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  #121  
Old 01-03-2012, 07:12 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Let's do the (1930s) time warp again: The Ronny Horror Picture Show

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
I'm talking about this specific quote for the specific point, which is that human beings build metaphorical prisons for themselves all the time. It can be your addiction to alcohol, or an emotionally abusive relationship, or for the point I was making: never ending increases in government that takes away personal responsibility in place of a supposed social safety net, e.g., social security, medicare, etc., that ends up with a cure worse than the disease..
Or the tyranny of the completely arbitrary social convention of using a toilet to relieve onesself. Or driving on the right side of the road. Yes, people accept constraints on their behavior all of the time.

I am still not clear on how the cure, wrt social security or medicare is worse than the disease. That was kind of the premise of my initial question. In what way is social security worse than the system which preceded it?
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  #122  
Old 01-03-2012, 07:15 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Let's do the (1930s) time warp again: The Ronny Horror Picture Show

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
You don't seem to consider the Social Security funds to be linked with people's payroll taxes.
Your previous republican presidents certainly didn't think there was any particular link. They considered payroll taxes additional revenue that could be raided for any purpose under the sun for pet projects of any kind.

In any case, your objection appears to be that this is a tax which is accompanied by a particular benefit. Quel horreur!
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  #123  
Old 01-03-2012, 11:43 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Let's do the (1930s) time warp again: The Ronny Horror Picture Show

Quote:
Originally Posted by rfrobison View Post
I find it interesting that the very thing that Ron Paul's supporters love him for, and the very thing that his critics on the left give him credit for -- his "let's pack it in" isolationism -- is precisely what makes him anathema to me.
I don't agree with Paul's isolationism, but I think it's good to have an alternative to the interventionism of the other candidates expressed, yes. And while I wouldn't go as far as Paul does, he does call the others on some ridiculous statements. I probably wouldn't vote for someone with his foreign policy views even apart from all my other disagreements with him, but I think it's important to have those views expressed. It's rather insane if the foreign policy debate is purely between Obama and those who are trying to portray Obama as dangerously leftwing or reluctant to use force or whatever. That's hardly a reasonable spectrum.

Also, of course, the problem with trying to fit this all into the framework of past wars (WW2, especially) is that the issues are different and that one particular intervention may have been good doesn't mean all suggested ones are or are the obvious place to go first.

Wonderment's point, and while I'm not as idealistic as him I'm glad some are, is that the availability of force as an option means people are consistently too quick to see force as the only option and not take the steps that we should to deal with problems and threats in other ways. I think this is an important voice to have, just as I think serious consideration of the just war factors (the approach I tend to take) are important, and that we've been way too willing to blow through serious considerations of those factors.
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  #124  
Old 01-03-2012, 11:57 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
That's the essence of what I've been saying all these 100 or so posts.
Yes, and in that essence I don't disagree. It's the lofty language applied to Paul, the unrealistic expectations, and the offense when people bring up the newsletters, etc., that I think makes it irresistible for some of us not to argue.

But I don't think I've dismissed your primary points.

Ocean's point about it being a matter of priorities is significant. I think the newsletters aren't unimportant, because they so clearly reflect the problems with American politics, the immoral strategy that is no different than what Nixon et al. followed of using race baiting (and gay baiting and sexism, etc.) to promote a particular economic (and in this case, far right and whacky) agenda. I see that as broadly significant and I am not as bothered by Obama's foreign policy as you (in that I don't want or expect a pacifist Democratic Party, among other things), so I am going to be less willing to forgive it. That said, I think entirely apart from priorities is the fact that Paul has not been willing to cop to this or say it's wrong and, like I said before, it strikes me as more immoral than actual racism. It's encouraging racism in others despite knowing better, for cynical reasons. If he admitted it and acknowledged it as wrong, I'd easily forgive it, but he won't, because that would mean sacrificing support, and so long as he's unwilling to sacrifice the support from those corners I find the idea of supporting him just repulsive.

But I agree with you that he won't win and is saying things that need to be said (especially from your POV), so I do get where you are coming from. I just can't agree the other things that get talked about are irrelevant.

