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  #41  
Old 11-19-2011, 11:38 PM
Cincinnatus Cincinnatus is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I disagee that comments on Knobe's articulation are purely one of aesthetic, as being able to understand what someone is saying is a function of having a good dialogue.

And no matter what you said about E Grieder, it couldn't have been as uncomfortable a moment as Matt Lewis' mentioning masturbation to Kristen Soltis, the only thing missing from her reaction was a crickets wav file.
Ha, yeah, the Lewis masturbation comment/moment was pretty funny, but it could have been waaaay more awkward than it actually was. Soltis sort of just giggled it off.

Anywho - saying that Knobe has a "pixie voice" and that his hairdo is a result of him being a pothead is way more derogatory than my four words on Grieder, which were simply: Erica Grieder is hot. Would it have been less offensive if I said, "Erica Grieder has good facial bone structure and I like the way she styled her hair today"? Way too wordy.

I guess it's ok to remark on men's appearances in the bloggingheads comment sphere, but not on women's - even if complimentary.
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  #42  
Old 11-19-2011, 11:46 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Now some people are probably so far gone that even the most trivial acts of self control to us are monumental efforts, so do we adjust the bar to cross into the gutter where their standards are? I think this is where one of those tiger mom strategies would be more effective, or drugs.
There are a lot of ways to adjust the bar. The judge in this case had the tremendous leverage to incarcerate the kid for failing to comply. But the point is that even given the huge incentive (physical freedom), the boy was still incapable of getting out of bed in the morning.

My conclusion was that he needed a much better program of rehabilitation (I don't even know what the original offense was) than the court was equipped to provide. I thought the judge's ideology and attitude were unhelpful, but in the absence of what the kid really needed, I can see why he went there.

The question is -- for the purposes of this diavlog -- how would you develop self-control in this young man? Kids who are classified as "at-risk" typically have multiple stresses which, in their aggregate, reduce the ability to self-control, to inhibit impulses and to generally stay out of trouble.

In other words, if you have a background of say 1) parent in prison; 2) past physical or sexual abuse; 3) learning disability; 4) alcoholism/addiction in the home; 5) in/out of foster care; 6) poverty -- the likelihood of being able to perform like a young middle class kid with none of the above handicaps is very low. Thus, the judge's expectations were unrealistic.

There are good non-prison residential and half-way house type programs for at-risk kids who have been in trouble with the law, and they are a very good investment in our collective future. Unfortunately, most kids don't get the opportunity to succeed is such programs. They slip through the cracks and end up as recidivist criminals, addicts/alcoholics, virtually unemployable dropouts, and in the case of males, deadbeat dads.
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  #43  
Old 11-19-2011, 11:49 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
We've been talking about anorexia (eating very little) mostly. At the beginning of the illness, restricting calories to the degree that's done in anorexia requires great discipline and control. Food becomes an enemy in the anorectic's mind. This in turn creates great anxiety as food is both wanted and feared. Overtime, the wanting decreases and the fear persists. In the worst cases, this pattern continues unchanged until the person dies of malnourishment.
I completely disagree that anorexia requires great discipline and self-control. It is a mental illness IMO. Anyone who has this disorder rather requires great discipline and self-control to resist it, hence my 'weakness' remark.

Many psychiatrists think it is a variation of excessive compusive disorder, an anxiety disorder.

Last edited by harkin; 11-19-2011 at 11:59 PM..
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  #44  
Old 11-20-2011, 12:11 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I completely disagree that anorexia requires great discipline and self-control. It is a mental illness IMO. Anyone who has this disorder rather requires great discipline and self-control to resist it.

Many psychiatrists think it is a variation of excessive compusive disorder, an anxiety disorder.
Harkin, I tried to explain this in a simple, understandable way. As I said, in the beginning, when the illness starts, young women most commonly fight their normal desire to eat. It is only later that the desire is completely gone.

