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  #1  
Old 12-04-2010, 05:07 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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  #2  
Old 12-04-2010, 05:46 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

Wow...this is an...interesting pairing. I'm no fan of Mark Krikorian's work, nor am I a fan of the SEIU.

A humble request: Mark K has been paired with two voices from the left. Can you pair him with a free market, pro-immigration conservative? I think that'd be quite productive, in part because it would illustrate how fundamentally anti-(American) conservative restrictionist policy advocates are, as opposed to relying on a more conventional, and not altogether accurate, left/right pairing.
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  #3  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:19 PM
jeffmaylortx
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Wow...this is an...interesting pairing. I'm no fan of Mark Krikorian's work, nor am I a fan of the SEIU.

I think that'd be quite productive, in part because it would illustrate how fundamentally anti-(American) conservative restrictionist policy advocates are, as opposed to relying on a more conventional, and not altogether accurate, left/right pairing.
Hold up there. Calling people who have a concern with uncontrolled immigration "Un-American" is uncalled for. The "restrictionist" policies being considered would mainly return immigration to its historic levels. So unless we want to call the first 180 years of American history "Un-American", you should try thinking before you speak.
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  #4  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:22 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by jeffmaylortx View Post
Hold up there ... you should try thinking before you speak.
Speak ... or type ... whichever ... we have consensus.
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  #5  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by jeffmaylortx View Post
Hold up there. Calling people who have a concern with uncontrolled immigration "Un-American" is uncalled for. The "restrictionist" policies being considered would mainly return immigration to its historic levels. So unless we want to call the first 180 years of American history "Un-American", you should try thinking before you speak.
Oh I meant the American definition of conservative, not anti-American. I tend to stay away from "anti-American" labeling.
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  #6  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:31 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by jeffmaylortx View Post
Hold up there. Calling people who have a concern with uncontrolled immigration "Un-American" is uncalled for.
The hilarity of jeffmaylortx finding sub-group labels offensive cannot be overstated.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 12-04-2010 at 08:35 PM..
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  #7  
Old 12-05-2010, 01:35 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by jeffmaylortx View Post
[...]


"The Texas Republican Party Reaches Out to Hispanics," by Ben Sargent

(background)
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  #8  
Old 12-06-2010, 02:37 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Wow...this is an...interesting pairing. I'm no fan of Mark Krikorian's work, nor am I a fan of the SEIU.

A humble request: Mark K has been paired with two voices from the left. Can you pair him with a free market, pro-immigration conservative? I think that'd be quite productive, in part because it would illustrate how fundamentally anti-(American) conservative restrictionist policy advocates are, as opposed to relying on a more conventional, and not altogether accurate, left/right pairing.
I haven't listened to this yet, but as a general matter I agree with what you say here.

In fact, I think it would make sense to have a debate about the issue between two on the left and between two on the right (I'd probably include related matters for the left-side of the debate, such as trade policy issues), rather than pretend like it's a right/left issue primarily.
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  #9  
Old 12-19-2010, 03:58 PM
stari_momak stari_momak is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

There is nothing conservative about the mass importation of cheap labor. There is nothing American about wanting to see the country remade demographically.

Try the libertarian label, buddy (although pro-mass immigration libertarians are idiots politically and economically as well).
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  #10  
Old 12-04-2010, 07:49 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

The DREAM Act is only about one thing, a huge infusion of voters into the dwindling number of Americans who consider themselves progressive/liberal. Don't take my word for it, listen to the SEIU/Democratic Socialists Of America. The amnesty for those who were brought into the U.S. by criminal parents will be followed by the amnesty to prevent the breaking up of families, bank on it.

As to the question of whether the DREAM Act will encourage or curb illegal immigration, one need only consider the 20 million illegals who have arrived since the 1986 Amnesty Act to formulate an answer. If the act's sponsors' promises of a secure border had been kept, the United States would be in much better fiscal and legal shape today (and CA prisons would have many less occupants).

Americans should refuse all attempts at immigration reform until the borders are secured (not closed, secure). Obama is already pulling out the National Guard he used as an election gimmick (funny how the NYTimes, CBS, ABC, WaPo, The Atlantic, Huffington, MSNBC......all the news services who reported repeatedly on the White House's Sept move to increase border security now sit mum as the troops are scheduled to be pulled out). Congresional fact-checkers on Obamacare also show he was lying when he said illegals would not be eligible. Maybe he can get the President of Mexico back to lecture us again on how backward and racist we are.

