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  #41  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:47 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Need.......stimulus.....Keynes....Keynes.....

Considering that the Left is still depending on the skeletal remains of John M. Keynes for virtually every single one of its policy proscriptions, I think your description of vivid Conservatism as "mindless policy dogmatism" is amusing.
At least there is a prescription. And it isn't as arbitrary as you make it seem. For instance, its push on the left could generally equated with supply-side theory on the right. Yet which theories have more meat to them, in terms of serious economic substance?

I've said it before that few of us here have the actual chops to back up economic theory, and are mainly left with our ideological assumptions. But objectively, the idea of Keynesian stimulus is much more of a consensus economic view than supply-side. Doesn't mean it's right, but it has more standing.
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  #42  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:53 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
But objectively, the idea of Keynesian stimulus is much more of a consensus economic view than supply-side. Doesn't mean it's right, but it has more standing.
and 98% of climate scientists believe in global warming.

I have no idea where you get that Keynesian economics has more standing than supply side or any other type of free market approach. I'd say we're about 50/50, like everything else in this country these days.
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  #43  
Old 09-02-2011, 11:44 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
As I said, this was a couple of years ago. Bachmann was still a nobody, Perry was busy fixin' executions in Texas, and most of the sentiment was anti rather than pro: anti-Bush, anti-Obama, anti-establishment.

My impression was there was a mix of enthusiasm for Palin and for Ron Paul.
Whoops. I missed the couple years ago part.
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  #44  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:03 PM
Peter Twieg Peter Twieg is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Was pretty disappointed in Sullivan's failure to challenge any of Land's absurdities. I know that this is what Christians will normally call "respect", but seriously... a defense of irreducible complexity? Why can't Sullivan bring herself to make the obvious points that these sorts of "issues" are just reflective of a sort of right-wing identity politics? Land himself implicitly concedes this when he defends Perry's evolution skepticism with "well a lot of Americans are skeptical."
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  #45  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:14 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Peter Twieg View Post
Was pretty disappointed in Sullivan's failure to challenge any of Land's absurdities. I know that this is what Christians will normally call "respect", but seriously... a defense of irreducible complexity? Why can't Sullivan bring herself to make the obvious points that these sorts of "issues" are just reflective of a sort of right-wing identity politics? Land himself implicitly concedes this when he defends Perry's evolution skepticism with "well a lot of Americans are skeptical."
Amy pretty regularly challenges what you are calling absurdities. However, in those diavlogs she is most often paired with someone who more closely shares her views.
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  #46  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:24 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Amy pretty regularly challenges what you are calling absurdities. However, in those diavlogs she is most often paired with someone who more closely shares her views.
Twieg is specifically criticizing this particular dv. Do you have a point as to whether they are absurdities? Do you have any examples to counter Twieg?
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  #47  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:24 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Independents are like water on the horizon

It's people like Richard Land why I keep saying Independents are far rarer then commonly advertised. Most just seem to be a mixture of partisans & ideologues that want to appear objective by not calling themselves a Democrat or Republican, but when looked at closely it's hard to imagine them ever voting for more then one party. Ever.
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  #48  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:29 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by graz View Post
Twieg is specifically criticizing this particular dv. Do you have a point as to whether they are absurdities? Do you have any examples to counter Twieg?
I didn't listen to the diavlog so, no. I did counter Twieg with my example of other diavlogs.
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  #49  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:35 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I don't think Ron Paul would support, as you do, carte blanche benefits to illegal immigrants.
Ron Paul doesn't want benefits for American citizens, so in this regard he seems to support equal treatment.
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  #50  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:36 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I didn't listen to the diavlog so, no. I did counter Twieg with my example of other diavlogs.
Okay. We're agreed. Amy has done other dv's. As to what's absurd? Still unresolved.
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  #51  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:45 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Independents are like water on the horizon

