired. And going beyond that to the media, I remember more movies featuring Muslim terrorists before 9/11 than afterward (Sum of All Fears was famously changed from Arab to neo-nazi terrorists). Populist anti-islam demagogues then use that to argue "The elites are lying to you, and they would never cut equivalent Christians the same slack". And I think she gives too much credit to the general public regarding being aware of the FBI monitoring mosques. The airport is again a place where the public is upset that their grandmas are being pulled out of lines because the authorities are too stupid/liberal to realize that brown dude in a turban over there is the real potential terrorist. Of course the Muslim organizations Farhan works with experience this scrutiny and it is highly salient to them, but the general public doesn't see that happening or ask Muslims what they are experiencing.

I can understand Aziz' argument that economic problems can make people angry and irrational, but I have never heard anybody try to attribute these problems to islam. Ire is directed at Wall Street and Washington. If it weren't, I'd have an even lower opinion of the general public! I'll grant his point about immigrants broadly speaking, mainly Hispanics who are closely associated with the housing boom and the states that experienced big crashes.

Aziz mentions the Scots-Irish connection to other countries, but ironically enough they are among the most likely to enter their ethnicity as simply "American" (possibly because they don't know where specifically their ancestors came from).

Beyond the boundary line which public discourse isn't supposed to cross is the sphere of deviance. I'm glad that on the internet we can discuss without repercussions, this helps to mitigate the problem of "preference falsification" at the core of Timur Kuran's book "Private Truths, Public Lies".

Aziz says the parties have gotten past "racist preferences or biased preferences". I'm sorry, but affirmative action may be completely justified and yet there is no way you can say it doesn't constitute biased preferences. And citing Kuran's book, the parties have been very reluctant to reject that and many prominent officials explicitly support it.

Last edited by T.G.G.P; 07-21-2011 at 10:29 PM..
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  #12  
Old 07-21-2011, 09:38 PM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
If I said I wouldn't have any scientologists in my cabinet, would anyone give a damn? Of course, the whole thing is silly since I don't think prior presidents had Muslims (or scientologists, for that matter) in their cabinets. Go back to pizza, Cain.
And why does this mean that Cain should "go back to pizza"? Blame the people who stir up controversy when a respectable, responsible individual like Herman Cain makes proper and correct comments about Islam. Don't blame Cain for being right,

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
Shariah is a particularly interesting example of religious law, because unlike in Judaism no school of jurisprudence managed to repress all the others.
Correct, there are great disagreements between the schools of Islam. For example, one believes that homosexuals should be burned to death, while another believes that a wall should be collapsed on their head. Still another believes that they should be buried alive. See, Islam is not a monolith! That is just what Islamophobes say to justify their irrational bias against burying people alive.

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Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
Aziz points out that by treating al Qaeda as representative, islamophobes legitimize their views.
No one treats Al Qaeda as representative. Islam has a prohibition against suicide, and the actions of Al Qaeda run afoul of that prohibition. On the other hand, Al Qaeda's violence is very consistent with Islam, which has been a bloody religion from the day go, and remains a bloody religion to this day.
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  #13  
Old 07-21-2011, 10:02 PM
T.G.G.P T.G.G.P is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
And why does this mean that Cain should "go back to pizza"?
He's clearly better at it than the job he's running for. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't know what the law is (although I give him credit for admitting his ignorance to Conor Friedersdorf, among others) and is ready to jettison a major portion of the first amendment.

Quote:
No one treats Al Qaeda as representative. Islam has a prohibition against suicide, and the actions of Al Qaeda run afoul of that prohibition. On the other hand, Al Qaeda's violence is very consistent with Islam, which has been a bloody religion from the day go, and remains a bloody religion to this day.
Islam also says muslims should never surrender, but when reality intervenes Muslim armies have done so repeatedly. You are giving too much credence to spoken beliefs about religion (which don't matter a whole lot) and not enough to its actual practice. See Theological incorrectness.
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2011, 10:13 PM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
He's clearly better at it than the job he's running for. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't know what the law is (although I give him credit for admitting his ignorance to Conor Friedersdorf, among others) and is ready to jettison a major portion of the first amendment.
He has a different interpretation of the First Amendment that you do, that is clear. He does not think that violent religions of hatred have a right to impose themselves on free people, when these free people do not want to have a beacon of hatred and a terrorist recruiting ground in their midst. Obviously, you may disagree, but Herman Cain isn't jettisoning anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
Islam also says muslims should never surrender, but when reality intervenes Muslim armies have done so repeatedly. You are giving too much credence to spoken beliefs about religion (which don't matter a whole lot) and not enough to its actual practice. See Theological incorrectness.
It is correct that not all Muslims follow their religion. Thank God. That is why there are peaceful Muslims. But betting on the ability of Muslims to ignore their religion is ill-conceived. For as long as the societal poison called Islam is out their, it will continue to wreak havoc around the world, everywhere its adherents are found - from Dearborn to Denmark through Thailand and Japan.