When you provide links it would be desirable that you get the person's discipline right. You're citing a paper written by someone whose credentials aren't included but it reads as a paper by an undergrad student at best. The paper is included in a psychology department page, not psychiatry. And if you read the paper, which is obviously summarizing others' work, it says:

Quote:
Along with an obsession with food there is also a focus on control. Preoccupation with control is pervasive in the lives, personality and symptomatology of persons with eating disorders. Directly involved in the relentless pursuit of thinness are control of weight, control of appetite, control of thoughts, and ritualistic control of the environment.
But, hey, go ahead and read the student's summary of the summaries. What do I know? I've only had a couple of dozen patients with eating disorders during my years of clinical practice.

It looks like you do like to provide links to counterarguments to your own points. Interesting. You have your own undoing.
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  #45  
Old 11-20-2011, 01:07 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Harkin, I tried to explain this in a simple, understandable way. As I said, in the beginning, when the illness starts, young women most commonly fight their normal desire to eat. It is only later that the desire is completely gone.......
I can post numerous citations by MDs that anorexia is a mental disorder. You can also find them if you wish. My point was in diagreement that anorexia is some sort of self-control gone out of whack instead of an illness. My undoing was thinking everyone would grasp this.
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  #46  
Old 11-20-2011, 02:07 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Harkin, I tried to explain this in a simple, understandable way. As I said, in the beginning, when the illness starts, young women most commonly fight their normal desire to eat. It is only later that the desire is completely gone.
It occurs that we have two propositions we are discussing a little simultaneously.

1. self-control is a good thing.
2. self-control can be strengthened with "practice"

I suspect most of us agree with number 2.

But the example of the eating disorder speaks to number 1. And I think from Baumeister's perspective, he's treating it as a tool that is usually used toward good ends. Hammers are for pounding nails. They can be used to bludgeon someone to death, but it doesn't speak to their usefulness.

In some ways, leaving aside the anxiety aspect, Ocean's example fits kind of with the practice aspect. I suspect with a lot of compulsions, there's an initial push of self-control, but beyond a certain point, it takes a life of its own so that intertia is againts one and it requires a great deal of effort to change course. To take a ridiculously positive frame, the practice of self-control has "worked."

And, it does, at least initially, take an effort of will to prevent onesself from eating, or to cut yourself with a knife or to spend three hours a day bathing so as to prevent germs. But it is reinforcing from teh anxiety perspective and pretty soon, it's what you do. And then the will (to the extent to which it can be applied) is more realistically seen as being applied on the other side.
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  #47  
Old 11-20-2011, 02:09 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I can post numerous citations by MDs that anorexia is a mental disorder. You can also find them if you wish. My point was in diagreement that anorexia is some sort of self-control gone out of whack instead of an illness. My undoing was thinking everyone would grasp this.
I don't think anyone is claiming that anorexia is not a disorder. The quesiton is whether one can understand this mental disorder as driven by some sort of overfunction of self-control or if there's a better way of understanding it.
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  #48  
Old 11-20-2011, 02:11 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Yikes! I don't think that white chocolate should be called chocolate at all.
Second.

Quote:
It's more like fat mixed with microquantities of chocolate flavorings.
It's not even that good. It's more like rancid wax, with petroleum flavoring.
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  #49  
Old 11-20-2011, 11:07 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
It occurs that we have two propositions we are discussing a little simultaneously.

1. self-control is a good thing.
2. self-control can be strengthened with "practice"

I suspect most of us agree with number 2.

But the example of the eating disorder speaks to number 1. And I think from Baumeister's perspective, he's treating it as a tool that is usually used toward good ends. Hammers are for pounding nails. They can be used to bludgeon someone to death, but it doesn't speak to their usefulness.

In some ways, leaving aside the anxiety aspect, Ocean's example fits kind of with the practice aspect. I suspect with a lot of compulsions, there's an initial push of self-control, but beyond a certain point, it takes a life of its own so that intertia is againts one and it requires a great deal of effort to change course. To take a ridiculously positive frame, the practice of self-control has "worked."