Same, btw, for his other problematic stances -- the goldbuggery, the Fed paranoia and other such conspiracy things, the attacks on all federal spending and however many gov't agencies, because we see this creeping into the mainstream dialogue and I see it as more likely to have an influence on the general election discussion -- pushing it right -- than the foreign policy stuff will. Perhaps I'm wrong. I hope so. But even in your blogger comparison, he's pushing the dialogue in multiple directions, and not just the one you like.

(On Johnson, I think he could win if he got the nomination. I agree that I can't see a way he could have actually gotten the nomination, Paul or not. I do think he could have played the blogger role you are talking about for Paul better than Paul, without the more damaging aspects of Paul doing so and with more willingness to support him on the left and among independents than Paul, perhaps meaning more genuine push on Obama. But that could still happen, I suppose. We will see.)

Last edited by stephanie; 01-03-2012 at 12:06 PM..
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  #125  
Old 01-03-2012, 12:03 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
RP's other positions (abolition of the FED, demolition of the welfare state, "states rights") are so nutty, so far from the mainstream of what even most Republicans would accept that they are unlikely to gain much traction, imo.
This may be the key difference between the various liberals on the board who are debating this. I wish I agreed with you here, but I don't.
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  #126  
Old 01-03-2012, 12:21 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
This may be the key difference between the various liberals on the board who are debating this. I wish I agreed with you here, but I don't.
Do you mean that you disagree with my assessment of mainstream Republicans? There actually are nutcases who want to abolish the FED etc?

As I said, my view is a view from afar. You, twinswords, ocean are in the thick of things.
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  #127  
Old 01-03-2012, 12:21 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

I'm in agreement with this, but I'd add that Paul's political problems don't just stem from his non-mainstream positions. I'd explain what his bigger problems are, but it would be easier to just quote this Kevin Drum post, with which I am in complete agreement:

Quote:
Can we talk? Ron Paul is not a charming oddball with a few peculiar notions. He's not merely "out of the mainstream." Ron Paul is a full bore crank. In fact he's practically the dictionary definition of a crank: a person who has a single obsessive, all-encompassing idea for how the world should work and is utterly blinded to the value of any competing ideas or competing interests....

Bottom line: Ron Paul is not merely a "flawed messenger" for these views. He's an absolutely toxic, far-right, crackpot messenger for these views. This is, granted, not Mussolini-made-the-trains-run-on-time levels of toxic, but still: if you truly support civil liberties at home and non-interventionism abroad, you should run, not walk, as fast as you can to keep your distance from Ron Paul. He's not the first or only person opposed to pre-emptive wars, after all, and his occasional denouncements of interventionism are hardly making this a hot topic of conversation among the masses. In fact, to the extent that his foreign policy views aren't simply being ignored, I'd guess that the only thing he's accomplishing is to make non-interventionism even more of a fringe view in American politics than it already is. Crackpots don't make good messengers.
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  #128  
Old 01-03-2012, 12:27 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Do you mean that you disagree with my assessment of mainstream Republicans? There actually are nutcases who want to abolish the FED etc?

As I said, my view is a view from afar. You, twinswords, ocean are in the thick of things.
I don't worry about the Fed actually being abolished, but I do worry that the strident hard-money views of the Paulites are more likely push the Fed to raise rates than their strident antiwar views are to have any meaningful impact on US foreign policy.
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  #129  
Old 01-03-2012, 12:30 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Do you mean that you disagree with my assessment of mainstream Republicans?
I disagree with how much traction those ideas have with a certain segment (not insubstantial) of Republicans and frequent Republican voters, yeah. And like DZ said, it's more about moving the conversation than Paul's ideas actually getting enacted, but I think there are a substantial segment who don't see the items you mentioned as self-evidently nutty.
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  #130  
Old 01-03-2012, 12:42 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
I don't worry about the Fed actually being abolished, but I do worry that the strident hard-money views of the Paulites are more likely push the Fed to raise rates than their strident antiwar views are to have any meaningful impact on US foreign policy.
I see your point.