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Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
It's people like Richard Land why I keep saying Independents are far rarer then commonly advertised. Most just seem to be a mixture of partisans & ideologues that want to appear objective by not calling themselves a Democrat or Republican, but when looked at closely it's hard to imagine them ever voting for more then one party. Ever.
I register independent but I mostly vote Republican. The reason I don't register Republican is because I don't believe in some of the things they have done. However I am going to register Republican for 2012 so I can vote in the primary. It's a strategic decision.
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  #52  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:51 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by graz View Post
Okay. We're agreed. Amy has done other dv's. As to what's absurd? Still unresolved.
She doesn't like fundamentalist Christians and considers people like Sarah Palin absurd from what I've noticed. People who don't like Bachmann and Palin generally have the same absurdities in mind: anti-abortion, anti-evolution, pro-military, pro-constitution (with the caveat that they interpret the constitution in a very unsophisticated way). It's a pretty standard list.
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  #53  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:00 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Ron Paul doesn't want benefits for American citizens, so in this regard he seems to support equal treatment.
Yes, he's a do it yourself kind of guy.
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  #54  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:03 PM
apple
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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I know it's common for many on the left nowadays to try to equate abortion rights and the gay marriage cause to the struggle against slavery and segregation.
I did not mention gay marriage, I mentioned the rights of gay people. I also did not "equate" anything. And the SBC has opposed ever single advancements of the rights of gay people, not just gay marriage, including the right not to be criminalized. I think it's fair to point out that the people who refer to themselves as the "Moral Majority" are in fact the same segregationists, slaveholders and lynchers of old. Immoral, ignorant, uneducated minority is more like it.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I support abortion rights
Supposedly. And then you claim that the media is biased because it not refer to abortion rights supporters as "baby-killers".

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
You have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the SBC in its racial reconciliation effort, no matter how late it is to the game.
On the contrary, I have every reason to doubt the sincerity of an organization that only apologized in 1995 for its truly atrocious record on race. Even before 1995, racism had become toxic and unacceptable, but not among white Southern evangelicals. In 1988, Mississippi voted to repeal its ban on interracial marriage by 52-48%. Just a few years ago, Alabama defeated a measure that would have removed its constitutional mandate the separate the white and colored races. To Alabama's credit, it did repeal its ban on interracial marriage, but with a white majority voting in opposition. Like I said, immoral, ignorant, uneducated minority is more like it.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
The most famous Southern Baptist is no doubt Billy Graham, who refused to visit South Africa as long as they required segregated seating. When he did finally start visiting there in the 70's he always spent part of the time lambasting the apartheid regime.
I did not accuse Billy Graham of racism, even though he was an anti-Semite, nor did I accuse every single person who happened to be a member of the SBC. However:

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
In addendum, I was reminded by Land of that notorious racist and bigot, Jimmy Carter, who is also a member of the SBC
Jimmy Carter was either a racist or someone who tried to pander to racists (i.e., his fellow white Southern evangelicals). For example, he said that people had the right to maintain the "ethnic purity" of their neighborhoods. What do you expect of a moronic peanut farmer? Still, to his credit, he supported civil rights, even as governor of Georgia.
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  #55  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:05 PM
apple
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
What is this, the Balkans? Multiracial or ethnic society is impossible if people exploit ethnic grievance like this.
What grievance am I exploiting? I am merely pointing out that the SBC was on the wrong side of every single moral issue on which there now is a consensus. And to think that its followers call themselves the "Moral Majority". What a joke.

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Considering what you're probably referring to as "rights", I have no objection to their actions here.
You aren't fooling anybody. I can name at least three disagreements you have with these people on these two issues alone.
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  #56  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:19 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Hats off to Wonderment for actually admitting that Tea Partiers are just people. The fact they litter less, hate less, lie less and are more self-sufficient than your average protesters should at least be a clue that their message might be worth listening to.

The next Tea Partier I run into who says they hate a person and not the policy, states that his/her problem with Obama or illegal immigrants has to do with skin color or says they are attending gatherings to protest abortion will be the first. Almost every one of the TPs I know either owns, has owned or works for a small/med size business and is voicing concern over the change in the past two decades from government fostering of private business to an attitude of them either being a source of cash to be sucked dry or even worse an object worthy of hostility. I will admit that many of these people do bring up one glaring social issue, the disappearing willingness of many Americans to take care of themselves, but then I think that's worth protesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
I've said it before that few of us here have the actual chops to back up economic theory, and are mainly left with our ideological assumptions. But objectively, the idea of Keynesian stimulus is much more of a consensus economic view than supply-side. Doesn't mean it's right, but it has more standing.
I always say look at the results. I may not have Paul Krugman's chops to discuss high economic theory but there are people who do and until recently they were flooding the comments section of his column with citations of his numerous errors and hypocrisies (now I guess it's a lot harder to get critical comments approved).

The bottom line is that as much as people argue otherwise, common sense applies to governments as well as single family households, you live within your means or you will suffer. Attempts at taking away the suffering by bailing out the failures (whether they be Wall St firms, people with bad credit histories, auto unions or green industries that had no chance of ever turning a profit) not only encourages repeat behavior by removing consequences, it spreads the suffering to those who actually live within their means, fostering resentment. Look at some of the columns from liberals who bemoan the fact that less and less people think the government is capable of creating solutions. The statists can't argue that running governments in the manner of IL, NJ, CA etc is the answer. Look at WI where millions spent by the unions were defeated by the voters because the facts (which the unions never wanted to discuss) were just too appalling to ignore.