And, it does, at least initially, take an effort of will to prevent onesself from eating, or to cut yourself with a knife or to spend three hours a day bathing so as to prevent germs. But it is reinforcing from teh anxiety perspective and pretty soon, it's what you do. And then the will (to the extent to which it can be applied) is more realistically seen as being applied on the other side.
I would leave compulsions separate since their mechanism is to engage in something very actively in order to rid the person from their obsessive fears. Some compulsions may be in place to distract from engaging in pathological acts driven by obsessions, but we are always talking about compensatory mechanisms secondary to some primary pathological obsession.

But going back to anorexia, it's a cleaner example, because indeed there is an initial mechanism of controlling the desire to engage in a normal physiological function: eating. As in the establishment of any habit, at the beginning it requires effort, but later it continues on automatic mode. Unfortunately by then, restricting may have set neuroendocrinological mechanisms that perpetuate and worsen the problem.

Again, I think that Roy preempted the possibility of addressing the down side of self control by stating that he's talking about adaptive self control.

It is similar to the discussion of optimism. We need to accept and agree that often we talk about psychological functions that are adaptive only in the right amount, if too little or too much, they may be problematic. Roy may also state that there's no such thing as too much self control, because its excess means that there's a mechanism of inhibition. But as you said above, self control, which most of the time serves an adaptive function, at times may become maladaptive like in anorexia.

A different, lighter objection is the one mentioned before in this thread, when people are so self controlled that they can't loosen up on occasion and allow themselves the enjoyment of small pleasures, which in moderation wouldn't be harmful but just fun.
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  #50  
Old 11-20-2011, 11:22 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
A different, lighter objection is the one mentioned before in this thread, when people are so self controlled that they can't loosen up on occasion and allow themselves the enjoyment of small pleasures, which in moderation wouldn't be harmful but just fun.
I guess.

I just think that "allowing onesself a little fun" is the kind of thing that self-control makes more, not less, possible.
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  #51  
Old 11-20-2011, 11:30 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
I guess.

I just think that "allowing onesself a little fun" is the kind of thing that self-control makes more, not less, possible.
True, since there's no fear of being unable to stop.
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  #52  
Old 11-20-2011, 11:33 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
Dear Bloggingheads thread moderator: Why is that other people can comment on a diavlogger's aesthetic, as seen above, or as seen in comments about Fernholz's goofball glasses, but when I comment that Erica Grieder is hot, I get censored off the comment section?
Did you really get censored? But not banned, I see. Personally I think Erica would have appreciated you critique and I think it should have stood.

I realize you're not so interested in my comments and if you want feedback from bhtv, why not send a pm to Aryeh?
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  #53  
Old 11-20-2011, 11:44 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post

And, it does, at least initially, take an effort of will to prevent onesself from eating, or to cut yourself with a knife or to spend three hours a day bathing so as to prevent germs. But it is reinforcing from teh anxiety perspective and pretty soon, it's what you do. And then the will (to the extent to which it can be applied) is more realistically seen as being applied on the other side.
I would agree that it takes some kind of self control to keep from eating. I think it's a perverse type, however and has to do with a vain attempt to re take control over one's life. But the cutting example doesn't jive with what I know about this phenomenon. Hurting one's self is a kind of release and doesn't require much deliberation or determination at all.

But I guess this is all semantics at the end of the day.
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  #54  
Old 11-20-2011, 01:06 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
Ha, yeah, the Lewis masturbation comment/moment was pretty funny, but it could have been waaaay more awkward than it actually was. Soltis sort of just giggled it off.

Anywho - saying that Knobe has a "pixie voice" and that his hairdo is a result of him being a pothead is way more derogatory than my four words on Grieder, which were simply: Erica Grieder is hot. Would it have been less offensive if I said, "Erica Grieder has good facial bone structure and I like the way she styled her hair today"? Way too wordy.
You could compliment her bone structure as "good" ( vs not good ) but I would think that would probably be in the same league as "she's hot". You could try making less judgmental statements about certain metrics in regards to her face and contrast that with measurements for females in the population at large but that also brings up the idea of the purpose of the comment being jest a wee tangential to Ms. Grieder's arguments or her performance on the diavlog itself. A commenter could maintain that Derek Jetter is HOT but how useful that is when discussing his abilities in short stop.

