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  #1  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:52 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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  #2  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:20 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

The Religious Right is alive and active today via the Tea Party. The two overlap. They are both dogmatic and driven by ideology rather than empiricism or pragmatism. Just listen to the religious rigidity of Perry, Bachmann and Palin, which is red meat for most of the Tea Party, though cloaked in mindless policy dogmatism. Mindless faith over reason. Richard is correct about the fact that abortion underlies the political divide in Washington to a far greater degree than is discussed.
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  #3  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:30 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Markos View Post
The Religious Right is alive and active today via the Tea Party. The two overlap. They are both dogmatic and driven by ideology rather than empiricism or pragmatism. Just listen to the religious rigidity of Perry, Bachmann and Palin, which is red meat for most of the Tea Party, though cloaked in mindless policy dogmatism. Mindless faith over reason. Richard is correct about the fact that abortion underlies the political divide in Washington to a far greater degree than is discussed.
Tell me more.
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  #4  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:17 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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The Religious Right is alive and active today via the Tea Party. The two overlap. They are both dogmatic and driven by ideology rather than empiricism or pragmatism. Just listen to the religious rigidity of Perry, Bachmann and Palin, which is red meat for most of the Tea Party, though cloaked in mindless policy dogmatism. Mindless faith over reason. Richard is correct about the fact that abortion underlies the political divide in Washington to a far greater degree than is discussed.
I think you are muddying the waters here. It's true that many T-Partiers are card-carrying members of the religious right, but that doesn't tell you much. Many progressive Democrats are from the religious left. So what? The libertarian wing of the TP is generally non-religious, and the economic and foreign policies views of the TP are consistent with secularism.

There's a big change going on in the Republican party base in terms of foreign policy, and Perry, Bachman and Palin are NOT representative of that change. Its prophet is Ron Paul, and his influence is reshaping the party.

Rather than writing off the TP, the better move is to separate its wheat from chaff and support those elements in the TP that are pro-peace, secular, non-xenophobic and green.
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  #5  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:28 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Rather than writing off the TP, the better move is to separate its wheat from chaff and support those elements in the TP that are pro-peace, secular, non-xenophobic and green.
Name names here, Wonderment. Who exactly are you referring to?
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  #6  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:35 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Name names here, Wonderment. Who exactly are you referring to?
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.

The TP is a grassroots movement. Although comparisons can be odious, when the civil rights movement, feminist movement or gay rights movement started it was hard to "name names." Today more than ever, mass movements are leaderless and multidimensional (in the streets, on social media, among independent bloggers). The ideas come first; the names will emerge later. We shouldn't be so quick to write off the TP as a bunch of jingoistic, minority-hating, religious-right loons; the direction, ideology substance of the movement is still up for grabs.

I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally. There was plenty to object to, for sure, but the conversation was more fluid than you might expect. The predominant message of the TP is that both Republicans and Democrats suck. That's a message well worth exploring. It's a good conversation starter.

Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
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  #7  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:53 AM
chamblee54 chamblee54 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
The three descriptions could be used interchangeably with the three personalities. Michele Bachmann has the best hair.

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  #8  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:00 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
...
Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
They're idiots and buffoons. They make the Republican party stupider. They're foot-stomping political naifs with puerile instincts, and there's no distinction between them and "the likes of" Bachmann, Palin and Beck - each of whom exemplifies one or more of the ugly characteristics shared by the whole movement, and each of whom bears responsibility for a portion both the vapidity and the current strength of the movement.

I hope I haven't been too subtle about expressing myself here.
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  #9  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:35 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
They're idiots and buffoons. They make the Republican party stupider. They're foot-stomping political naifs with puerile instincts, and there's no distinction between them and "the likes of" Bachmann, Palin and Beck - each of whom exemplifies one or more of the ugly characteristics shared by the whole movement, and each of whom bears responsibility for a portion both the vapidity and the current strength of the movement.
.
Why did they have to show up and ruin everything?!
sniff
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  #10  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:37 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
They're idiots and buffoons. They make the Republican party stupider. They're foot-stomping political naifs with puerile instincts, and there's no distinction between them and "the likes of" Bachmann, Palin and Beck - each of whom exemplifies one or more of the ugly characteristics shared by the whole movement, and each of whom bears responsibility for a portion both the vapidity and the current strength of the movement.