I just read in the NY Times that Leon Panetta has announced substantial cuts in the Pentagon budget. That is the beginning of sanity.
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  #131  
Old 01-03-2012, 02:42 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
: if you truly support civil liberties at home and non-interventionism abroad, you should run, not walk, as fast as you can to keep your distance from Ron Paul. He's not the first or only person opposed to pre-emptive wars, after all, and his occasional denouncements of interventionism are hardly making this a hot topic of conversation among the masses. In fact, to the extent that his foreign policy views aren't simply being ignored, I'd guess that the only thing he's accomplishing is to make non-interventionism even more of a fringe view in American politics than it already is. Crackpots don't make good messengers.
Crackpot, wing nut, Paultard, racist, homphobe. I love when American politics degenerates to a junior high food fight level.

Shorter Kevin Drum: "If you truly support civil liberties and non-interventionism, you must slavishly support all Democrats."

THAT is a crackpot view (contrary to fact), based on the history of the national Democratic party up to and including the administration of Barack Obama.
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  #132  
Old 01-03-2012, 02:43 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Good post. I'm glad you fleshed out your position. I understand where you're coming from better now.
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  #133  
Old 01-03-2012, 03:09 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Crackpot, wing nut, Paultard, racist, homphobe. I love when American politics degenerates to a junior high food fight level.

Shorter Kevin Drum: "If you truly support civil liberties and non-interventionism, you must slavishly support all Democrats."

THAT is a crackpot view (contrary to fact), based on the history of the national Democratic party up to and including the administration of Barack Obama.
I don't think that's a fair reading of the Drum piece at all. My take on it, and this expresses my views as well, is that Paul is an extremely bad representative of the good positions that he does hold. Bundling good ideas on civil liberties with crank conspiracy theories about the border fence being used to keep us in or the evils of counterfeit-resistant money seems far more likely to discredit them than advance them. And as I've stated elsewhere, I think he's far more likely to have a practical impact on monetary policy, where his views are about as stupid and dangerous as can be imagined, than on foreign policy.
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  #134  
Old 01-03-2012, 03:24 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
...
Shorter Kevin Drum: "If you truly support civil liberties and non-interventionism, you must slavishly support all Democrats."

THAT is a crackpot view (contrary to fact), based on the history of the national Democratic party up to and including the administration of Barack Obama.
How about:

Support for a Democratic candidate appears to be a necessary, but not sufficient condition, if you support civil liberties and/or non-interventionism.

Let me point out that there isn't the slightest chance that Congress would provide strong support for Paul's (or any other Libertarian hard cases's) FP.
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  #135  
Old 01-03-2012, 03:41 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
And as I've stated elsewhere, I think he's far more likely to have a practical impact on monetary policy, where his views are about as stupid and dangerous as can be imagined, than on foreign policy.
Disagree. Here's why: The antiwar movement inspires people and they understand it. Monetary policy is arcane and boring for most people (including members of Congress).

Paul has already had a huge influence on millions of young peace activists. These are generally young conservatives and Evangelicals who are probably beyond the reach of the traditional left.
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  #136  
Old 01-03-2012, 03:45 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
How about:

Support for a Democratic candidate appears to be a necessary, but not sufficient condition, if you support civil liberties and/or non-interventionism.
Emphasis on "appears to be."
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  #137  
Old 01-03-2012, 03:59 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Disagree. Here's why: The antiwar movement inspires people and they understand it. Monetary policy is arcane and boring for most people (including members of Congress).
The arcane and boring aspect is the problem. The only monetary policy position with any populist energy behind it is Ron Paul's insane, economy-destroying hard money policy. If there were a countervailing political force that was crusading against the inflation hawks at the Fed, I'd worry less. And of course that's the trouble with your wishful thinking on foreign policy. People do care about foreign policy, which is why Paul is so unlikely to make a difference with his unpopular opinions on that front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Paul has already had a huge influence on millions of young peace activists. These are generally young conservatives and Evangelicals who are probably beyond the reach of the traditional left.
What kind of an influence? How many? Will any of these people support candidates for lower office that agree with you or Ron Paul on war or civil liberties? Will they primary excessively hawkish republican incumbents? If not, how on earth is this supposed to translate into policy change?
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  #138  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:03 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Even more Ron Paul: TNC has a must-read on problematic leaders who stand for causes that would otherwise be ignored:


Quote:
As surely as Ron Paul speaks to a real issue--the state's broad use of violence and surveillance--which the America's political leadership has failed to address, Farrakhan spoke to something real, something unsullied, which black America's political leadership failed to address, Both Paul and Farrakhan, in their glamour, inspired the young, the disaffected, the disillusioned.