If you take a cue from harkin you could state that she is too hot and that you are unable to process what she is saying for more than 10 seconds at a time and as harkin says
Quote:
being able to understand what someone is saying is a function of having a good dialogue.
Thinking that wouldn't fly either.*

I will say that Conn Carroll did call out 2 female diavlogers on their looks but I am fairly certain that there was some pre-existing relationship ( friends or the like ) that kept the comment out of creepy territory, I don't know this for a fact however.

Or despite the allure of the diavloger you might note the topic of this particular diavlog.


Quote:
I guess it's ok to remark on men's appearances in the bloggingheads comment sphere, but not on women's - even if complimentary.
That's is an argument. I don't notice this happening often and have little interest in how the males look but if you to say "Conn Carroll looks hot" it might get an interesting response in the comment section.

* In all honesty I have used something like this as an excuse during certain expository scenes in Game of Thrones To be fair it is a complex plot with very little time for back story development, the dialog is pretty compact as well.
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  #55  
Old 11-20-2011, 01:12 PM
T.G.G.P T.G.G.P is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

The question of a downside was interesting to me, because if something is beneficial in all circumstances you would expect natural selection to make it a "fixed" trait, rather than one that varies a lot between people. Intelligence is costly because brains use up a lot of energy (and large heads make for more difficult births). There's also this, though that might be more reflective of modern circumstances than the broader sweep of human history.

Cincinnatus, I've said similar things about some female diavloggers without getting censored. My guess about the difference is that I did so in a wordier manner that sounded classier than "X is hot". Or maybe Komment Kontrol was feeling censory the day you happened to post.

Last edited by T.G.G.P; 11-20-2011 at 01:35 PM..
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  #56  
Old 11-20-2011, 02:24 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
True, since there's no fear of being unable to stop.
And more money to spend.

;-)
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  #57  
Old 11-20-2011, 02:29 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by thouartgob View Post
I will say that Conn Carroll did call out 2 female diavlogers on their looks but I am fairly certain that there was some pre-existing relationship ( friends or the like ) that kept the comment out of creepy territory, I don't know this for a fact however.
Yes, they are colleagues of his -- still creepy though. All that repressive Irish Catholicism has to rear itself eventually.
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  #58  
Old 11-20-2011, 02:49 PM
Cincinnatus Cincinnatus is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by thouartgob View Post
...but that also brings up the idea of the purpose of the comment being jest a wee tangential to Ms. Grieder's arguments or her performance on the diavlog itself. A commenter could maintain that Derek Jetter is HOT but how useful that is when discussing his abilities in short stop.
Of course it was tangential! I don't remember reading in the rules that comments had to strictly pertain to arguments made in the diavlog. In fact, commenters go on tangents all the time - I was just perusing comments and saw a conversation on how gross white chocolate is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thouartgob View Post
That's is an argument. I don't notice this happening often and have little interest in how the males look but if you to say "Conn Carroll looks hot" it might get an interesting response in the comment section.
Yes, that is my entire point.
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  #59  
Old 11-20-2011, 03:03 PM
Cincinnatus Cincinnatus is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Did you really get censored? But not banned, I see. Personally I think Erica would have appreciated you critique and I think it should have stood.

I realize you're not so interested in my comments and if you want feedback from bhtv, why not send a pm to Aryeh?
I think she would have appreciated it also, although it's hard to know these days. Complimenting someone on their looks is regarded by some as tantamount to sexual harassment. I know, I know...it's a sad state of affairs.

And I am interested in your comments. I was just being a smartass earlier in response to graz. I went public with my grievance in order to highlight the double-standard held by bloggingheads. Plus, I think a public explanation by bloggingheads on where the line is drawn can only be good for our discourse.
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  #60  
Old 11-20-2011, 03:07 PM
Cincinnatus Cincinnatus is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by T.G.G.P View Post
Cincinnatus, I've said similar things about some female diavloggers without getting censored. My guess about the difference is that I did so in a wordier manner that sounded classier than "X is hot". Or maybe Komment Kontrol was feeling censory the day you happened to post.
Is classiness like obscenity, the moderator knows it when he sees it? That doesn't seem right.
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  #61  
Old 11-20-2011, 03:38 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
Of course it was tangential! I don't remember reading in the rules that comments had to strictly pertain to arguments made in the diavlog. In fact, commenters go on tangents all the time - I was just perusing comments and saw a conversation on how gross white chocolate is.
Judging fake chocolate isn't problematic though. Anyways chocolate does force many to exercise their self-control so that could be somewhat less tangential.