Let's see.......amnesty, taxpayer-provided health care for illegals and decreasing border surveillance........yep, that ought to deter future illegals.
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  #11  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:21 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
The DREAM Act is only about one thing, a huge infusion of voters into the dwindling number of Americans who consider themselves progressive/liberal. Don't take my word for it, listen to the SEIU/Democratic Socialists Of America. The amnesty for those who were brought into the U.S. by criminal parents will be followed by the amnesty to prevent the breaking up of families, bank on it.

As to the question of whether the DREAM Act will encourage or curb illegal immigration, one need only consider the 20 million illegals who have arrived since the 1986 Amnesty Act to formulate an answer. If the act's sponsors' promises of a secure border had been kept, the United States would be in much better fiscal and legal shape today (and CA prisons would have many less occupants).

Americans should refuse all attempts at immigration reform until the borders are secured (not closed, secure). Obama is already pulling out the National Guard he used as an election gimmick (funny how the NYTimes, CBS, ABC, WaPo, The Atlantic, Huffington, MSNBC......all the news services who reported repeatedly on the White House's Sept move to increase border security now sit mum as the troops are scheduled to be pulled out). Congresional fact-checkers on Obamacare also show he was lying when he said illegals would not be eligible. Maybe he can get the President of Mexico back to lecture us again on how backward and racist we are.

Let's see.......amnesty, taxpayer-provided health care for illegals and decreasing border surveillance........yep, that ought to deter future illegals.
You're assuming most of these illegal immigrants are liberal progressives. They aren't. Most of them are devout catholics coming here to make a better life for their families. If they vote mostly for Democrats its not because they agree with democrats more then republicans on most of the issues----its because people like you give them the impression that right wingers are hateful people who can't tell the difference between a person trying to make a better life for their families and 'criminals'. Yes--it is extremely insensitive to call a poor migrant worker trying to make a better life for their family a 'criminal'. I can't blame them if they view it as hateful--I would if I were in their place--wouldn't you? Think about it.


I agree that the borders should be secure. We can secure the border and stop illegal immigration, with zero tolerance, AND be nice about it. It really is possible. Its as simple as realizing these are mostly good people--in fact heroic who work hard and in many cases risk their lives to provide a better life for their family. Recognizing this doesn't mean we can't secure the border. Being insensitive or hateful to them only creates more sympathy for them and alienation toward the haters in the republican party--i can't blame them. As a republican myself--i find this distressing.

Last edited by whburgess; 12-04-2010 at 08:24 PM..
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  #12  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:25 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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You're assuming most of these illegal immigrants are liberal progressives. They aren't. Most of them are devout catholics coming here to make a better life for their families. If they vote mostly for Democrats its not because they agree with democrats more then republicans on most of the issues----its because people like you give them the impression that right wingers are hateful people who can't tell the difference between a person trying to make a better life for their families and 'criminals'. Yes--it is extremely insensitive to call a poor migrant worker trying to make a better life for their family a 'criminal'. I can't blame them if they view it as hateful--I would if I were in their place--wouldn't you? Think about it.


I agree that the borders should be secure. We can secure the border and stop illegal immigration, with zero tolerance, AND be nice about it. It really is possible. Its as simple as realizing these are mostly good people--in fact heroic who work hard and in many cases risk their lives to provide a better life for their family. Recognizing this doesn't mean we can't secure the border. Being insensitive or hateful to them only creates more sympathy for them and alienation toward the haters in the republican party--i can't blame them. As a republican myself--i find this distressing.
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  #13  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
You're assuming most of these illegal immigrants are liberal progressives. They aren't. Most of them are devout catholics coming here to make a better life for their families. If they vote mostly for Democrats its not because they agree with democrats more then republicans on most of the issues----its because people like you give them the impression that right wingers are hateful people who can't tell the difference between a person trying to make a better life for their families and 'criminals'. Yes--it is extremely insensitive to call a poor migrant worker trying to make a better life for their family a 'criminal'. I can't blame them if they view it as hateful--I would if I were in their place--wouldn't you? Think about it.


I agree that the borders should be secure. We can secure the border and stop illegal immigration, with zero tolerance, AND be nice about it. It really is possible. Its as simple as realizing these are mostly good people--in fact heroic who work hard and in many cases risk their lives to provide a better life for their family. Recognizing this doesn't mean we can't secure the border. Being insensitive or hateful to them only creates more sympathy for them and alienation toward the haters in the republican party--i can't blame them. As a republican myself--i find this distressing.
Yeah, I agree. Immigration naturally tends to lean toward the more industrious people, since moving to a new country is a very involving process. Having to do so through non-traditional means is even more harrowing for people, many of whom have to cross over very rough terrain. I have a basic philosophy that government shouldn't get in the way of decent people making a living for themselves; that doesn't just hold to people who were fortunate enough to have been born here.
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  #14  
Old 12-19-2010, 04:03 PM
stari_momak stari_momak is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

The myth of hispanic family values is false. Latinos have higher rates of teen births and abortions than 'Anglos' do.

