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  #41  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:10 PM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default Re: Operation Tiger

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcohen57 View Post
Here the the relevant passage from my father's memoir: "the company commander ...
Thanks for that, Josh. Very moving.
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  #42  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:12 PM
Simon Willard Simon Willard is offline
 
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Default Re: The "Mosque"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
It's a deal. I love old Concord. But who knows when? I left Cambridge and environs in 1992, and all my Boston friends have since moved on to greener pastures.
Next time you're in the sylvan exurbs. See, I'm thinking we can trade barbs, but holding out the promise of a "beer summit", we won't be consigned to the "flame war" page.
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  #43  
Old 08-03-2010, 09:31 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: For the record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Willard View Post
Yeah, actually, I think this diavlog works surprisingly well, given the level of disagreement between Josh and Jim. They are both good at listening and interacting intellectually. I would come back for another Josh/Jim face-off.
Agreed.
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  #44  
Old 08-03-2010, 09:31 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Operation Tiger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post
Thanks for that, Josh. Very moving.
Yes, thank you, Josh.
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  #45  
Old 08-03-2010, 09:54 PM
Big_Time_Gumshoe Big_Time_Gumshoe is offline
 
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Posts: 47
Default Re: Mosque reax.

These are probably the best takes I've seen on the issue.

Quote:
It might be worth pointing out to the knuckleheads who are protesting the building of a mosque near Ground Zero that there's been a Japanese Shinto Shrine very close to Pearl Harbor for a very long time. I'd also be willing to bet that there are German Lutheran churches in NYC close to where German submarines were sinking US merchant ships in WWII. Somehow the Greatest Generation managed to deal with these things. Why can't we?
Quote:
Lost in all of the pseudo-patriotic posturing and puffing by Gingrich, Palin et al., is the fact that it is against Federal Law for the City or State of New York to attempt to prevent the use of the buildings in question for religious (including Islamic) purposes absent a compelling government interest in preventing that use. The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act ("RLUIPA"), (U.S.C. ß 2000cc-1 et seq.), section 2(a)(1) states that:

"No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation in a manner that imposes a substantial burden on the religious exercise of a person, including a religious assembly or institution, unless the government demonstrates that imposition of the burden on that person, assembly, or institution--
(A) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and
(B) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest."

In other words, if the City of New York tried to oppose the use of the building in question as a mosque or other place of religious assembly, it would have to demonstrate a compelling interest in why it should be able to do so. And even it it can show a compelling interest, it must also show that preventing the use is the least restrictive way of furthering that interest. In terms of constitutional law, that is the highest possible hurdle to placing a restriction on the practice of religious and is practically impossible to do.

It is ironic that RLUIPA was pushed through largely by Christian groups to prevent local governments from placing zoning restrictions on churches. Of course, they only meant it to apply to Christian churches, not those others.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...hey-ctd-2.html

Attackerman's take.

Quote:
If ever you want to see an effort at stripping American identity from American Muslims, this ad denouncing the Ground Zero Mosque is a perfect case in point. In its conflation of Muslims with al-Qaeda, itís everything Usama bin Laden ever hoped for. The basic critique that the addled conspiracy theorists of al-Qaeda have proffered, in which they are the vanguard of Islamic interests and the measurement of Islamic fidelity, is on display here. Iím surprised it didnít contain the as-Sahab watermark.

Iím an American Jew, born and bred in Brooklyn, New York. Build the Ground Zero Mosque
http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2...ama-bin-laden/

A story from an speakers event on domestic radicalization
Quote:
The lack of a liberal narrative has left the conversation to a paranoid, McCarthyist narrative that makes every American Muslim a potential terrorism sympathizer or suspect. That approach ultimately has consequences, both for our ability to identify potential threats early and to prevent extremist narratives from spreading. David Schanzer, the director of the Triangle Center of Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University and an expert on domestic radicalization said, "I don't think there's any evidence of a cause and effect relationship here, but I am concerned about the tone of public discourse over the past nine years," which he suggested might form "barriers to Muslim youth forming a strong American identity."