To those who dimly perceived something wrong, something that could not be put on a placard, or could not move the party machine, men such as this become something more than political operators, they become symbols. Substantive charges against them, no matter the reasons, are dismissed. The movement they represent means more. But as sure as the followers of Farrakhan deserved more than UFOs, anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories, those of us who oppose the drug-war, who oppose the Patriot Act deserve better than Ron Paul
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  #139  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:11 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Even more Ron Paul: TNC has a must-read on problematic leaders who stand for causes that would otherwise be ignored:
Comparing Ron Paul with Farrakhan is obscene, and I don't even like Paul.
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  #140  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:12 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Comparing Ron Paul with Farrakhan is obscene, and I don't even like Paul.
Care to explain why?
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  #141  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:15 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
How about:

Support for a Democratic candidate appears to be a necessary, but not sufficient condition, if you support civil liberties and/or non-interventionism.

Let me point out that there isn't the slightest chance that Congress would provide strong support for Paul's (or any other Libertarian hard cases's) FP.
Keep in mind that the power that a President has, relative to Congress and domestic issues, in the FP space. A president can pretty much do what he wants on FP. In domestic policy he needs consensus.
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  #142  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:23 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Keep in mind that the power that a President has, relative to Congress and domestic issues, in the FP space. A president can pretty much do what he wants on FP. In domestic policy he needs consensus.
That requires the caveat that the president not care at all about reelection or the fate of his political allies in congress. Sure, a President Paul would formally have all kinds of power to change US foreign policy, but in practice the military has considerable political power and would do everything possible to resist Paul's policies. In that environment, I think Paul would pretty quickly discovering that a President with no allies or buy-in in Congress or the various agencies has a hard time accomplishing anything.
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  #143  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:26 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
That requires the caveat that the president not care at all about reelection or the fate of his political allies in congress. Sure, a President Paul would formally have all kinds of power to change US foreign policy, but in practice the military has considerable political power and would do everything possible to resist Paul's policies. In that environment, I think Paul would pretty quickly discovering that a President with no allies or buy-in in Congress or the various agencies has a hard time accomplishing anything.
I admit this may be perseveration on my part, but I keep going back to how such a president comes to power to begin with. Does he pretend to endorse militarism until after the votes are in and then do a 180? How does such a president get elected?
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  #144  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:28 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
I admit this may be perseveration on my part, but I keep going back to how such a president comes to power to begin with. Does he pretend to endorse militarism until after the votes are in and then do a 180? How does such a president get elected?
It's a pretty silly exercise to think about how Ron Paul would actually behave in office, seeing as he can't possibly be elected.
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  #145  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:31 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
It's a pretty silly exercise to think about how Ron Paul would actually behave in office, seeing as he can't possibly be elected.
Well, I was thinking more generally of any potential president who would dismantle all miltary bases overseas, but yeah.
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  #146  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:32 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Newsflash: Democrats are impure too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Shorter Kevin Drum: "If you truly support civil liberties and non-interventionism, you must slavishly support all Democrats."

THAT is a crackpot view (contrary to fact), based on the history of the national Democratic party up to and including the administration of Barack Obama.
Shorter Wonderment: "I can't stop war so let me join the fight ... against the Democratic party ... bashing is a small consolation for my so called support.
Why don't I vote Green? I'm conflicted."
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  #147  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:36 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

