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  #11  
Old 07-16-2008, 09:02 PM
nkirby nkirby is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 22
Default Re: Under the Mattress

Quote:
harkin:
I don't believe Obama is a Muslim (much less a terrorist), but I also don't believe he's much of a Christian either because he apparently slept through or ignored years of sermons.. That's the only way to explain how someone as intelligent as BO could attend Trinity United Church Of Christ and have no clue whatsoever to what was going down there (otherwise you must come to the conclusion that he is a complete fraud who went to church to gain political capital and street cred - in Rev Wright's words, 'he says what he has to say as a politician').
You present a false dichotomy. Without actual knowledge about what Obama heard and thought about Rev. Wright's most controversial statements, how can you say must either be stupid or indifferent. The idea that people have to choose their church according to their politics is an overly simplistic analysis of faith. There are a multitude of reasons why people choose what church they go to, and the fact that American's don't usually dissect their leader's church life is a good tradition, because of the general irrelevance in a secular nation and the complexity of the question. In any case, you are merely assuming the worst and concluding the worst--hardly the deepest argument ever to be put forward.

By the way, "he says what he has to say as a politician" is a logical fallacy called "ad hominem"--basically, saying that someone would say what they say because of what or who they are does nothing to discredit them. For instance, you could say that Giants fans were just being biased when they predicted a Super Bowl victory, and they were biased--but they were also right.

Quote:
harkin:
What that means is that I discount the muslim talk just as much as I discount the 'hopity hopity change change' meme.......it's all just hot air to push a political point. I have no idea who BO is and I realize the only way to find out is if and when he reaches the White House. But I am certain of one thing about him, he's shown a nice ability to change his public stance on certain issues in inverse porportion to his ability to admit he's changing his public stance on certain issues. I've been asked why I don't like him more if he's in fact changing his stance to be more in line with my own personal beliefs. The simple and obvious answer is because I can't warm to any politician who seems to be without foundation and willing to tailor his speaking points based on whether he's talking to hard core lefties in February and March or moderates in June and July. Character and trust are more important than potentially empty promises.
I certainly hope that you wouldn't support a politician you generally disagree with, that would be irrational. On the other hand, I'm generally unimpressed with claims that Obama has changed his stance on issues. McCain played games with public financing, and Obama wouldn't dance. That people who don't like Obama so much would prefer he accept their tax money is confusing. As far as I can tell there's a lot of parsing of words in the supposed change in Obama's position in Iraq--which is fine for the pundits, but a poor guide for people choosing the next president. What else is there that people are concerned about? Wiretapping and retroactive immunity? This is just expecting Obama to stick his neck out for a losing argument. I agree that his position has changed since last year, but it's not exactly indicative of a policy position, generally--how could it be. Are these the shifts that make you think Obama has a poor character?

Let me finish by asking, aren't all promises potentially empty? It seems to me that poisoning the well does nothing to further discourse.
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