Schanzer highlighted "people who are out here saying things like you can't be a faithful Muslim and an American at the same time." That's exactly what Osama bin Laden or Anwar al-Awlaki would say. And unless liberals start speaking up more, it's the only thing Americans are going to hear -- and as a result some of them are going to believe that building an Islamic center near Ground Zero is a tribute to terrorism.
http://blog.prospect.org/blog/adam_s...i_content.html
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  #46  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:23 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The "Mosque"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathertired View Post
Well, the model ostensibly is The 92nd Street Y. A Jewish cultural institution and great promoter of secular humanist values and culture....
nice post
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  #47  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:34 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: A contrite center would be nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
Someone, somewhere made a interesting point a while back about the Cordoba center dedicating some of its space to become like a memorial/museum to Islamic inspired violence. I don't know of many religious institutions that do this. Holocaust museums tend to be separate and apart from any synagogue or church (from my knowledge). It would be nice to see them holding up a mirror to their own religion though... cause it squarely needs it.
That was me and I think it would make a lot of people happy if Islam would admit that some of its doctrine has a way of being used for nefarious purposes.

Like last night I heard about a woman who had her nose and ears cut off by her aggrieved husband. Her punishment was prescribed by a Taliban. She had left him.

Why in the world would she do that?

BTW, I found this interesting site.
It addresses the issues you brought up.

Last edited by badhatharry; 08-04-2010 at 12:12 AM..
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  #48  
Old 08-04-2010, 01:35 AM
Lyle
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Default Re: A contrite center would be nice

Yeah, girl is on the cover of Time magazine this week, I believe. Or Newsweek... don't know which.
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  #49  
Old 08-04-2010, 02:38 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: What did Bill Clinton try to do with bin Laden?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
Pinkerton has a point, and it's exactly what Bill Clinton wanted to do. Woo... you boys need a lesson in history.
No, Pinkerton does not have a point. For one, this is right up there with his fantasies about solving Israel's security problems with a force field. Pinkerton read Aurthur C. Clarke's quote that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" and said "so we'll get fusion and magic in 5 years? Awesome!" No matter how much money DARPA wastes, we're not going to get Bin Laden without good intelligence acquired on the human level. What's more, Clinton failed to disrupt Al-Qaeda with cruise missiles, just as our drone strikes aren't actually solving the problem of Al-Qaeda, and just as Israel hasn't managed to end Palestinian terrorism with missile strikes.

If Pinkerton wants to argue that counterinsurgency is too difficult and risky to provide a worthwhile payoff in Afghanistan, that's fine. I'll probably agree with him. But saying that if only we had put more money in DARPA in 2001, then we'd have magical space lasers now that would solve all of our foreign policy problems is childish and stupid. Pinkerton's techno-fetishism is so out of hand that he's incapable of discussing our actual policy options in Afghanistan. Whenever he's stuck make uncomfortable judgments about costs and benefits of flawed policy options, he just tells us that we ought to develop a magical technological solution. He ought to be confined to discussions of how to eliminate polio. At least there the technological solution is the correct one.

Last edited by Don Zeko; 08-04-2010 at 02:42 AM..
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  #50  
Old 08-04-2010, 02:45 AM
Lyle
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Default We got lasers

I don't think he was speaking overly seriously. I think he was fantasizing a bit. Don't we all from time to time?

Our military does have lasers now (probably why he mentioned lasers) and perhaps in a few years time we will simply zap bin Laden and cohorts to death... or Iranian or North Korean missiles.
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  #51  
Old 08-04-2010, 02:53 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: We got lasers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
I don't think he was speaking overly seriously. I think he was fantasizing a bit. Don't we all from time to time?

Perhaps, but it sounded to me like he was proposing research in that vein as a serious alternative to population-centric COIN.

Our military does have lasers now (probably why he mentioned lasers) and perhaps in a few years time we will simply zap bin Laden and cohorts to death... or Iranian or North Korean missiles.
This is a less-crazy but still wrong version of Pinkerton's thought. It assumes that improvements in technology will only alter the balance of power to our benefit and that there won't be low-tech countermeasures to our fancy new toys. What if Bin Laden gets his hands on sophisticated biological weapons before we figure out that DNA-seeking laser? Take missile defense, for example. It's far easier to build decoy ballistic missiles than it is to build more interceptors for a ballistic missile defense system, so even a fairly small and poor country, like North Korea, has the capacity to overwhelm our incredibly expensive and politically damaging defenses.
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  #52  
Old 08-04-2010, 03:00 AM
listener listener is offline
 
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Default Re: A contrite center would be nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
Yeah, girl is on the cover of Time magazine this week, I believe. Or Newsweek... don't know which.

lylz ideer of girlz
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  #53  
Old 08-04-2010, 03:06 AM
Lyle
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Default What if Hitler had been killed by the Bear Jew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
This is a less-crazy but still wrong version of Pinkerton's thought. It assumes that improvements in technology will only alter the balance of power to our benefit and that there won't be low-tech countermeasures to our fancy new toys. What if Bin Laden gets his hands on sophisticated biological weapons before we figure out that DNA-seeking laser? Take missile defense, for example. It's far easier to build decoy ballistic missiles than it is to build more interceptors for a ballistic missile defense system, so even a fairly small and poor country, like North Korea, has the capacity to overwhelm our incredibly expensive and politically damaging defenses.
Actually no, I think Pinkerton was just daydreaming and you're taking him too seriously. Nor or my comments very serious. I mean, we're not going to zap bin Laden to death.