I'm in a huury now so cannot answer fully, but I'll just say that people who develop strong pro-peace convictions early in their political lives are likely to sustain them till the day they die (except Christopher Hitchens). This has been my experience in living through Vietnam and all subsequent permutations of antiwar activism. It's a powerful conviction like anti-racism or anti-sexism. Eventually those kinds of core convictions change the world.
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  #148  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:46 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I'm in a huury now so cannot answer fully, but I'll just say that people who develop strong pro-peace convictions early in their political lives are likely to sustain them till the day they die (except Christopher Hitchens). This has been my experience in living through Vietnam and all subsequent permutations of antiwar activism. It's a powerful conviction like anti-racism or anti-sexism. Eventually those kinds of core convictions change the world.
Well ok, I'll stipulate that people converted to pacifism by Ron Paul will remain pacifists indefinitely. How many people are converted, and how many of his supporters were already disaffected liberals/antiwar libertarians/pacifists? When will this actually effect policy? Your explanations of the beneficial effects of Paul's candidacy continue to sound like unfalsifiable happy talk to me, driven more by your frustration with Obama than by any rational appraisal of Paul as a candidate.
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  #149  
Old 01-03-2012, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Newsflash: Democrats are impure too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
Shorter Wonderment: "I can't stop war so let me join the fight ... against the Democratic party ... bashing is a small consolation for my so called support.
Why don't I vote Green? I'm conflicted."
Even shorter:
"I promote even totally unviable candidacies based on a single issue."
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  #150  
Old 01-03-2012, 05:19 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Let's do the (1930s) time warp again: The Ronny Horror Picture Show

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Your previous republican presidents certainly didn't think there was any particular link. They considered payroll taxes additional revenue that could be raided for any purpose under the sun for pet projects of any kind.
You seem to be suggesting this is a partisan phenomenon, when it was Lyndon Johnson who actually included SS into the unified budget, and 30 years of Democratic Congresses which passed laws since (Including 3 Presidents).

Moreover, it is Obama I who is being hailed by your side for his "brilliance" in demagoguing the issue of payroll tax holidays. This entire administration has a Flashman quality about it.

Quote:
In any case, your objection appears to be that this is a tax which is accompanied by a particular benefit. Quel horreur!
Actually my point is that you are denying an obvious fact in service of partisanship. Mandating behavior is robbing someone of a freedom. I'm not "horrified" that a tax is accompanied by a benefit. I'm horrified that an American citizen is unable to see that there is a cost to that in some measure of liberty. If you are unaware of the costs involved in choices being made for you, how can you make proper decisions on electoral politics?
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  #151  
Old 01-03-2012, 06:04 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Be Seeing You (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

I'm afraid Bob & Mickey are probably wrong about whom the Tea Party is comprised of. I think it's mostly THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT!
Yes, there was famously that Tea Partier with the sign that said: "Government, Keep Your Hands Off My Medicare!"
But I think religion, social issues and a misinformed worship of Ronald Reagan make up the central core - (if there is a core) - of the Tea Party.
But maybe Bob & Mickey are correct, in which case the Tea Partiers are stupider and more ignorant and ill-informed than I've thought they are, since they seem to think they love Paul Ryan, etc.

On another point: I disagree with Bob's not-so-high opinion of Christopher Hitchens. I thought Hitchens was great - even when I disagreed with him. Plus, he was VERY BRAVE during the Salman Rushdie death threat situation.
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  #152  
Old 01-03-2012, 06:35 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Newsflash: Democrats are impure too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
Even shorter:
"I promote even totally unviable candidacies based on a single issue."
Here is how I read Wonderment's conversation with his fellow liberals in this forum:

Wonderment: "I could never vote for RP for president but he is an outspoken anti-war, anti-American-Empire politician with a national platform. I appreciate that about him. Kudos to Ron Paul!"

Some forum liberals in tribal group-think unison: "Gasp! Horrors! How dare you say something nice about a Republican!"
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  #153  
Old 01-03-2012, 06:43 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Newsflash: Democrats are impure too.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Here is how I read Wonderment's conversation with his fellow liberals in this forum:

Wonderment: "I could never vote for RP for president but he is an outspoken anti-war, anti-American-Empire politician with a national platform. I appreciate that about him. Kudos to Ron Paul!"