I hope I haven't been too subtle about expressing myself here.
The American Middle Class is a bunch of idiots. Smash these bourgeois wreckers.
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  #11  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:27 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
The American Middle Class is a bunch of idiots. Smash these bourgeois wreckers.
I don't recall saying a single word about the "American Middle Class," of whom I certainly count as a member. But this post is a good illustration of the sort of exalted, grandiose view the TP holds of itself. Never mind that they're a disliked minority faction in a party that itself claims between a fifth and a third of the population at large; they've apparently convinced people like Sulla that "Tea Party" designates some sort of generic American ideal, exemplars of of the American Way, identical in fact and spirit to the best this country offers!
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Last edited by AemJeff; 09-02-2011 at 10:37 AM..
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  #12  
Old 09-02-2011, 02:55 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
But this post is a good illustration of the sort of exalted, grandiose view the TP holds of itself. Never mind that they're a disliked minority faction in a party that itself claims between a fifth and a third of the population at large
Not really relevant. They claimed a much higher percentage of support during the midterms.

Quote:
they've apparently convinced people like Sulla that "Tea Party" designates some sort of generic American ideal, exemplars of of the American Way, identical in fact and spirit to the best this country offers!
Indeed. Healthiest political phenomenon in the West in the last fifty years. Last best hope for restoration and renewal. People like me are convinced; meaning me.
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  #13  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:30 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Not really relevant. They claimed a much higher percentage of support during the midterms.
So, they were better liked before anybody saw them perform in office?

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Indeed. Healthiest political phenomenon in the West in the last fifty years. Last best hope for restoration and renewal. People like me are convinced; meaning me.
I can't argue with that!
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  #14  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:37 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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So, they were better liked before anybody saw them perform in office?
Yep, before they began to bear the heavy burden of all the Obama administration's failures and missteps. But that, again, doesn't matter. What we are discussing is the natural sympathies and inclinations of the middle class. Which are tea partyish in nature. So the high levels of support the Tea Party enjoyed last year are more reflective of the attitudes of the Middle class than their current views.
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  #15  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:43 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Yep, before they began to bear the heavy burden of all the Obama administration's failures and missteps. But that, again, doesn't matter. What we are discussing is the natural sympathies and inclinations of the middle class. Which are tea partyish in nature. So the high levels of support the Tea Party enjoyed last year are more reflective of the attitudes of the Middle class than their current views.
Like I said in an earlier post: we tend to find what we're looking for when we go searching for patterns.
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  #16  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:39 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Like I said in an earlier post: we tend to find what we're looking for when we go searching for patterns.
The real world contains patterns. Indeed, the Tea Party is almost perfectly representative of the historical Left's critique of the American and English middle classes. Now that the Left has assembled in a cultural confederation rather than a genuine political movement interested in economics, critiques of the middle class are no longer in fashion.
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  #17  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.

The TP is a grassroots movement. Although comparisons can be odious, when the civil rights movement, feminist movement or gay rights movement started it was hard to "name names." Today more than ever, mass movements are leaderless and multidimensional (in the streets, on social media, among independent bloggers). The ideas come first; the names will emerge later. We shouldn't be so quick to write off the TP as a bunch of jingoistic, minority-hating, religious-right loons; the direction, ideology substance of the movement is still up for grabs.

I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally. There was plenty to object to, for sure, but the conversation was more fluid than you might expect. The predominant message of the TP is that both Republicans and Democrats suck. That's a message well worth exploring. It's a good conversation starter.
Keep hope alive. Obama 12, right?

Quote:
Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
Wow, the power of words. Who knew that just uttering "wingnut" could crush the nascent peace and freedom "coalition of wingers and lefties" you found by happenstance one fine day in the park.
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  #18  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:03 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally.
Did you get a sense of who they were in favor of? Ron Paul, Bachmann or Perry?
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  #19  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:14 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Did you get a sense of who they were in favor of? Ron Paul, Bachmann or Perry?
As I said, this was a couple of years ago. Bachmann was still a nobody, Perry was busy fixin' executions in Texas, and most of the sentiment was anti rather than pro: anti-Bush, anti-Obama, anti-establishment.

My impression was there was a mix of enthusiasm for Palin and for Ron Paul.
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  #20  
Old 09-02-2011, 11:44 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
As I said, this was a couple of years ago. Bachmann was still a nobody, Perry was busy fixin' executions in Texas, and most of the sentiment was anti rather than pro: anti-Bush, anti-Obama, anti-establishment.

My impression was there was a mix of enthusiasm for Palin and for Ron Paul.
Whoops. I missed the couple years ago part.
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  #21  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:26 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.

The TP is a grassroots movement. Although comparisons can be odious, when the civil rights movement, feminist movement or gay rights movement started it was hard to "name names." Today more than ever, mass movements are leaderless and multidimensional (in the streets, on social media, among independent bloggers). The ideas come first; the names will emerge later. We shouldn't be so quick to write off the TP as a bunch of jingoistic, minority-hating, religious-right loons; the direction, ideology substance of the movement is still up for grabs.