Herman Cain opposes giving up freedoms to appease Islam, and apparently, that makes him a Ku Klux Klan member.
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2011, 10:23 PM
T.G.G.P T.G.G.P is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
He has a different interpretation of the First Amendment that you do, that is clear. He does not think that violent religions of hatred have a right to impose themselves on free people, when these free people do not want to have a beacon of hatred and a terrorist recruiting ground in their midst. Obviously, you may disagree, but Herman Cain isn't jettisoning anything.
Look at the text of the first amendment. Does it contain any exceptions for hateful religions? Of course not. Be serious.

Quote:
It is correct that not all Muslims follow their religion. Thank God. That is why there are peaceful Muslims. But betting on the ability of Muslims to ignore their religion is ill-conceived. For as long as the societal poison called Islam is out their, it will continue to wreak havoc around the world, everywhere its adherents are found - from Dearborn to Denmark through Thailand and Japan.
I haven't heard of any problems in Japan. My guess is that they actually improve Michigan. In fact, from what I've heard the crime rate among Muslim immigrants in America is significantly below the national average (figures for Muslims as a whole may differ due to prison converts). You can present info about the modal global Muslim, but there is a very strong filtering mechanism applying to Muslim immigrants to the U.S (Europe is a different story, they were stupid enough to locate their continent right above North Africa rather than Mexico). So present data on U.S muslims, because that's more relevant.

Quote:
Herman Cain opposes giving up freedoms to appease Islam, and apparently, that makes him a Ku Klux Klan member.
I didn't call him a klansman, I said he's prepared to jettison our freedom of religion.

Last edited by T.G.G.P; 07-21-2011 at 10:25 PM..
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  #16  
Old 07-22-2011, 08:05 AM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
Look at the text of the first amendment. Does it contain any exceptions for hateful religions? Of course not. Be serious.
Let's be serious. Does the Equal Protection Clause contain any exceptions for child molesters? No, but it would be unreasonable to interpret that clause to mandate that child molesters should get equal rights. Similarly, freedom of religion is not a freedom to construct a center for the recruitment of terrorists. Nor does it allow for preaching a religion that holds that anyone who wants to leave that religion should be murdered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
I haven't heard of any problems in Japan.
Very understandable. There are very few Muslims in Japan. Yet even where it is a tiny minority, Islam manages to create problems: a translator for Rushdie's book was stabbed to death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
My guess is that they actually improve Michigan. In fact, from what I've heard the crime rate among Muslim immigrants in America is significantly below the national average (figures for Muslims as a whole may differ due to prison converts).
It is very understandable that someone in prison would convert to Islam, as Islam justifies crimes against infidels. Also, I'd wager that someone in prison for raping a 9-year-old girl would appreciate a religion where someone like him is 'prophet' and admired by 1.5 billion people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
So present data on U.S muslims, because that's more relevant.
What about all the terrorist attacks? What about Fort Hood? Leftists insist on comparing Muslims to Catholics and Jews, but when is the last time a Jew or Catholic killed his fellow soldiers out of religious motivations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
I didn't call him a klansman, I said he's prepared to jettison our freedom of religion.
You didn't call him a Klansman, but many people call anyone who criticizes this despicable religion a racist, a fascist and a Nazi. It's sad that Islam (the leading cause of terrorism and barbarity in the world) is the one ideology one isn't permitted to criticize.
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  #17  
Old 07-23-2011, 10:32 AM
T.G.G.P T.G.G.P is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Let's be serious. Does the Equal Protection Clause contain any exceptions for child molesters? No, but it would be unreasonable to interpret that clause to mandate that child molesters should get equal rights. Similarly, freedom of religion is not a freedom to construct a center for the recruitment of terrorists. Nor does it allow for preaching a religion that holds that anyone who wants to leave that religion should be murdered.
Child molesters do have equal rights. That's why they are given jury trials, allowed to have attorneys, protected from double jeopardy, and invalid evidence isn't permitted in court. And the first amendment has been ruled to permit saying that a murder is justified. Mosques are not recruitment centers for terrorists, there are a lot more mosques in the U.S than terrorists. And people who have actually studied the histories of terrorists find that they don't meet up on mosques. A mosque is a large community area too public for terrorist purposes. Terrorists are typically drawn in by small groups of friends (hence the "cell" structure) and once sufficiently committed they tend to drop out of broader community stuff like mosques.


