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  #1  
Old 08-19-2008, 02:20 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Obama Pessimism

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  #2  
Old 08-19-2008, 02:27 PM
olmeta olmeta is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Cancel all the other Obama / race in America commentators scheduled for upcoming diavlogs. These guys are in another league.
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  #3  
Old 08-19-2008, 02:46 PM
1mpossible 1mpossible is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

i'm in full agreement with the above post; i pop in to bloggingheads.tv every day hoping for a loury/mcwhorter appearance.
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  #4  
Old 08-19-2008, 02:46 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Loury seems to assume that things would have been better with his girl Clinton.

Who herself was just as much a product of image vs. substance. (her alleged foreign policy "experience" consisted of a variety of trips as first lady).
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  #5  
Old 08-19-2008, 03:07 PM
anyfreeman anyfreeman is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

thoughtful commentary. My current question: How come the identification of Obama as 'mixed race' is so underplayed. With his history and background, it is more accurate as a point in fact. This framing of Obama as "black" seems so....20th century, and limits the discussion to a backward looking context of black-only aspirations. this is a loss to the multi-cultural reality that is America 2008. Perhaps it also plays to 'ground' the perceptual argument, and to tamp down the post-race definition that polled so well in the primaries.
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  #6  
Old 08-19-2008, 03:08 PM
sp3akthetruth sp3akthetruth is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

I was thinking the same thing. He is infatuated with Clinton and his anger towards Obama is obvious every diavlog. I find it funny that I agree with John more often than Glenn when my politics are more inline with Glenn.

Also, Clarence Thomas is a horrible justice. He has not asked a question in over two years, who is an ideologue.

Last edited by sp3akthetruth; 08-19-2008 at 03:24 PM..
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  #7  
Old 08-19-2008, 03:13 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

And the whole notion that Hillary Clinton would have been having the kind of high-minded disputation about the meaning of evil in taht forum is just laughable. He really doesn't seem to see how unfair and arbitrarily high a standard he is holding Obama to, relative to her.
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  #8  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:04 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
And the whole notion that Hillary Clinton would have been having the kind of high-minded disputation about the meaning of evil in taht forum is just laughable. He really doesn't seem to see how unfair and arbitrarily high a standard he is holding Obama to, relative to her.
I'm happy to have Obama be himself, miceelf.
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  #9  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:24 PM
ohcomeon ohcomeon is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

I agree one minute - disagree the next. I see both sides - I see neither side. No matter - these two are the best. Bloggingheads. ever.
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  #10  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:37 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

"The candidacy is so freighted..."

Unlike Hillary's ? Glenn. Get fucking real.
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  #11  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:41 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by sp3akthetruth View Post
I I find it funny that I agree with John more often than Glenn when my politics are more inline with Glenn.
I can't fully fathom where Glenn stands politically. Knowing a little about his history and have read some of his work and listening to him on bhtv leaves me unsure? He is clearly focused on the meaning of politics. Not only does he find Obama's approach to politics suspect, if not bankrupt, he admires McCain's saber rattling (Georgia) and Joe Scarborough's regular guy shtik.
I sense a return to his earlier conservative roots, that he is not owning completely.
I think that he shares with John, but for different reasons, a desire to transcend racial politics. But, he can't be any clearer about his resentment of the "Hyde Parkness" that the Obama's represent to him.
He clearly thinks Mccain is "Presidential" enough. And when prompted by John to denounce the likely result of McCain's ascendancy... Nothing but crickets.
Maybe I do fathom his politics, after all.

Last edited by graz; 08-19-2008 at 08:15 PM..
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  #12  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:42 PM
Mr. Mayhem Mr. Mayhem is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Mr. Loury mentioned Andrew Bacevich as a prominent critic of the Global War on Terror. He has a new book out and would be a fantastic "get" for Bloggingheads. He's an impressive guy. Powers That Be, please consider approaching him to do a diavlog.

Loury and McWhorter are two of my favorite Bloggingheads, and it is always a pleasure to watch them. McWhorter gives me real hope about a potential Obama presidency, in contrast to many of the other pro-Obama Bloggingheads. In this diavlog, however, Loury's point about the Clarence Thomas remark seems dead on. That seems like the last thing Obama would want to raise. Likewise, the whole "cone of silence" thing seems like the petty response of a campaign surprised by the strength of its opponent. Is it too much of a stretch to compare that to the reaction of the Clinton campaign when Obama emerged as a strong challenger? Maybe it is.