As for industriousness -- well, maybe. But the guy pushing a cart with <i>elotes</i> or selling bags of oranges on the center divider, however industrious, isn't an addition to my society.
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  #15  
Old 12-05-2010, 11:46 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
You're assuming most of these illegal immigrants are liberal progressives. They aren't. Most of them are devout catholics coming here to make a better life for their families. If they vote mostly for Democrats its not because they agree with democrats more then republicans on most of the issues----its because people like you give them the impression that right wingers are hateful people who can't tell the difference between a person trying to make a better life for their families and 'criminals'. Yes--it is extremely insensitive to call a poor migrant worker trying to make a better life for their family a 'criminal'. I can't blame them if they view it as hateful--I would if I were in their place--wouldn't you? Think about it.


I agree that the borders should be secure. We can secure the border and stop illegal immigration, with zero tolerance, AND be nice about it. It really is possible. Its as simple as realizing these are mostly good people--in fact heroic who work hard and in many cases risk their lives to provide a better life for their family. Recognizing this doesn't mean we can't secure the border. Being insensitive or hateful to them only creates more sympathy for them and alienation toward the haters in the republican party--i can't blame them. As a republican myself--i find this distressing.
Well said.
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  #16  
Old 12-06-2010, 09:10 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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You're assuming most of these illegal immigrants are liberal progressives. They aren't. Most of them are devout catholics coming here to make a better life for their families. If they vote mostly for Democrats its not because they agree with democrats more then republicans on most of the issues----its because people like you give them the impression that right wingers are hateful people who can't tell the difference between a person trying to make a better life for their families and 'criminals'.
Illegal immigrants can't vote.
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  #17  
Old 12-06-2010, 12:23 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Illegal immigrants can't vote.
Yes, I know. I was responding to Harkins statement that liberal progressives want to grant illegals citizenship so they have more voters voting for them. He was talking about illegals as future voters and so was I.

But it goes further then even illegals---I think Latino citizens whose parents or grandparents or other relatives may have been illegals are understandably offended at hearing their loved ones referred to as 'criminals'..and many of them who would otherwise vote for conservatives find themselves repulsed by this kind of talk from the right.
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  #18  
Old 12-06-2010, 12:30 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Yes, I know. I was responding to Harkins statement that liberal progressives want to grant illegals citizenship so they have more voters voting for them. He was talking about illegals as future voters and so was I.

But it goes further then even illegals---I think Latino citizens whose parents or grandparents or other relatives may have been illegals are understandably offended at hearing their loved ones referred to as 'criminals'..and many of them who would otherwise vote for conservatives find themselves repulsed by this kind of talk from the right.
Nice job calling out harkin -- and conservatives more broadly -- for their hate speech. Indeed, for their hate.

Oh, would that there were more like you. Sadly, you just don't fit into the modern GOP. At least you're speaking out against them.
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  #19  
Old 12-06-2010, 01:17 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Nice job calling out harkin -- and conservatives more broadly -- for their hate speech. Indeed, for their hate.

Oh, would that there were more like you. Sadly, you just don't fit into the modern GOP. At least you're speaking out against them.
This kind of speech is not only on the right among the general public. I work with more democrats then republicans--and most of these blue collar union democrats say worse things then Harkin has said here, about illegal mexicans.

They would never vote anything other then democrat because they are too brainwashed by the union. But their hatred toward those 'job stealing' illegals is quite vitriolic.
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  #20  
Old 12-06-2010, 09:28 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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But it goes further then even illegals---I think Latino citizens whose parents or grandparents or other relatives may have been illegals are understandably offended at hearing their loved ones referred to as 'criminals'..and many of them who would otherwise vote for conservatives find themselves repulsed by this kind of talk from the right.
Or maybe not. It wouldn't be beyond imagination that people who have come here legally wouldn't feel so kindly towards those who don't/haven't. And even those who came here illegally would have some understanding of the dilemma the US is in. And as you said in another post the ugly rhetoric isn't just from the right.

BTW, I still use the term illegal to describe those we are discussing because it's accurate. What really bugs me is to use the word 'mexican' to denote a worker as in (I'm sure you've heard this) "I'm going to hire a Mexican to build that wall. I really hate that.
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  #21  
Old 12-07-2010, 02:47 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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BTW, I still use the term illegal to describe those we are discussing ...
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  #22  
Old 12-07-2010, 02:46 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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... want to grant illegals citizenship ...