I do not believe that the solution to the problems created by spending borrowed money on unsustainable programs as a means of vote-buying will ever be solved by borrowing more money to support unsustainable programs. Printing more money would be even worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry
I register independent but I mostly vote Republican.
I registered democrat for my first vote in 1976 (Carter!). After that fiasco, I changed to my own write-in party name (yes, I'm a party of one) and have not looked back. I did vote for Reagan in 1980 but I have either not voted or written in a name for every presidential or congressional seat since (I just couldn't give what's been offered as the best candidate available from either the dems or repubs my vote).
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  #57  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:22 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
I did not mention gay marriage, I mentioned the rights of gay people. I also did not "equate" anything. And the SBC has opposed ever single advancements of the rights of gay people, not just gay marriage, including the right not to be criminalized.
It is time for groups like Southern Baptists to stop hiding behind an interpretation of the Bible that gives them carte blanche to demonize LGBT people,” McKinney said. “It is time for Southern Baptists to stop telling destructive lies that sexual orientation and gender identity are lifestyle choices that can be fixed.”

“It is time for the Southern Baptists to repent of their oppression of the LGBT community and apologize for the enormous damage that their false teachings are doing,” McKinney said.
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  #58  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:27 PM
apple
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
It is time for groups like Southern Baptists to stop hiding behind an interpretation of the Bible that gives them carte blanche to demonize LGBT people,” McKinney said. “It is time for Southern Baptists to stop telling destructive lies that sexual orientation and gender identity are lifestyle choices that can be fixed.”

“It is time for the Southern Baptists to repent of their oppression of the LGBT community and apologize for the enormous damage that their false teachings are doing,” McKinney said.
Your point? Who the hell is McKinney?
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  #59  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:44 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post

I registered democrat for my first vote in 1976 (Carter!). After that fiasco, I changed to my own write-in party name (yes, I'm a party of one) and have not looked back. I did vote for Reagan in 1980 but I have either not voted or written in a name for every presidential or congressional seat since (I just couldn't give what's been offered as the best candidate available from either the dems or repubs my vote).
When the perfect candidate runs and has a chance of winning, I'll vote for her. Until then it's always the lesser of two evils.
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  #60  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:57 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Your point? Who the hell is McKinney?
Never mind. I thought it was a counter to your assertion but I was wrong. The SBC still opposes gay rights but there is movement in the other direction.
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  #61  
Old 09-02-2011, 02:27 PM
apple
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Never mind. I thought it was a counter to your assertion but I was wrong. The SBC still opposes gay rights but there is movement in the other direction.
That'll probably take another 140 years.
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  #62  
Old 09-02-2011, 02:41 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Great conversation. I learned a lot, including that Amy Sullivan was religious -- or was she only saying she grew up in a religious milieu? Anyway, Richard Land makes a good impression. I was once a Southern Baptist, for a few years in high school (I'm reform Jewish now), but thought one of the distinguishing things about Baptists was that there were no doctrinal tests -- or, rather, interpretational tests -- as to the meaning of the Gospels or the nature of faith. Each church, no, each individual, was free to make his own personal interpretation, his own reading, based upon the Bible. Even the question of innerancy (sp?) was not spelled out -- innerant in what sense? Literal in what sense? The Bible was the final word about God, but the meaning of the Bible was something only the individual could fathom for him- or herself. Given that latitude I could almost say I still am a Baptist!

Incidentally, on the pro-life issue, my views are changing in a pro-natalist direction. I don't feel abortion should be made absolutely illegal, certainly not at the federal level, or even at the state level, but I do think it is a very serious moral issue, even from a Darwinian point of view. Be fruitful and multiply is a winning formula in the human race, and I'd like to see good liberals breed more than they do now. They are in danger of going extinct.

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  #63  
Old 09-02-2011, 02:55 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
But this post is a good illustration of the sort of exalted, grandiose view the TP holds of itself. Never mind that they're a disliked minority faction in a party that itself claims between a fifth and a third of the population at large
Not really relevant. They claimed a much higher percentage of support during the midterms.

Quote:
they've apparently convinced people like Sulla that "Tea Party" designates some sort of generic American ideal, exemplars of of the American Way, identical in fact and spirit to the best this country offers!
Indeed. Healthiest political phenomenon in the West in the last fifty years. Last best hope for restoration and renewal. People like me are convinced; meaning me.
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  #64  
Old 09-02-2011, 03:36 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
At least there is a prescription. And it isn't as arbitrary as you make it seem. For instance, its push on the left could generally equated with supply-side theory on the right. Yet which theories have more meat to them, in terms of serious economic substance?