A brief word on Star Wars... I don't consider myself to be quite the Stuff White People Like type, but if you had asked me about my reaction to Star Wars Episode 1 shortly after I saw it, I might have brought up the Jar Jar Binks thing, as well as the other broad ethnic stereotyping (the bad guys and their Asian-ish accents, and the big-nosed Jewish stereotype blue flying guy who owns Anakin and his mother). It might be the single easiest thing to put one's finger on in describing why that movie was kind of a disappointment. There was plenty more that was disappointing in that movie, of course, but the ethnic angle was a completely tone deaf aspect of the film that was easy to pick out and might have been the first thing I mentioned if asked shortly after seeing the movie. That said, McWhorter may be entirely right about the people he overheard.

I don't know if John McWhorter reads these comments, but if he does, he should check out Black Landlord if he hasn't already.

Apologies for the highly disjointed comment... these guys are great fun to watch and they spark a lot of semi-unrelated thoughts....
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  #13  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:46 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Loury's reactions remind me of some Jewish friends back in 2000 with Lieberman. I remember them saying stuff like, "Who needs the trouble?", "Leave us Jews out of it," and "This is going to hurt us in the end." And I totally understand it. But Obama has too much going for him.
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  #14  
Old 08-19-2008, 05:02 PM
benjy benjy is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Fantastic. Great to be back in the wonderful world of high quality Bloggingheads discussion. I should've counted to ten yesterday and waited for my BhTV universe to be restored to its proper equilibrium once the pros came back. I take back what I said yesterday--you don't need people from both sides of the spectrum necessarily, just really smart, curious, engaged, thoughtful people. That's it. Smart people equals great discussions, and John and Glenn are at the top of the list. Its such a pleasure to listen to discourse like this--the ideas are the ones that really matter, and the use of language is word perfect. Thanks guys. I don't have literally all day to type out a response to the various arguments and points made, so a general lauding will have to do

Alright, can't resist a couple things though First, that maybe John was a little harsh on Herbert--of course the guy is and knows he's smart, way smarter than the average person. Maybe on some level John has something, but I can't imagine Herbert or other African-Americans that are that smart actually thinking they're worse than others. I guess John is saying on some deep-seated psychological level, not a conscious one, I don't know. But someone like Herbert obviously knows he's very smart, and Obama's a super talent, so I'd imagine more that he's just extra-sensitive to that talent being held back by race...
On Saddleback its true it was a subpar performance for Obama and a good one for McCain, and Obama's got to be more open, passionate, direct, anecdotal, and less professorial to the extent he's able in those type of interviews in front of audiences. But I didn't see the Thomas mentioning as as disastrous as Glenn did--in fact on the reverse side I thought it might play well to whites because he's a black man saying this other black man wasn't qualified, i.e., telling what he sees as the truth whether its about a black person or a white one. And he's so clearly of superior ability to Thomas that I wouldn't make the connection Glenn did, but there I could be overestimating the importance of logic, which somehow I still do sometimes even after living through a few elections in the U.S. of A.

As for my suggestion for similarly high quality discussions of economics encompassing both the nitty-gritty of policy and its effects on output, wages, etc., and the fact that budgets are moral documents and an expression of what we value as a society, if you have a team of this quality in that area I haven't come across it yet. (If someone knows where to find it in the archives I'd be much obliged, and if its not there, pleeeeez can we have one? ). Actually I bet these two could do it themselves. How about discussions of the various major issues at play in the election, some combination of how they play out electorally and in opinion polls, and the ultimate philosophical/moral/justice/liberty/practical possibility/whatever ramifications of said issues in the run-up to the election.... Ehhh?? (To be read with a Jewish accent )

Last edited by benjy; 08-19-2008 at 07:01 PM..
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  #15  
Old 08-19-2008, 05:06 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Obama's fitness for the Presidency = Clarence Thomas' fitness for the Supreme Court. No, Glenn. I don't think so. If that made any sense at all, he'd already be toast and you'd be able to vote for your girl in November and wouldn't be harboring this bullshit bitterness toward Barack.
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  #16  
Old 08-19-2008, 05:14 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Apparently Glenn's subscription to the Atlantic has run out, or he'd be embarrassed by his persistent Clintonphilia. The funny thing about so much of this discourse is that it's predicated on the notion that Hillary was the smart pol and Obama was an idealistic naif. This turned out to be total bullshit - Hillary couldn't manage a goddam presidential political campaign, i.e. couldn't handle those 3am phone calls in the course of her quest, but Glenn still thinks she was the solution to whatever problems Democrats face.