Quote:
Yes, that is my entire point.
You called Conn Carroll hot ? was it taken down ?? That is probably the point to begin the discussion on double standards. I would guess Life Universe and Everything would be the place for it to start as well.

I suspect that commenting on how someone is dressed or something more superficial than looks ( even though skin deep ) probably get less attention than a single statement reply saying someone is hot. I think graz is right about the random nature of censoring of items within guidelines, not rules. There are threads available on the subject of what, why, how, when etc.
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  #62  
Old 11-20-2011, 04:18 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
Dear Bloggingheads thread moderator: Why is that other people can comment on a diavlogger's aesthetic, as seen above, or as seen in comments about Fernholz's goofball glasses, but when I comment that Erica Grieder is hot, I get censored off the comment section?
Maybe you should Occupy Bloggingheads. Prepare to be pepper-sprayed in the face.
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  #63  
Old 11-20-2011, 04:48 PM
Cincinnatus Cincinnatus is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by thouartgob View Post
Judging fake chocolate isn't problematic though. Anyways chocolate does force many to exercise their self-control so that could be somewhat less tangential.



You called Conn Carroll hot ? was it taken down ?? That is probably the point to begin the discussion on double standards. I would guess Life Universe and Everything would be the place for it to start as well.

I suspect that commenting on how someone is dressed or something more superficial than looks ( even though skin deep ) probably get less attention than a single statement reply saying someone is hot. I think graz is right about the random nature of censoring of items within guidelines, not rules. There are threads available on the subject of what, why, how, when etc.
Let me state with as much emphasis as humanly possible that I did not call Conn Carroll hot. I will say, however, that Julian Sanchez is looking quite dapper in his vest and tie.

Bottom line is this, saying that Knobe has a pixie voice and that his hairdo has something to do with him being a pothead is far more problematic, offensive, and even injurious than me saying Erica Grieder is hot. Call me crazy, but bloggingheads' censorship seems more appropriate in the case of ad hominem attacks than in the case of a paid compliment.
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  #64  
Old 11-20-2011, 05:00 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Cognitive Scientists vs. Grandmothers; Round I

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
My grandmother told me that masturbation would deprive one's body of its vital force.
Somehow, I think this is true. The biggest scourge for men is not women; it might be pornography.
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  #65  
Old 11-20-2011, 05:15 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Harkin, I tried to explain this in a simple, understandable way.


Then maybe think about the topic of self-control vs. your epic pronouncements to place people on your ignore lists only to repeatedly fail. Then maybe think about why someone who is so utterly lacking in self-control is the only authorized drug dealer among us.

But what do I know? I'm only a libertarian.
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  #66  
Old 11-20-2011, 05:39 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post


Then maybe think about the topic of self-control vs. your epic pronouncements to place people on your ignore lists only to repeatedly fail. Then maybe think about why someone who is so utterly lacking in self-control is the only authorized drug dealer among us.

But what do I know? I'm only a libertarian.
I confess that sometimes I feel for you SK. Everything is so painful, so sore. Feminists, liberals, commenters in this forum, both men and women, condescending, putting and taking you out of ignore lists, feminizing, misinterpreting, not commenting as much as you would like them to on your favorite topics. Such suffering all the time. We should give you a break.

My self control is perfectly fine, thank you. I'm not failing to use the ignore list. I'm choosing when to use it and when not. The ability is based on self control.

Drug dealer? Nooooo. Drug prescriber with a license and all appropriate blessings.
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  #67  
Old 11-20-2011, 06:30 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Cognitive Scientists vs. Grandmothers; Round I

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Somehow, I think this is true. The biggest scourge for men is not women; it might be pornography.
Are you sure you're not operative?