What Pinkerton is saying though is not controversial. It's what people in the Pentagon are doing every day of the year. Thinking of new ideas and new technologies... like the internet and what not. Who knows what we can come up with? I mean, we fucking got ourselves into space and on the moon. So what if missile defense isn't perfected? We're learning new shit. I mean, from what I read, the North Koreans don't even need to waste their time on decoy ballistic missiles because they can't even fire a missile off with a straight trajectory. Apparently their rockets end up somersaulting through the air, which makes it difficult to hit... cause it ain't going in a nice line (excuse my physics illiteracy).

Whatever though, grand ideas are grand ideas... and like the creation of the atom bomb sometimes they need to be chased.

I mean, Pinkerton is simply looking back and playing the what if game... like what if we could have cornered Hitler into a movie theatre so he could have been blown up by a suicidal Bear Jew? I'd take that deal.

Last edited by Lyle; 08-04-2010 at 03:14 AM..
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  #54  
Old 08-04-2010, 03:11 AM
listener listener is offline
 
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Default Re: We got lasers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
This is a less-crazy but still wrong version of Pinkerton's thought. It assumes that improvements in technology will only alter the balance of power to our benefit and that there won't be low-tech countermeasures to our fancy new toys. What if Bin Laden gets his hands on sophisticated biological weapons before we figure out that DNA-seeking laser? Take missile defense, for example. It's far easier to build decoy ballistic missiles than it is to build more interceptors for a ballistic missile defense system, so even a fairly small and poor country, like North Korea, has the capacity to overwhelm our incredibly expensive and politically damaging defenses.
Yeah, right. More stupid defeatist "America Looses" crap. We will always win with our superior technologhy!
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  #55  
Old 08-05-2010, 10:12 AM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Splitters and Lumpers (Josh Cohen & Jim Pinkerton)

Wait, we've been in a war since 1979? Either we're idiots, or the people we're fighting are. In any case, I don't think it's something we ought to be getting our panties in a knot about.
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  #56  
Old 08-05-2010, 11:42 AM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Splitters and Lumpers (Josh Cohen & Jim Pinkerton)

People like Pinkerton who want to stop this mosque and community center a couple of blocks from the WTC 9/11 site are, as loathe as I am to say it, treading into the terrain of "un-American." If bin Laden had his druthers - let civil society proceed according to equitable rules and see the Islamic center be built, or have a bunch of paranoid, weak sister yahoos and opportunistic FOX News $cumbags strategizing their next book tour raise a mob to stop it, bin Laden would OF COURSE choose the latter to serve his evil ends and his anti-American propaganda in the Muslim world. I'm so disgusted by this rancid crap it's impossible to respond with civility. The rational, decent response is "go F* yourselves", those who would drag us down into the mud on an issue that is so fundamental to our being the kind of country we should seek to be and are at our best. Pinkerton is an ass.

I'm reminded of this bon mot James offered during the election:

"Could Lucifer play a role in this presidential election? It may sound crazy, but one of the candidates in this race has publicly praised, even emulated, a writer-activist who himself paid tribute to Lucifer. Thatís right, Lucifer, also known as the Devil, Satan"

(He was of course talking about Obama, and referencing some caustic commentary by Saul Alinksy - turning it into a muddle of embarrassing and puerile stuff for the FOX "News" websewer.) I think Jim needs to consider psychiatric help, given how wrapped in fear he lives his sad little life. When I see people like Pinkerton or Althouse featured here, BH treading dangerously close to a Jerry Springer show. I couldn't actually watch this one, because giving any more extended hearing to jerks and creeps on the mosque issue than I've already suffered from geeks like Palin, Gingrich, Giuliani and the execrable Abe Foxman of the pro-defamation ADL is beneath my sense of dignity.
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  #57  
Old 08-05-2010, 12:40 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Splitters and Lumpers (Josh Cohen & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
People like Pinkerton who want to stop this mosque and community center a couple of blocks from the WTC 9/11 site are, as loathe as I am to say it, treading into the terrain of "un-American." If bin Laden had his druthers - let civil society proceed according to equitable rules and see the Islamic center be built, or have a bunch of paranoid, weak sister yahoos and opportunistic FOX News $cumbags strategizing their next book tour raise a mob to stop it, bin Laden would OF COURSE choose the latter to serve his evil ends and his anti-American propaganda in the Muslim world. I'm so disgusted by this rancid crap it's impossible to respond with civility. The rational, decent response is "go F* yourselves", those who would drag us down into the mud on an issue that is so fundamental to our being the kind of country we should seek to be and are at our best. Pinkerton is an ass.