Quote:
It is very understandable that someone in prison would convert to Islam, as Islam justifies crimes against infidels. Also, I'd wager that someone in prison for raping a 9-year-old girl would appreciate a religion where someone like him is 'prophet' and admired by 1.5 billion people.
No, I don't think they target child molesters. In America there is a history of "Moorish Science" and the Nation of Islam that appealed to african americans who felt alienated from mainstream white-dominated culture (sometimes rejecting "slave names" for muslim-sounding ones, even though muslims in Africa dominated the slave trade). Most african american muslims don't belong to NoI, but that's how I think the association came about. Prison converts are generally underclass blacks attempting to shift into a different subculture. I've yet to see any numbers on how their subsequent behavior changes, though I'd be interested in it.


Quote:
What about all the terrorist attacks? What about Fort Hood? Leftists insist on comparing Muslims to Catholics and Jews, but when is the last time a Jew or Catholic killed his fellow soldiers out of religious motivations?
There is an infinitesimal probability that any random American will be killed in a terrorist attack. If we look at homicides overall, a hell of a lot more will be from Catholics (simply because there are a lot more Catholics). You are right that their murders are not motivated by religion, but what makes that so significant? The vast majority of murders have really mundane motivations.


Quote:
You didn't call him a Klansman, but many people call anyone who criticizes this despicable religion a racist, a fascist and a Nazi. It's sad that Islam (the leading cause of terrorism and barbarity in the world) is the one ideology one isn't permitted to criticize.
What have I called you?
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  #18  
Old 07-23-2011, 11:32 AM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
Child molesters do have equal rights. That's why they are given jury trials, allowed to have attorneys, protected from double jeopardy, and invalid evidence isn't permitted in court.
They do not have equal rights, as their conduct is criminalized, as it should be. If Islam were criminalized, would you say that Muslims have equal rights, because of all the things you mention?

Child molesters have equal rights in Yemen and Afghanistan, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
Mosques are not recruitment centers for terrorists, there are a lot more mosques in the U.S than terrorists.
I'm afraid that's a non-sequitur, and probably not true. There are many more (potential) Islamic radicals than mosques. For example, why do 27% of American Muslims "not know" whether Al Qaeda is a decent organization or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
A mosque is a large community area too public for terrorist purposes. Terrorists are typically drawn in by small groups of friends (hence the "cell" structure) and once sufficiently committed they tend to drop out of broader community stuff like mosques.
And this is true, too. But many mosques are controlled from Yemen and Saudi Arabia, and have radical preachers not unsympathetic to Islamic radicals. These places are perfect for Islamic radicals to come into contact with fellow Islamic radicals - not necessarily to plan terrorist attacks from the mosque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
No, I don't think they target child molesters.
That was a joke, not a serious comment. However, if I were a Muslim recruiter, I would go after child molesters. "In your infidel country, your conduct is criminalized. In our faith, you can justify what you do by appealing to the man we admire most, the prophet (peace be upon him), who did the exact same thing you do."

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
There is an infinitesimal probability that any random American will be killed in a terrorist attack. If we look at homicides overall, a hell of a lot more will be from Catholics (simply because there are a lot more Catholics). You are right that their murders are not motivated by religion, but what makes that so significant?
There is also an infinitesimal probability that any gay or black American, or Jew, gets killed in a so called hate crime, but for some reason, people are shocked when one man kills another because of the color of his skin. Such hate is not a good thing. Religions that lead men to murder one another are also not good things.