;-)
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  #68  
Old 11-20-2011, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

I'm skeptical of two seemingly contradictory claims made by Roy:

1. willpower is scarce, finite, and we mostly shuffle it around.

2. willpower can be increased with effort and dedication.

How would you know that 2. isn't just feeding off of 1.?
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  #69  
Old 11-20-2011, 07:17 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Unit View Post
I'm skeptical of two seemingly contradictory claims made by Roy:

1. willpower is scarce, finite, and we mostly shuffle it around.

2. willpower can be increased with effort and dedication.

How would you know that 2. isn't just feeding off of 1.?
You have to think about it as you would think about muscle. On a given day, you may get exhausted from exercising and not have much stamina left at the end of the day to do other tasks that require using those muscles (as in willpower/self control in 1.).

But, you can exercise regularly and build muscle mass so that your muscles become stronger and you are able to exercise with less effort (as in willpower/self control in 2.).

That doesn't mean that muscle or willpower are limitless. There will always be a ceiling.

A different topic is what the equivalent to steroids would be when applied to self control.
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Old 11-20-2011, 07:24 PM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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You have to think about it as you would think about muscle. On a given day, you may get exhausted from exercising and not have much stamina left at the end of the day to do other tasks that require using those muscles (as in willpower/self control in 1.).

But, you can exercise regularly and build muscle mass so that your muscles become stronger and you are able to exercise with less effort (as in willpower/self control in 2.).

That doesn't mean that muscle or willpower are limitless. There will always be a ceiling.

A different topic is what the equivalent to steroids would be when applied to self control.
Speed?
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  #71  
Old 11-20-2011, 07:26 PM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
You have to think about it as you would think about muscle. On a given day, you may get exhausted from exercising and not have much stamina left at the end of the day to do other tasks that require using those muscles (as in willpower/self control in 1.).

But, you can exercise regularly and build muscle mass so that your muscles become stronger and you are able to exercise with less effort (as in willpower/self control in 2.).

That doesn't mean that muscle or willpower are limitless. There will always be a ceiling.

A different topic is what the equivalent to steroids would be when applied to self control.
By the way, thanks for the explanation.
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  #72  
Old 11-20-2011, 07:33 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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By the way, thanks for the explanation.
You're welcome.
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  #73  
Old 11-20-2011, 07:54 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

Regarding tardiness and musicians, this is an interesting contradiction. I've known many musicians who show tremendous lack of self-control when it comes to things like being on time, but yet are extremely controlled when it comes to what they do on stage or in the studio etc. They can be incredibly flaky in other areas of their lives, yet very controlled with regards to their art. In much the same way that they can party like maniacs all night, but then spend 16 hours the next day working on the intricacies of a song arrangement etc.
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  #74  
Old 11-20-2011, 08:29 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Bottom line is this, saying that Knobe has a pixie voice and that his hairdo has something to do with him being a pothead is far more problematic, offensive, and even injurious than me saying Erica Grieder is hot. Call me crazy, but bloggingheads' censorship seems more appropriate in the case of ad hominem attacks than in the case of a paid compliment.
Well there lots of complaints about bad diction, diavloger's irksome use of "like" and "ya know" and other verbal ticks and issues. So one could argue that complaints about Knobe could be justified under those circumstances as harkin suggested I guess . Pothead and hair stuff at this point can only be taken as joking or if serious the complainer would be the joke at that point. I don't defend the censorship stuff nor do I decry it. Whatever they are doing is better than most of the comment sections out there.

If I were to hazard a guess "Hot", arguably, has an overtly sexual tone and it was the only thing you were saying or adding to the conversation. You could have said "she looked nice today" or something like that. Not the point you were trying to make but like ya know.
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:57 PM
Cincinnatus Cincinnatus is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Pothead and hair stuff at this point can only be taken as joking or if serious the complainer would be the joke at that point. I don't defend the censorship stuff nor do I decry it. Whatever they are doing is better than most of the comment sections out there.