And I have to say that the discussion of Bob Herbert was unbelievably arrogant and guttersniping on the part of both of these guys.
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  #17  
Old 08-19-2008, 05:20 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

On the "evil" thing - Obama was in a religious forum and he answered the question precisely as any Niebuhrian Christian would answer it in that context. Even Rick Warren, who's a lightweight theologically, "got it." McCaiin answered it the way a hubristic moron would tackle it. Which also obviously had a certain appeal for "Pastor Rick" for the usual unfortunate reasons. But for "smart guys", both McWhorter and Loury are showing a certain cluelessness here.
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  #18  
Old 08-19-2008, 05:22 PM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
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Default No!: It's "Realism" about Obama

These two are one of the best pairings on BHTV.

Well, yes, one might indeed be pessimistic about Obama's chances. (I've been so for over a year now.)

What's nice here is to get an airing of the realism underlying the pessimism, one which is not simply stuck in the themes unique to the Primary battle. (Nice to see McWhorter being so out-front about it.)

(BTW, fair number of folks here are still stuck in trash-HRC mode. Get over it. The Primary's over, and, no, that's not where Glenn is coming from here, so why slander him with that? Weren't you listening? He's just a realist who like many of us, refused to swig the kool-aid.)

In spite of my pessimism about Obama, I hope he chooses Biden as VP (my original Primary preference who could have taken McCain to the cleaners, no problem), gets off his arrogance-and-artifice hobby-horse, and learns how to shoot real bullets. Otherwise, he's as good as dead meat and bound to be the great shame of the Democratic party for decades to come for pulling the big con with no real juice to back it up.

Thanks to both. Looking forward to the promised post-convention DV by these two.

EW
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2008, 05:35 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

I am far more over the primary than Loury appears to be. While it's impossible to know the heart of another, he stated he was supporting Clinton earlier numerous times, and his disproportionate bitterness must be coming from SOMEWHERE.

I repeat. He's holding Obama to a standard he would not have had for any other politician, and certainly one that Clinton would never live up to.

On one hand, he's upset that Obama didn't expositate on the deeper meanings underlying what we mean when we say evil, on the other hand, he admires John McCain's "straight talk" one line answers that contain nothing of substance whatsoever.

I'm not a big fan of either of these guys, but Loury was always more sympathetic to me, even during the primaries. But this is getting old.

The only way Obama matches Clarence Thomas is if one assumes everything that Clinton (and now McCain) said about him was true. Given that even she didn't believe half of what she was saying, Loury may be the only one who believes that.
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  #20  
Old 08-19-2008, 05:47 PM
Xelgaex Xelgaex is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Quote:
if you had asked me about my reaction to Star Wars Episode 1 shortly after I saw it, I might have brought up the Jar Jar Binks thing, as well as the other broad ethnic stereotyping
At the danger of getting a little off topic, my first reaction would have been irritation that Anakin destroys the enemy virtually by accident (same with Jar Jar on the ground). Second probably would have been that Jar Jar was just annoying. If we talked at length about it then we might get the racial stuff.

So I have to agree with what John was saying. You might notice it, but to have it be the first thing you mention when someone asks you is a little much.

BTW I'm a sucker for horns in music so I like the link you provided.
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  #21  
Old 08-19-2008, 06:08 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Incidentally, both John and Glenn display incredible naivete in their claims about how off-the-hook Bob Herbert was in discussing subtexts and imagery in McCain's ads.

Check this out:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/ar...830590,00.html

Amy Suilivan is about as non-hysterical as you can find among pundits who follow these things. But she makes a clear-cut case for exactly the type of subliminal shit Herbert was talking about. This is Advertising 101 and to assume McCain's ad guys aren't deep into this is willfuly ignorant. McCain's team are playing ALL of the cards. Scoff at your peril.
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  #22  
Old 08-19-2008, 06:15 PM
John M John M is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Dear My Friends,

Here's some straight talk:

First off, McWhorter and Loury are both Muslims.

Not Islamofascists, but more like Malcolm X types. Race this, race this. That's all they can talk about. It's divisive as heck, my friends. Un-American.

My Friends, we are beyond so-called "race" in these UNITED States of America. My whole cabinet might be black. Or white maybe. Or purple. I'm color blind. (And a little hard of hearing, but no signs of dementia. Clean bill of health from my gerontologist.)