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Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
What have I called you?
Nothing, you actually use arguments, instead of personal attacks. I referred to what "many people" call critics of Islam, not you personally.
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  #19  
Old 07-21-2011, 09:31 PM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

This is a joke. Huq claims that Herman Cain's (correct and appropriate) comments about Islam would have been a disqualifier is made about any other ethnicity, like African-Americans. Of course, Islam is not an ethnicity, it's a despicable religion of hate and mass murder. So it should not be compared to other ethnicities, but to other ideologies of mass murder. Let's test the claim, if Cain had said that he wouldn't appoint any Nazi to his cabinet, would that have sparked outrage? I don't think so. That is because Naziphobia is much more prevalent than Islamophobia, even those who condemn Islamophobia are Naziphobes. Which is hypocritical, because all arguments against Islamophobia can be made against Naziphobia.

Hate crimes: there are actually many times more hate crimes against Jews, even though Jews are not flying airplanes into skyscrapers or massacring their colleagues in the military, or forcing women into bee keepers suits.

The pilgrims: anyone who knows anything of history knows that they did not come to America to have religious freedom, but rather, to force their religion on everyone else. E.g. Annie Hutchison, Roger Williams, the Quaker controversy in Massachusetts.

Terrorism is the symptom, Islam is the disease. Even if you stamp out all terrorists, it will not last for long, because Islam has a remarkable ability to generate barbarity and terrorism. It's what happens when the founder of a religion is a mass-murdering barbarian.
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Old 07-23-2011, 03:49 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post

The pilgrims: anyone who knows anything of history knows that they did not come to America to have religious freedom, but rather, to force their religion on everyone else. E.g. Annie Hutchison, Roger Williams, the Quaker controversy in Massachusetts.
Without even arguing whether your history is correct or not, the fact is that Americans are taught and believe that this country was settled by folks escaping persecution from state established religions, and that this was a large factor in establishing freedom of religion in the constitution.

See..what matters is not actual history in this case, but what people think.

This is similar to your ridiculous insistence that Mohammed was an evil pedophile. It doesn't matter who Mohammed really was or what the Quran really says. What matters is what American Muslims say and who they really are based on their understandings of Mohammed and the Quran.

Christians and Jews have long abandoned the War God of the O.T. that says stone homosexuals and disobedient children and bash the brains of the Amalakite children against the wall. Their God is nothing like this. They are reformed from this barbarism. So why don't you let each Muslim, especially your fellow Americans who are Muslims, speak for themselves as to what their God and their Prophet is like? The only hope we have to combat the militant muslims is the reformed ones. Your dreams of eradicating the religion of 1.6 billion people is shameful. I really question if you are serious on these boards.
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Old 07-24-2011, 03:27 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Without even arguing whether your history is correct or not, the fact is that Americans are taught and believe that this country was settled by folks escaping persecution from state established religions, and that this was a large factor in establishing freedom of religion in the constitution.

See..what matters is not actual history in this case, but what people think.

This is similar to your ridiculous insistence that Mohammed was an evil pedophile. It doesn't matter who Mohammed really was or what the Quran really says. What matters is what American Muslims say and who they really are based on their understandings of Mohammed and the Quran.

Christians and Jews have long abandoned the War God of the O.T. that says stone homosexuals and disobedient children and bash the brains of the Amalakite children against the wall. Their God is nothing like this. They are reformed from this barbarism. So why don't you let each Muslim, especially your fellow Americans who are Muslims, speak for themselves as to what their God and their Prophet is like? The only hope we have to combat the militant muslims is the reformed ones. Your dreams of eradicating the religion of 1.6 billion people is shameful. I really question if you are serious on these boards.
I know you said you prefer to post disagreement and not agreement, but here I want to say that I agree. You said this really well.
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  #22  
Old 07-25-2011, 03:14 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
I know you said you prefer to post disagreement and not agreement, but here I want to say that I agree. You said this really well.
Thanks, Stephanie.
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  #23  
Old 07-28-2011, 11:33 AM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

I get the feeling that apple is a doppelganger for a recently banned poster, although the username "apple" was registered in 2009. On the one hand, there are clarion stylistic and substantive echoes of the banned poster. But there are also important stylistic differences, things that are inconsistent with my hypothesis, unless they are conscious diversionary tactics. So this is an hypothesis of which I can be disabused fairly easily but which I nevertheless want to advance.
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  #24  
Old 07-24-2011, 06:38 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Without even arguing whether your history is correct or not, the fact is that Americans are taught and believe that this country was settled by folks escaping persecution from state established religions, and that this was a large factor in establishing freedom of religion in the constitution.