Some forum liberals in tribal group-think unison: "Gasp! Horrors! How dare you say something nice about a Republican!"
He's a Republican? At some point they are going to have to deal with libertarian hoard, and when they realize the long term damage they can do to the party and the country, it may be too late.
Look up the page a little, Wonder claims to have supported all flavors of hopefuls, and not for their domestic policies either.
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  #154  
Old 01-03-2012, 06:59 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Let's do the (1930s) time warp again: The Ronny Horror Picture Show

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
I'm not "horrified" that a tax is accompanied by a benefit. I'm horrified that an American citizen is unable to see that there is a cost to that in some measure of liberty. If you are unaware of the costs involved in choices being made for you, how can you make proper decisions on electoral politics?
I am not a citizen, so don't weep too loudly.

I just think that you and Kang are dramatically over-stating the costs in this matter.
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  #155  
Old 01-03-2012, 07:09 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Newsflash: Democrats are impure too.

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Originally Posted by handle View Post
He's a Republican? At some point they are going to have to deal with libertarian hoard, and when they realize the long term damage they can do to the party and the country, it may be too late.
Look up the page a little, Wonder claims to have supported all flavors of hopefuls, and not for their domestic policies either.
As a Republican myself, I consider him as much a Republican as any others in the field. Republicans and Libertarians overlap quite a bit on domestic issues, and while he is at odds with a big majority of Republicans on foreign policy, his isolationist stance is not a historically strange idea in the GOP. That idea has a longer history in the GOP then it does in the Democratic party. I don't think that folks, like myself, who consider themselves 'libertarian', ( I disagree with Paul on foreign policy, and the gold standard stuff) are a hindrance to the GOP, they are an important part of the coalition.
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  #156  
Old 01-03-2012, 07:23 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I'm in a huury now so cannot answer fully, but I'll just say that people who develop strong pro-peace convictions early in their political lives are likely to sustain them till the day they die (except Christopher Hitchens). This has been my experience in living through Vietnam and all subsequent permutations of antiwar activism. It's a powerful conviction like anti-racism or anti-sexism. Eventually those kinds of core convictions change the world.
I was once a pie in the sky peace advocate, product of the Nam era. But I left the bubble of the west coast long enough to mature out of it's luxurious appeal, and the reality of the consequences of "preening idealism" (to quote a friend) by only those who can afford the lifestyle became glaringly apparent.
I still hate war, but this is a world at war, and for us (especially) to refuse to engage under any circumstances is to become the worlds largest enabler of war, IMO.
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  #157  
Old 01-03-2012, 07:32 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Newsflash: Democrats are impure too.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
As a Republican myself, I consider him as much a Republican as any others in the field. Republicans and Libertarians overlap quite a bit on domestic issues, and while he is at odds with a big majority of Republicans on foreign policy, his isolationist stance is not a historically strange idea in the GOP. That idea has a longer history in the GOP then it does in the Democratic party. I don't think that folks, like myself, who consider themselves 'libertarian', ( I disagree with Paul on foreign policy, and the gold standard stuff) are a hindrance to the GOP, they are an important part of the coalition.
The definition of "strange bedfellows" IMO, let me know how that works out. My main beef is with staunch extremists of any brand, anyway. I don't follow him enough to make the call but my distant impression is that he (RP) qualifies.

I think our FP is driven by mostly necessity, and to a lesser but significant degree, special interests, and to declare to the world that we are basically shutting down will definitely rile the anti-weakness faction of any ideological group.
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  #158  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:24 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

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Originally Posted by handle View Post
I still hate war....
Not enough, Handle.
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  #159  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:38 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Not enough, Handle.
Not following you off the reservation, sorry. Sell your luxurious over the top idealism to those who can afford it.
Can you still write in Nader on the CA ballot?
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  #160  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:38 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Kudos to Bob for setting the record straight on his hero, Ron Paul

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Your explanations of the beneficial effects of Paul's candidacy continue to sound like unfalsifiable happy talk to me, driven more by your frustration with Obama than by any rational appraisal of Paul as a candidate.
You are speculating just as much as I am, except your speculation leads you to resign yourself to embrace the military industrial complex status quo. I am more hopeful that a bipartisan peace coalition can emerge. Paul's popularity among young voters is encouraging to me. As I said previously, they will be voting for sixty years and are unlikely to flipflop on militarism. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but an Obama supporter is probably the last person on Earth to point fingers at naive wishful thinkers.
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