I am glad these two did take Bob Herbert to task on my Britney/Paris ad. The ad had NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX, much less miscegenation, which, incidentally, I do not think should be illegal.

How many times do I have to say that photomontages of B. Hussein Obama with young blonde sluts who are famous for oral sex porn tapes and/or getting photographed with their legs spread without panties are completely unrelated to black men and sex?

Now, as for you, my friend Bcruds,

Quote:
McCaiin answered it the way a hubristic moron would tackle it. Which also obviously had a certain appeal for "Pastor Rick" for the usual unfortunate reasons.
I don't know what "hubristic" means in Mexican or whatever, but I am no moron.

I didn't talk to Pastor Rick in complicated phraseologies and whatnot. I gave him Straight Talk: A zygote is a person. Period. Even if it's smaller than a period.

Furthermore, on Day One at 3 a.m., when we are surrounded by Al Qaeda, Iranians and Russians, we won't be worrying about blastocysts. We'll be worrying about blasting Putin and Ahmadinejad to kingdom come.

We're all Georgians now, My Friends. Ba-ba-bomb Iran!

God Bless America! (not "god d***, America" as Mcwhorter and Loury say)
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  #23  
Old 08-19-2008, 06:21 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
Incidentally, both John and Glenn display incredible naivete in their claims about how off-the-hook Bob Herbert was in discussing subtexts and imagery in McCain's ads.

Check this out:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/ar...830590,00.html

Amy Suilivan is about as non-hysterical as you can find among pundits who follow these things. But she makes a clear-cut case for exactly the type of subliminal shit Herbert was talking about. This is Advertising 101 and to assume McCain's ad guys aren't deep into this is willfuly ignorant. McCain's team are playing ALL of the cards. Scoff at your peril.

Glenn and John didn't even make a case against the subliminal implications of the imagery 101. What they expressed was their hang-ups about the implications of the complaint by a black man, and the further assosciation made by whites. They are more than smart enough to understand it, they just choose not to examine it and contend with it.
It will not be read by all people the same way. And no single interpretation is definitive. But to deny the possibility of effect of the subtext is willful ignorance for such esteemed observers.
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  #24  
Old 08-19-2008, 06:44 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

For my good friend East West: Since I've sworn off the Kool-Aid, I've come to the realization tht I want more of those Progressive Democratic campaigns run by hyper-competent professional lobbyists for paragons of decency like Colombian president Alvaro Uribe. Also, we need more highly visible surrogates like Lanny Davis, who supported Joe Lieberman AFTER he lost the primary to Ned Lamont. I feel so much better now that I'm aligned with the serious progressives.
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  #25  
Old 08-19-2008, 07:21 PM
Michael Michael is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

What a fantastic diavlog!!! Canīt wait for the sequel....
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  #26  
Old 08-19-2008, 07:53 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Five minutes in...

Gosh, I don't think I've seen Glenn so happy in a long time. He seems positively ecstatic that Obama's prospects appear to be dwindling.

I used to have a lot of respect for Glenn. Now he giggles with delight at the horrible fate that will befall the nation and the world when McCain -- who Glenn has been helping into the White House -- wins the election.

I used to like Glenn.

Hopefully Glenn shows some appropriate concern for the impending McCain administration in the remaining 50 minutes of this diavlog.

Maybe after Glenn's efforts to destroy America's best chance to pull out of this 8 year nose dive succeeds, he will feel some remorse for his role in making it happen. Or maybe he'll just be more delighted.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 08-19-2008 at 07:57 PM..
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  #27  
Old 08-19-2008, 08:16 PM
Xelgaex Xelgaex is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Quote:
Incidentally, both John and Glenn display incredible naivete in their claims about how off-the-hook Bob Herbert was in discussing subtexts and imagery in McCain's ads.

Check this out:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/ar...830590,00.html
First off, let's get a little context. Here's the clip Glenn is talking about. I was watching Morning Joe when it came on too. Bob Herbert goes much farther than just the white women, black man claim and asserts that the tower is a phallic symbol and that it is the Tower of Pisa and the Washington Monument when it's actually the Victory Column that Obama gave a speech at in Berlin. And that made him look ridiculous.