See..what matters is not actual history in this case, but what people think.

This is similar to your ridiculous insistence that Mohammed was an evil pedophile. It doesn't matter who Mohammed really was or what the Quran really says. What matters is what American Muslims say and who they really are based on their understandings of Mohammed and the Quran.

Christians and Jews have long abandoned the War God of the O.T. that says stone homosexuals and disobedient children and bash the brains of the Amalakite children against the wall. Their God is nothing like this. They are reformed from this barbarism. So why don't you let each Muslim, especially your fellow Americans who are Muslims, speak for themselves as to what their God and their Prophet is like? The only hope we have to combat the militant muslims is the reformed ones. Your dreams of eradicating the religion of 1.6 billion people is shameful. I really question if you are serious on these boards.
A truly superb post, wh.
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Old 07-24-2011, 10:00 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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A truly superb post, wh.
For once, I agree with DoubleSpoons.


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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Sadly, this probably is the best strategy. I mean, it is important for ALL of us to vocalize our opposition to barbaric practices, whether done in the name of Islam or libertarianism or national security. But I think starwatcher was spot on in observing that the constant demands made of Muslims are really thinly veiled bigotry -- especially since Muslims constantly do criticize terrorism.
And I dare anyone to point out where I've said anything different than what DoubleSpoons said here. You expect to see some rightwing bigotry on my part so you're going to see it. End of story.
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  #26  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:44 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
And I dare anyone to point out where I've said anything different than what DoubleSpoons said here. You expect to see some rightwing bigotry on my part so you're going to see it. End of story.
Based on your response to my earlier post, it seems that you expect to be accused of bigotry and are inclined to see it when it's not there.
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  #27  
Old 07-21-2011, 10:08 PM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

Aziz Huq: 99.99% of Muslims reject violence.

REALITY: Let's just look at the people of Egypt, and the percentages of Muslims who favor the following:

Stoning people for adultery: 82%
Cutting off of hands for stealing: 77%
Death penalty for apostasy: 84% (source: http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/ )

There are 1.5 billion Muslims, supposedly. .01% of them is 150,000 people. But just the extremist population of Egypt is about 62 million (82 * .9 * .84), which is 413 times larger than what Huq claims that the entire extremist Muslim population of the world is. Isn't that swell?

Of course, there is nothing 'extreme' about these barbarities, this is just Islam, period.

Last edited by apple; 07-21-2011 at 10:13 PM..
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  #28  
Old 07-22-2011, 08:34 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Aziz Huq: 99.99% of Muslims reject violence.

REALITY: Let's just look at the people of Egypt, and the percentages of Muslims who favor the following:

Stoning people for adultery: 82%
Cutting off of hands for stealing: 77%
Death penalty for apostasy: 84%..............
How dare you use facts.

Not to mention that some people in Europe who quote these facts are forced to stay indoors a lot, travel with bodyguards etc because of all the death threats from members of the 'religion of peace'.
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  #29  
Old 07-22-2011, 04:10 AM
chainlink chainlink is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

I can understand why Muslims want to frame criticism of Islam as a civil rights violation. Blasphemy laws are common in Muslim countries, and these same countries--there are 56 of them in the Organization of the Islamic Conference--are trying to universalize such legislation through the United Nations. It must be a shock to come to a country where infidels can have their say, more or less. But why are non-Muslims consenting to approach disagreements with Islam on these terms? Why is it even an issue? Isn't it simply one of the meanings of liberal tolerance that one has to learn to live with criticism, among other things of one's religion?