I've said it before that few of us here have the actual chops to back up economic theory, and are mainly left with our ideological assumptions. But objectively, the idea of Keynesian stimulus is much more of a consensus economic view than supply-side. Doesn't mean it's right, but it has more standing.
No doubt about it. But this could be another case of selection bias. Central planning, command economies, and liberal Keynesian theory appeals to academic economists because it is active. To hold another position is to turn an economist into a meteorologist, rather than a tinkerer.

Look at the scale of what the Roosevelt administration had to do to actually ACHIEVE a Keynesian model; it wasn't the New Deal (Which was very expensive), it was the war. Same with the Germans, who were MORE Keynesian than we were. No one doubts that you can solve unemployment if you draft 10 million people, and have to fill their jobs with whoever is left. Obviously you can't do it forever. And just like "supply side" economics which mess around with three percent of the marginal tax rate doesn't have much of a stimulative effect (As opposed to Reagan's massive cuts, which even liberals probably wouldn't want reversed now), $230 billion in infrastructure spending is meaningless.
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  #65  
Old 09-02-2011, 03:42 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
That'll probably take another 140 years.
Things are changing awfully fast regarding views on gays in this country.
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  #66  
Old 09-02-2011, 03:44 PM
apple
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Incidentally, on the pro-life issue, my views are changing in a pro-natalist direction. I don't feel abortion should be made absolutely illegal, certainly not at the federal level, or even at the state level, but I do think it is a very serious moral issue, even from a Darwinian point of view.
Darwinian evolution does not proclaim anything to be wrong. It is not a system of ethics (neither is it incompatible with any system of ethics), it is just an observation of what tends to happen, that's all. Even if you were to use Darwin to argue that liberals should reproduce, that still has nothing to do with morality, but with a pragmatic desire to want your ideology to survive.
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  #67  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:05 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Are you a dittohead? Just kidding!
No, but you could say I'm a dottohead wannabe.
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  #68  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:16 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.

The TP is a grassroots movement. Although comparisons can be odious, when the civil rights movement, feminist movement or gay rights movement started it was hard to "name names." Today more than ever, mass movements are leaderless and multidimensional (in the streets, on social media, among independent bloggers). The ideas come first; the names will emerge later. We shouldn't be so quick to write off the TP as a bunch of jingoistic, minority-hating, religious-right loons; the direction, ideology substance of the movement is still up for grabs.

I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally. There was plenty to object to, for sure, but the conversation was more fluid than you might expect. The predominant message of the TP is that both Republicans and Democrats suck. That's a message well worth exploring. It's a good conversation starter.

Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
i think you're pretty self-deluded here Wonder. I had similar hopes for the TP early on, but its really blatantly obvious that nothing like what you hope for will emerge from the TP.
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  #69  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:24 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Unless you mean "heavy weight" in the literal sense, you would be wrong. Richard Land is not a serious person.
i liked his attack on "obamacare" as a "backdoor reduction of medicare spending" while supporting the TP'ers that want to kill off medicare entirely. a serious person he is not.

another incoherent Obama hater? yep.
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  #70  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:30 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Not really relevant. They claimed a much higher percentage of support during the midterms.
So, they were better liked before anybody saw them perform in office?

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Indeed. Healthiest political phenomenon in the West in the last fifty years. Last best hope for restoration and renewal. People like me are convinced; meaning me.
I can't argue with that!
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  #71  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:37 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
So, they were better liked before anybody saw them perform in office?
Yep, before they began to bear the heavy burden of all the Obama administration's failures and missteps. But that, again, doesn't matter. What we are discussing is the natural sympathies and inclinations of the middle class. Which are tea partyish in nature. So the high levels of support the Tea Party enjoyed last year are more reflective of the attitudes of the Middle class than their current views.
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  #72  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:43 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Yep, before they began to bear the heavy burden of all the Obama administration's failures and missteps. But that, again, doesn't matter. What we are discussing is the natural sympathies and inclinations of the middle class. Which are tea partyish in nature. So the high levels of support the Tea Party enjoyed last year are more reflective of the attitudes of the Middle class than their current views.
Like I said in an earlier post: we tend to find what we're looking for when we go searching for patterns.
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  #73  
Old 09-02-2011, 05:32 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Are Catholics Evangelicals? Land's description on what a Christian should believe at the tail end of the diavlog sounded like an abbreviated form of the Roman Catholic Apostles Creed.

(I hope I capitalized correctly).