By the way, why did you link to an article about a different McCain ad? I assume that you are arguing that if he did it in one ad, he did it in this one, but you don't really make that clear. Besides couldn't the "crying wolf" argument be made here? It might be better to ignore the ad about which a rather tenuous argument could be made and focus on the one which a better argument could be made.
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  #28  
Old 08-19-2008, 08:34 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

The more I consider the context of polling, the demonstrated competence of the respective campaigns, the ingrained qualities of the candidates and the competing ground games being put into place, the more I'm convinced that John McCain has an rendevous with Destiny come November.

He's going to be the Greatest Spokesman Ever for Viagra.
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  #29  
Old 08-19-2008, 08:43 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

I didn't see Herbert - Morning Joe is way too stupid a "news" show to bother with - so it's not my biz to defend or demean him. Given the obvious attempt to link Obama to white sluts, the phallic stuff isn't much of a stretch.

What I do know that it's unlikely any image in these ads is accidental. Sullivan's article makes what I consider a compelling case that the people doing McCain's ads are tapping deep in the gutter of gross pathologies that afflict various and sundry of the GOP base. "We are operating on many levels here."
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  #30  
Old 08-19-2008, 08:51 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
I didn't see Herbert - Morning Joe is way too stupid a "news" show to bother with - so it's not my biz to defend or demean him. Given the obvious attempt to link Obama to white sluts, the phallic stuff isn't much of a stretch.

What I do know that it's unlikely any image in these ads is accidental. Sullivan's article makes what I consider a compelling case that the people doing McCain's ads are tapping deep in the gutter of gross pathologies that afflict various and sundry of the GOP base. "We are operating on many levels here."
Personally, I found Herbert's case reasonable. There's no way to prove what was in the mind of the scummy Republicans who made it, but as you say, these are Republicans we're talking about; they would be perfectly happy to inject subliminal racism into the campaign. Racism is the lifeblood of the Republican Party.

I have to admit, it's painful to watch Glenn Loury doing the work of Karl Rove and Lee Atwater and George Wallace, doing whatever he can to smash our hopes of keeping McCain out of the White House, and three more Scalias off the Supreme Court. Loury's getting up there in years. He won't suffer the brunt of his efforts. It's his children and grandchildren will watch the Bush/McCain Court roll back the progress made in this country since the passage of the 14th Amendment. Glenn is clueless if he doesn't think that's exactly where the Republicans are going to take this country if Glenn succeeds in his efforts to help Karl Rove achieve victory in November.

Thanks for nothing, Glenn. Thanks for doing everything you can to sabatoge the Democratic Party, and then lean back giggling with giddy delight when you feel the McCain victory coming together.
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  #31  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:00 PM
Namazu Namazu is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

I think John is way too optimistic. Mark my words: within a few election after Obama's (nearly certain) loss, the Great Mentioner will put into play another African-American candidate--let's call him Cory Booker for the sake of discussion--who in addition to being charismatic and inspirational, has a record not as a community "organizer," but as a community leader, but with none the brie-and-chardonnay Marxism. The Democratic party, being what it is, will say a) been there, done that, it didn't work, so let's not try again; b) it's another group's turn, and we have this terrific Hispanic lesbian from a swing state. Not pessimistic yet? I have more...
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  #32  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:03 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwest View Post
These two are one of the best pairings on BHTV.

Well, yes, one might indeed be pessimistic about Obama's chances. (I've been so for over a year now.)

What's nice here is to get an airing of the realism underlying the pessimism, one which is not simply stuck in the themes unique to the Primary battle. (Nice to see McWhorter being so out-front about it.)

(BTW, fair number of folks here are still stuck in trash-HRC mode. Get over it. The Primary's over, and, no, that's not where Glenn is coming from here, so why slander him with that? Weren't you listening? He's just a realist who like many of us, refused to swig the kool-aid.)

In spite of my pessimism about Obama, I hope he chooses Biden as VP (my original Primary preference who could have taken McCain to the cleaners, no problem), gets off his arrogance-and-artifice hobby-horse, and learns how to shoot real bullets. Otherwise, he's as good as dead meat and bound to be the great shame of the Democratic party for decades to come for pulling the big con with no real juice to back it up.

Thanks to both. Looking forward to the promised post-convention DV by these two.

EW
One of the challenges the Democrats face, one of the reasons it's hard for us to win presidential elections, is because people like you and Glenn want us to lose. Every bit of energy you and he invest in this campaign is intended to weaken the candidate. You might as well be a Republican. You're the functional equivalent of a wingnut. Perhaps worse, as attacks on two flanks are more difficult to contend with than attacks on just one.

Nothing seems to lift your and Glenn's spirits or bolster your self-regard as much as bad news for Democrats.