Again, while it is clear why Muslim advocates would present it this way, why do we all have to pretend "anti-Muslim sentiment" is a serious problem? Is it just because of fear of terrorism--we don't want scary Muslims to think we don't like them? Scientology is criticized. There is much and constant criticism of all kinds of religious "cults." Much of seems well deserved: I grew up a Mormon, and early became aware that my religion was more often held in contempt than admired. Okay--over time I came much closer myself to the prevailing attitude. But why, in the case of Islam, is this seen as a civil rights issue, and not one of the need to develop thicker skins or better arguments or both?

And it's not as if all criticism of Islam is stupid--though, again, I can see why Muslim advocates assume this stance (Mormon apologists do precisely the same thing: all criticism is necessarily uninformed criticism). The most common ploy among Muslim apologists seems to be the claim, heard here and ad nauseam elsewhere, that Islam is extremely diverse--so any criticism can only backfire by displaying the criticizer's ignorance of its teeming variety. Islam itself (they imply) can't be touched, being a Platonically pure kind of entity, heavenward of any particular earthly embodiment.

But again, we non-Muslims, who do not have to assume Islam has any truth content beneath distasteful appearances, have no reason to play this game.

Last edited by chainlink; 07-22-2011 at 04:13 AM..
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  #30  
Old 07-22-2011, 05:24 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by chainlink View Post
But again, we non-Muslims, who do not have to assume Islam has any truth content beneath distasteful appearances, have no reason to play this game.
Well said. Muslims get no more and no less protection than any other religion in this country. If people have an objection to stoning women, silencing speech, death for apostasy, well, those objections aren't created out of thin air. Muslims will have to endure the court of public opinion just like anyone else. If critics are overzealous, they will be prosecuted to the extent that they break the law.

Welcome to America. Living in a land of tolerance means you have to tolerate our bullshit just as much as we have to tolerate your bullshit.
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  #31  
Old 07-22-2011, 07:37 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Well said. Muslims get no more and no less protection than any other religion in this country.
Agreed. I'm mystified at how this is a response to the diavlog, however. Perhaps you would like to identify the special protection you think the diavloggers were claiming so we can talk about it?

Quote:
If people have an objection to stoning women, silencing speech, death for apostasy, well, those objections aren't created out of thin air.
Again, I hardly see how this is responsive to the diavlog. Given the context, it suggests that the diavloggers would defend those things, and it seemed pretty obvious to me that they would not.

As miceelf said, if someone said they wouldn't hire American Jews or, say, Catholics, because those people have questionable loyalty, I'd criticize them harshly. I see no reason to put American Muslims in a different category.
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  #32  
Old 07-22-2011, 08:10 AM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
Agreed. I'm mystified at how this is a response to the diavlog, however. Perhaps you would like to identify the special protection you think the diavloggers were claiming so we can talk about it?
How about calling (well-grounded) criticism of their religion 'Islamophobia', in order to stigmatize it (while ironically claiming that they are being stigmatized)? You can criticize Southern Baptists, Catholics, anyone, but not Muslims, because that is "Islamophobia".

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
As miceelf said, if someone said they wouldn't hire American Jews or, say, Catholics, because those people have questionable loyalty, I'd criticize them harshly. I see no reason to put American Muslims in a different category.
What would you say if someone said they wouldn't hire Nazis, or Scientologists, or members of NAMBLA?
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  #33  
Old 07-22-2011, 08:42 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
How about calling (well-grounded) criticism of their religion 'Islamophobia', in order to stigmatize it (while ironically claiming that they are being stigmatized)? You can criticize Southern Baptists, Catholics, anyone, but not Muslims, because that is "Islamophobia".
Unlike some, I find Islam as it is commonly practiced through most of the world as contemptible. Here's the thing though; You can't judge a group here by the actions of another group that shares scripture that exists outside our borders. Especially when these two groups span the developed/non-developed world. This is the same as how I do not judge southern baptists by the actions of Christians in Uganda.

..and if criticisms of domestic Islam were as tepid as criticisms of Christians I doubt many would have a problem. Though there should be more restraint when criticizing a minority. When a majority is criticized by a minority the majority encounters criticism only rarely and can shrug it off. When a minority is criticized by a majority the minority gets it from all sides and this leads to a siege mentality.