Last edited by bkjazfan; 09-02-2011 at 05:53 PM..
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  #74  
Old 09-02-2011, 05:52 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
No, but you could say I'm a dottohead wannabe.
Good! You had me worried there for awhile. I have wanted to use that word several times but did not thinking I would be accused of being a dittohead.
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  #75  
Old 09-02-2011, 05:55 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

"Finally a discussion on Christianity from a heavy weight and the real deal."

If Richard Land and the Southern Baptists are the "real deal" of Christianity, my neighbor's dog is God. The Southern Baptist Church was founded solely on the ratification of sin into a bogus theology. They've backtracked out of embarrassment on racial issues for a dozen or so years, but the SB's continue their practice of bigotry by focusing attacks on gay people. Land is a hack for the political Right. Also, the recently affirmed Southern Baptist doctrine of "biblical inerrancy" as dogma is a theological travesty. Beyond the scope of blog comments, but Land is not even close to a "heavyweight" - they don't get any lighter or more fabricated and phony. Here's some commentary on just how destructive and crackpot Land's faction is, even in context of the concerns of conservative Christians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souther...ive_resurgence
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  #76  
Old 09-02-2011, 06:22 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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i think you're pretty self-deluded here Wonder. I had similar hopes for the TP early on, but its really blatantly obvious that nothing like what you hope for will emerge from the TP.
I guess I'm not being too clear here. It's not the TP per se that interests me. It's the influence of thinkers like Ron Paul who have radically rejected US militarism and interventionism. Paul is often called "the Godfather of the Tea Party" and he's revered among many TPers, libertarians and anti-Democrat college students. The TPers have a strong anti-militarism current that progressives can encourage.

Paul has changed the conversation among Republicans, and although there is no chance that he can be elected president, and although it is true that he holds many views that liberals like me find to be anathema, there is now a clear and increasingly powerful alternative on the right to blank-check support for the Pentagon and jingoist enthusiasm for all US wars. The Bush-Cheney neo-cons, the McCains, the Lindsays, the Congressional chicken hawks are no longer unopposed; in fact they look increasingly anachronistic.

That means that both War Parties now have strong anti-militarism wings that have the potential to influence policy and give Americans a sustainable peace dividend.

The peace dividend can be invested in jobs, the environment, social welfare and justice.
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  #77  
Old 09-02-2011, 06:50 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I guess I'm not being too clear here. It's not the TP per se that interests me. It's the influence of thinkers like Ron Paul who have radically rejected US militarism and interventionism. Paul is often called "the Godfather of the Tea Party" and he's revered among many TPers, libertarians and anti-Democrat college students. The TPers have a strong anti-militarism current that progressives can encourage.

Paul has changed the conversation among Republicans, and although there is no chance that he can be elected president, and although it is true that he holds many views that liberals like me find to be anathema, there is now a clear and increasingly powerful alternative on the right to blank-check support for the Pentagon and jingoist enthusiasm for all US wars. The Bush-Cheney neo-cons, the McCains, the Lindsays, the Congressional chicken hawks are no longer unopposed; in fact they look increasingly anachronistic.

That means that both War Parties now have strong anti-militarism wings that have the potential to influence policy and give Americans a sustainable peace dividend.

The peace dividend can be invested in jobs, the environment, social welfare and justice.
That's more understandable, Wonderment.
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  #78  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:01 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
That means that both War Parties now have strong anti-militarism wings that have the potential to influence policy and give Americans a sustainable peace dividend.

The peace dividend can be invested in jobs, the environment, social welfare and justice.
As someone who has supported Ron Paul for a long time, I urge you to read this piece by Will Wilkinson denouncing Ron Paul.
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  #79  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:22 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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As someone who has supported Ron Paul for a long time, I urge you to read this piece by Will Wilkinson denouncing Ron Paul.
Yes, plenty to denounce there. But I notice what Will DOESN"T denounce, and indeed admires, is Paul's stance on militarism. He's especially impressed, as am I, by the moral courage evinced by Paul in speaking about "blowback" from our long history of meddling in the Middle East.

Ron Paul deserves a place of great honor among peace activists. His voting record on war and militarism should be studied and emulated by more Democrats and Republicans.
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  #80  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:37 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Ron Paul deserves a place of great honor among peace activists. His voting record on war and militarism should be studied and emulated by more Democrats and Republicans.
Absolutely. I still support Ron Paul and I've thoroughly researched him throughout the years. Everything in the Wilkinson piece is no surprise to me, even though I line up ideologically with Wilkinson on 90% of the issues. I just happen to disagree with his conclusion on this one.
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