I'm reminded of this bon mot James offered during the election:

"Could Lucifer play a role in this presidential election? It may sound crazy, but one of the candidates in this race has publicly praised, even emulated, a writer-activist who himself paid tribute to Lucifer. Thatís right, Lucifer, also known as the Devil, Satan"

(He was of course talking about Obama, and referencing some caustic commentary by Saul Alinksy - turning it into a muddle of embarrassing and puerile stuff for the FOX "News" websewer.) I think Jim needs to consider psychiatric help, given how wrapped in fear he lives his sad little life. When I see people like Pinkerton or Althouse featured here, BH treading dangerously close to a Jerry Springer show. I couldn't actually watch this one, because giving any more extended hearing to jerks and creeps on the mosque issue than I've already suffered from geeks like Palin, Gingrich, Giuliani and the execrable Abe Foxman of the pro-defamation ADL is beneath my sense of dignity.
Hear, hear.
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  #58  
Old 08-05-2010, 03:00 PM
Alloptionsonthetable Alloptionsonthetable is offline
 
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Default Re: The "Mosque"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
This is a tempest in a teapot if there ever was one. I can't believe that Americans like Jim Pinkerton are making a big fuss about this. Paris has had a mosque and Islamic cultural center since the 1920s where non Muslims are welcome. It is a very pleasant place. There is even a restaurant and a hamman open to the general public.

The New Yorkers I know are laughing at this debate.
Forget Paris - take the train down to DC, hop on the Red Line, walk from the Dupont station down to Mass Ave and check out the beautiful Mosque and Islamic Center right here in the nations capitol. I first went on a weekend, and lots of folks hanging out, sitting with the Imam on the floor and asking him questions about Islam. Another time there was a wedding happening. It's a great space and beautiful building (built in 1957 according to their website: http://www.theislamiccenter.com).
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  #59  
Old 08-05-2010, 03:22 PM
Brenda Brenda is offline
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Default Exile averted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Willard View Post
I'm thinking we can trade barbs, but holding out the promise of a "beer summit", we won't be consigned to the "flame war" page.
Very clever, Simon Willard, very clever. But I have my eye on you.

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  #60  
Old 08-05-2010, 04:03 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Splitters and Lumpers (Josh Cohen & Jim Pinkerton)

Good for bloggingheads - in deleting a mildly sarcastic comment, intended as ironic snark - you have established that it is fine - allegedly useful even to such benighted elites as visitors to the New York Times website - to spend entire segments of diavlogs indulging in stupid insulting commentary and insinuations about Americans of the Muslim faith, but you can't insult yahoo reactionaries posing as "conservatives."

Kudos.

ooops - wrong thread, though relevant
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  #61  
Old 08-06-2010, 10:23 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Oh, Jonah. Not again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
Good for bloggingheads - in deleting a mildly sarcastic comment, intended as ironic snark - you have established that it is fine - allegedly useful even to such benighted elites as visitors to the New York Times website - to spend entire segments of diavlogs indulging in stupid insulting commentary and insinuations about Americans of the Muslim faith, but you can't insult yahoo reactionaries posing as "conservatives."
And speaking of whom ...

Someone -- the mentioning of whose pants shall be frowned upon henceforth -- attempted a Very Serious Thoughtfulô post on the ZOMG TEH MAAAHHHHHSK!!!1! issue, and though he managed to diss CNN and other "progressive meddlers," not to mention praising St. McMegan Of Important Economic Thinking, all within his opening sentences, he still appears (to his "readers" at least) to have forgotten who is signing his paychecks.

Backpedal! Warp Factor 8!!!1! (I.e., hilarity ensues.)

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Last edited by bjkeefe; 08-06-2010 at 10:27 PM..
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  #62  
Old 08-08-2010, 08:12 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Splitters and Lumpers (Josh Cohen & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
[...] I couldn't actually watch this one, because giving any more extended hearing to jerks and creeps on the mosque issue than I've already suffered from geeks like Palin, Gingrich, ...
Speaking of whom, please enjoy this example of someone who knows about history responding to Gingrich's "understanding" of it.

The resident Islamophobes, I feel certain, will not want to risk it.

(h/t: @KagroX, RTing @Populista)
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