Heck, even when there is no bad news for Obama -- he's been leading all summer, albeit by a slowly declining margin -- you crow about how he's losing. It's people like you who are going to doom this country to three more Scalia's on the Supreme Court and an irreversibly entrenched Republican fascism. For the life of me I don't understand why that makes men like you and Glenn so gosh darned happy.

Here's the deal: It's not about Glenn and his insecure jealousy of Obama, or his need to win all those arguments he's been having with his wife. It's not about you or your bitterness over Hillary's defeat. Neither one of you seems able to see past your own personal feelings. You both know what's better for the nation, and you are both determined to make sure it doesn't happen.
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  #33  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:15 PM
sp3akthetruth sp3akthetruth is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
Glenn and John didn't even make a case against the subliminal implications of the imagery 101. What they expressed was their hang-ups about the implications of the complaint by a black man, and the further assosciation made by whites. They are more than smart enough to understand it, they just choose not to examine it and contend with it.
It will not be read by all people the same way. And no single interpretation is definitive. But to deny the possibility of effect of the subtext is willful ignorance for such esteemed observers.
I've often wondered what the true motivations of Glenn were. Even he doesn't seem willing to go there most of the time even with some real prodding. He'd rather tear down Obama's motives and actions than look into his own psyche. I also read the NY Times profile and I was struck by his own lack of awareness on his change in politics. But we do know he'd rather enjoys fluffing the Clinton's.
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  #34  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:21 PM
Namazu Namazu is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

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He's going to be the Greatest Spokesman Ever for Viagra.
More like Advil. Watch his facial expression when he tries to raise his arms.
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  #35  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:23 PM
sp3akthetruth sp3akthetruth is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Personally, I found Herbert's case reasonable. There's no way to prove what was in the mind of the scummy Republicans who made it, but as you say, these are Republicans we're talking about; they would be perfectly happy to inject subliminal racism into the campaign. Racism is the lifeblood of the Republican Party.
The biggest problem with Herbert's argument was that the towers were not cut ins of the leaning tower. They were in fact the Victory Tower, which stood or shall we say, was erected behind Obama during his Berlin speech. There was no subliminal message with the towers.
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  #36  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:29 PM
Namazu Namazu is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

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Racism is the lifeblood of the Republican Party.
Twinswords: I suggest you watch Clarence Page's C-SPAN interview Bruce Bartlett about his new book. It's never too late to fill some of the gaps in your education.

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?P...&PlayMedia=Yes
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  #37  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:30 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

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Originally Posted by Xelgaex View Post
asserts that the tower is [...] the Tower of Pisa and the Washington Monument
It's true he mixed it up with the Leaning Tower of Pisa, but it's not true he said it was the Washington Monument. Why are you claiming he did?
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  #38  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:31 PM
grits-n-gravy grits-n-gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Personally, I found Herbert's case reasonable. There's no way to prove what was in the mind of the scummy Republicans who made it, but as you say, these are Republicans we're talking about; they would be perfectly happy to inject subliminal racism into the campaign. Racism is the lifeblood of the Republican Party.

I thought Herbert made a reasonable case too. Instead of dismissing his argument as mere quackery I wish Glenn and John had answered Herbert's question: what were these phallic symbols doing in the ad? If John thinks this was a coincidence I suggest he psycho-analyze himself.
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:39 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

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Originally Posted by Namazu View Post
Twinswords: I suggest you watch Clarence Page's C-SPAN interview Bruce Bartlett about his new book. It's never too late to fill some of the gaps in your education.

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?P...&PlayMedia=Yes
Oh, how interesting. Thank you for the link. Tell me, does Clarance Page bring Holy Water to wash away the Republicans' 40 years of racial politics? Or does he wave a wand to make it magically disappear? However he does it, it's quite a feat! I wish my side had some liberal magicians who could make us immune to the gutter politics of hate praticed by your side.

I'm not exactly sure how one black Republican can absolve the Republican Party of what it has been doing methodically for four decades, but this just reveals my underlying refusal to recognize the Republican power to rewrite history.
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  #40  
Old 08-19-2008, 09:42 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama Pessimism

Perhaps John and Glenn can appear just once and not talk about race. Is that possible? Growing up I can count on one hand the number of times I heard my parents discuss race. However, they did not have PH.D.'s, nor attend church, and made their living in sales.

John

Last edited by bkjazfan; 08-19-2008 at 10:21 PM..
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