But it goes further then even illegals--- ...
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  #23  
Old 12-19-2010, 04:13 PM
stari_momak stari_momak is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

The problem with this line is that it restricts the anti-illegal, and broader restrictionist, argument. It becomes 'hateful' to point out that illegal aliens, however hard working. are as a group a drain on American society. Look at CIS -- they produce reams of well substantiated, cold-eyed research on the effects of immigration and yet they are still labeled as 'haters'.
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  #24  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:29 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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... one need only consider the 20 million illegals who have arrived ...
I understand that your racism and xenophobia are too deep-seated, but for the benefit of others:

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  #25  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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I understand that your racism and xenophobia are too deep-seated, but for the benefit of others:

Says the person who uses the term "teabaggers."

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  #26  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:37 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Says the person who uses the term "teabaggers."
Just following their self-appellation.
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Old 12-04-2010, 08:39 PM
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Just following their self-appellation.
Oh so if I find a single sign in a pro-immigration rally that uses the term "illegal," that justifies using the term to slander and dehumanize them?
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  #28  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:43 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Oh so if I find a single sign ...
Sorry. It's way more than just a single sign.
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  #29  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:44 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Sorry. It's way more than just a single sign.
Snark over substance. It's clear that your concerns about dehumanization are selective. If it's objectionable to dehumanize others by calling them unwanted names (and do not try to pretend that the vast majority of TPers find the term 'teabagger' to be objectionable), then don't do it. Don't do it, defend it, and then condemn others for doing the same thing.
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  #30  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:47 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Snark over substance. It's clear that your concerns about dehumanization are selective.
When people have ideas as stupid and hateful as the teabaggers do, it's hard to think of them as fully human.

Meanwhile, let's not forget who picked the name in the first place.
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  #31  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:55 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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When people have ideas as stupid and hateful as the teabaggers do, it's hard to think of them as fully human.
So, disagreeing with someone legitimizes using dehumanizing language. You just justified use of the term "illegal."

Quote:
Meanwhile, let's not forget who picked the name in the first place.
Let's not play semantical games.
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  #32  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:09 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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[...]

Let's not play semantical games.
Seems to me you just did.
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  #33  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:18 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Seems to me you just did.
You're trying to pretend that your usage of the term is no different than theirs. It would be like a racist justifying his usage of the term "nig(g)er" by noting that African Americans use it. So it's fine for David Duke to use it.
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  #34  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:20 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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You're trying to pretend ...
Update:

Oops. Wrong link originally.

Already addressed.
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  #35  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:19 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Seems to me you just did.
Tell you what I will do, though. If you (the operative) and your trainee, chiwhi, run around this board and admonish all those people for doing what you now seem to agree is offensive, and also speak up against those who use liberal and Democrat as a pejorative, and also chastise people like, most recently, jeffmaylortx, but also harkin and rcocean, among others, for their cryptoracist slurs, I will consider avoiding referring to teabaggers as teabaggers in the future.

Until then, penguin ...
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  #36  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:21 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Tell you what I will do, though. If you (the operative) and your trainee, chiwhi, run around this board and admonish all those people for doing what you now seem to agree is offensive, and also speak up against those who use liberal and Democrat as a pejorative, and also chastise people like, most recently, jeffmaylortx, but also harkin and rcocean, among others, for their cryptoracist slurs, I will consider avoiding referring to teabaggers as teabaggers in the future.

Until then, penguin ...
"I will refrain from referring to ni(g)gers as ni(g)gers." Sorry bj, it's up to you to rise above dehumanizing those who you disagree with. You can't pass the buck on this one. So either practice what you preach or step down from the pulpit.
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  #37  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:23 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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"I will refrain from referring to ni(g)gers as ni(g)gers."
Noted for the record, Lyle.
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  #38  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:26 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
"I will refrain from referring to ni(g)gers as ni(g)gers."
Do you think the parentheses provide an invisibility cloak perfesser?
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  #39  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:29 PM
operative operative is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,261
Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by graz View Post
Do you think the parentheses provide an invisibility cloak perfesser?
I'm pointing out the hypocricy of bj's statement by simply replacing one dehumanizing term with one that there's little disagreement over. The parenthesis is to avoid the filter.

bj doesn't want to live by the standard that he wants to hold everyone else to. That's his problem. He can be as big a hypocrite as he wants. But I and every other reasonable person is going to call him on it.
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  #40  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:33 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
bj doesn't want to live by the standard that he wants to hold everyone else to.
Neither do you, so stop wanking.

It's clear you and chiwhi are butthurt about a name your own side picked for itself, due to being out of touch with real America, only because it emphasizes how ridiculously out of touch you are. You let every other pejorative term on this board pass, especially as they're directed at the left or any non-white and/or non-Christian group.

Spare me your fauxtrage, little Malkin.
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