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What would you say if someone said they wouldn't hire Nazis, or Scientologists, or members of NAMBLA?
Nazis as a group can be condemned by the actions of Nazis in America. I have no idea who NAMBLA is. I wouldn't care if they hired a Scientolist. Scientology scripture doesn't seem any more implausible and wacky then any of the other of the world's major religons, just newer.
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Last edited by Starwatcher162536; 07-22-2011 at 08:45 AM..
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  #34  
Old 07-22-2011, 09:56 AM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
Nazis as a group can be condemned by the actions of Nazis in America.
Why? What have Nazis in America done? Sure, some Nazis have senselessly murdered members of minority groups. But are we going to judge all Nazis by the actions of a violent, extremist minority? What about the peaceful Nazis who just have a shrine to Hitler in their home and read Mein Kampf before going to bed, drawing inspiration and hope from this book? 99.99% of Nazis are hard-working, decent people - supposedly.

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I have no idea who NAMBLA is.
It's the North American Man-Boy Love Association. Would people be outraged if Herman Cain had said that he would not appoint anyone from NAMBLA to his cabinet?

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I wouldn't care if they hired a Scientolist.
I didn't really ask whether you'd have a problem with someone hiring a Scientologist, I wondered what the reaction would be if Herman Cain had said that he would not hire any Scientologist to be in his cabinet. Would that have outraged all the leftists of this world?
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2011, 09:44 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

I don't think there is any way for us to have a productive discourse here. I'm going to continue to think of you as a bigot, and I imagine you're going to continue to think of me as, I dunno, an radical Islamist apologist.

Cheers
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2011, 11:22 AM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
I don't think there is any way for us to have a productive discourse here.
Now that's a shame. I would have loved to hear your answers to my questions, which would have been very productive.

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Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
I'm going to continue to think of you as a bigot, and I imagine you're going to continue to think of me as, I dunno, an radical Islamist apologist.
You are free to think of me as you wish, but as for me, I think of you as being somewhat misguided.
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  #37  
Old 07-22-2011, 09:19 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
Again, I hardly see how this is responsive to the diavlog. Given the context, it suggests that the diavloggers would defend those things, and it seemed pretty obvious to me that they would not.
The diavloggers are fine. Nobody's afraid of the diavloggers. But how many videos have we had about anti-Muslim sentiment and Islamophobia? If guests want to come and talk about it, that's fine. But for fuck's sake, don't act like you have no idea where the fear comes from. The guests will say things like, "Yes, the fear is somewhat troubling." All liberals nod in agreement.

Well, I agree that fear is troubling. Given that there are millions of Muslims and only a handful of them are terrorists. Yes, I get that. There's also the inconvenient fact that Muslims are doing most of the suicide bombings.

Apple goes way too far, but that's because he hates religion in general. His views would deny citizens the right to religion. But let's separate wheat from chaff here. It's not like he doesn't have a point. I'm all for talking about the problem of irrational Muslim fear. But let's also talk about how many Muslims hold beliefs that are antithetical to our ideals of a free society.

Quote:
As miceelf said, if someone said they wouldn't hire American Jews or, say, Catholics, because those people have questionable loyalty, I'd criticize them harshly. I see no reason to put American Muslims in a different category.
If it's the private sphere, you should be able to do whatever you want.
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  #38  
Old 07-22-2011, 10:00 AM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Apple goes way too far, but that's because he hates religion in general.
That is actually not true, I only hate unenlightened religion. I hate Islam most of all, because it's the religion where extremism is mainstream, and because it's the most unenlightened religion out there.

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
His views would deny citizens the right to religion.
Untrue, but I do oppose special rights/protection for religions. I agree with Scalia in Employment Division v. Smith: "We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate."
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  #39  
Old 07-22-2011, 10:27 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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That is actually not true, I only hate unenlightened religion. I hate Islam most of all, because it's the religion where extremism is mainstream, and because it's the most unenlightened religion out there.
Yeah, there's no law that separates religion between enlightened and unenlightened. You go and feel free to form your PAC, though.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:33 AM
apple
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)

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Yeah, there's no law that separates religion between enlightened and unenlightened. You go and feel free to form your PAC, though.
Actually, there are many laws prohibiting the actions that unenlightened prescribe and allow. For example, stoning people is a crime, as is marrying children to sick old men.
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