If I were to hazard a guess "Hot", arguably, has an overtly sexual tone and it was the only thing you were saying or adding to the conversation. You could have said "she looked nice today" or something like that.
Overtly sexual? Hardly. I stand by my claim that there is a sort of gender bias at play here. It's ok to make demeaning aesthetic judgments about men, but not ok to remark, even positively, about women.
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  #76  
Old 11-20-2011, 09:14 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Overtly sexual? Hardly. I stand by my claim that there is a sort of gender bias at play here. It's ok to make demeaning aesthetic judgments about men, but not ok to remark, even positively, about women.
I'd be inclined to defend that proposition, actually. Context matters here, and women are vastly more likely to be evaluated purely on the basis of their appearance than men. I mean, Tim Fernholz might wear silly glasses and Rob Farley might wear awesome hats, but I don't think either of them would seriously worry that they are only being viewed as "the guy that wears the silly glasses." For an attractive female DV'er, on the other hand, I think that being considered and remembered only in terms of her appearance is a much realer possibility. So I can see why the moderators, in the absence of any other content in the comment, would want to delete a comment that might encourage the evaluation of that DV'er in that way.
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:56 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
Overtly sexual? Hardly. I stand by my claim that there is a sort of gender bias at play here. It's ok to make demeaning aesthetic judgments about men, but not ok to remark, even positively, about women.
Arguably so. Compare "you look nice today" to "you look hot" or "you look sexy". There is more of a sexual connotation. How far away is it from saying "she has a beautiful body" ? In fact HOT is more explicit than commenting on a person's body. Would you be surprised ( forgetting how the camera is positioned ) if you had your comment censored if you said "That girl has a great figure" ? I take it we can agree that positive remarks about women's particular body parts would be significantly over the line or would that be a gender bias thing ?

Also if you could point to where there were people commenting on how HOT some of the male diavlogers are that would help. That was kind of the point of one of my earlier comments.
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:04 PM
Cincinnatus Cincinnatus is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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I'd be inclined to defend that proposition, actually. Context matters here, and women are vastly more likely to be evaluated purely on the basis of their appearance than men. I mean, Tim Fernholz might wear silly glasses and Rob Farley might wear awesome hats, but I don't think either of them would seriously worry that they are only being viewed as "the guy that wears the silly glasses." For an attractive female DV'er, on the other hand, I think that being considered and remembered only in terms of her appearance is a much realer possibility. So I can see why the moderators, in the absence of any other content in the comment, would want to delete a comment that might encourage the evaluation of that DV'er in that way.
I think you're right on the money, Don Zeko.

On the flip side, the argument about women being more sensitive to aesthetic critique sort of reminds me of the notion of the soft bigotry of low expectations. Should we treat the fairer sex with kid gloves because we expect women to not be able to handle a compliment or critique? I think not. Grieder is hot not only because she looks good, but also because of her cogent political and economic commentary. I'm sure she knows this, and I doubt she would take offense to being reminded. I mean, c'mon, everyone loves a compliment.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:11 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Regarding tardiness and musicians, this is an interesting contradiction. I've known many musicians who show tremendous lack of self-control when it comes to things like being on time, but yet are extremely controlled when it comes to what they do on stage or in the studio etc. They can be incredibly flaky in other areas of their lives, yet very controlled with regards to their art. In much the same way that they can party like maniacs all night, but then spend 16 hours the next day working on the intricacies of a song arrangement etc.
People with ADHD (and I would know) are capable of what is called hyperfocus, where they can focus very intensely on a very particular thing and literally spend hours concentrating on it. The classic example is the kid who can't sit still for anything else but super mario brothers. I suspect there's a lot of domain specificity in general with self-control.

Athletes devote a huge amount of time and effort on a very circumscribed set of activities and forego a lot of activities that most of us wouldnt. But outside of the gym and playing field, as a group, they tend not to be overly blessed with an abundance of self-control.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:12 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Science Saturday: Exercising Self-Control (Joshua Knobe & Roy Baumeister)

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Overtly sexual? Hardly. I stand by my claim that there is a sort of gender bias at play here. It's ok to make demeaning aesthetic judgments about men, but not ok to remark, even positively, about women.
A fellow poster was banned for a comment he made about a man's appearance.
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