I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally. There was plenty to object to, for sure, but the conversation was more fluid than you might expect. The predominant message of the TP is that both Republicans and Democrats suck. That's a message well worth exploring. It's a good conversation starter.

Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
I'm still seeing precious little evidence that this dissident energy exists in any meaningful form. Compare what you're doing here to the line I excerpted from your previous post, in which you identify the strains within the TP that you want to nurture:


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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Rather than writing off the TP, the better move is to separate its wheat from chaff and support those elements in the TP that are pro-peace, secular, non-xenophobic and green.
So from that, we get discussion of Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Well Ron Paul is the only one of those two that is even slightly non-marginal within the TP, and he's neither secular nor green. This sort of cherry-picking of points of agreement and hand-waving of serious differences (opposition to most of the welfare state, crank monetary policy views, and extremely strong pro-life views being the tip of the iceberg in Paul's case) shows up every time you try to identify your diamonds in the Tea Party rough and sell them to us. Given that there's ample polling data supporting my opinion that the Tea Party is basically just a re-branding of Republican Party, I'm doubtful that mean comments by Liberals are going to change anything. I mean, have we forgotten what the Tea Party's darling candidates looked like in 2010? Christine Odonnell, Sharron Angle, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio...where exactly are pro-peace candidates here? The secular ones? The Greens?

I don't doubt that you've talked to people more congenial to your world view at TP events, but that hardly reflects upon the movement as a whole or the candidates and policies that it produces. After all, I've talked to plenty of folks at Democratic Party events that veer off into odd areas of the political spectrum that the Party as an institution has nothing to with. At this point, the looks like the GOP, talks like the GOP, and walks like the GOP. Let's call it what it is.
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  #22  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:44 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Fair points. Keep an open mind about the Paulites: Peace is green.
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  #23  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:41 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.
I don't think Ron Paul would support, as you do, carte blanche benefits to illegal immigrants.

Quote:
No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services.
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  #24  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:35 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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I don't think Ron Paul would support, as you do, carte blanche benefits to illegal immigrants.
Ron Paul doesn't want benefits for American citizens, so in this regard he seems to support equal treatment.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:00 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Ron Paul doesn't want benefits for American citizens, so in this regard he seems to support equal treatment.
Yes, he's a do it yourself kind of guy.
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  #26  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:16 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.

The TP is a grassroots movement. Although comparisons can be odious, when the civil rights movement, feminist movement or gay rights movement started it was hard to "name names." Today more than ever, mass movements are leaderless and multidimensional (in the streets, on social media, among independent bloggers). The ideas come first; the names will emerge later. We shouldn't be so quick to write off the TP as a bunch of jingoistic, minority-hating, religious-right loons; the direction, ideology substance of the movement is still up for grabs.

I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally. There was plenty to object to, for sure, but the conversation was more fluid than you might expect. The predominant message of the TP is that both Republicans and Democrats suck. That's a message well worth exploring. It's a good conversation starter.

Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
i think you're pretty self-deluded here Wonder. I had similar hopes for the TP early on, but its really blatantly obvious that nothing like what you hope for will emerge from the TP.
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  #27  
Old 09-02-2011, 06:22 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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i think you're pretty self-deluded here Wonder. I had similar hopes for the TP early on, but its really blatantly obvious that nothing like what you hope for will emerge from the TP.
I guess I'm not being too clear here. It's not the TP per se that interests me. It's the influence of thinkers like Ron Paul who have radically rejected US militarism and interventionism. Paul is often called "the Godfather of the Tea Party" and he's revered among many TPers, libertarians and anti-Democrat college students. The TPers have a strong anti-militarism current that progressives can encourage.

Paul has changed the conversation among Republicans, and although there is no chance that he can be elected president, and although it is true that he holds many views that liberals like me find to be anathema, there is now a clear and increasingly powerful alternative on the right to blank-check support for the Pentagon and jingoist enthusiasm for all US wars. The Bush-Cheney neo-cons, the McCains, the Lindsays, the Congressional chicken hawks are no longer unopposed; in fact they look increasingly anachronistic.

That means that both War Parties now have strong anti-militarism wings that have the potential to influence policy and give Americans a sustainable peace dividend.

The peace dividend can be invested in jobs, the environment, social welfare and justice.
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  #28  
Old 09-02-2011, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I guess I'm not being too clear here. It's not the TP per se that interests me. It's the influence of thinkers like Ron Paul who have radically rejected US militarism and interventionism. Paul is often called "the Godfather of the Tea Party" and he's revered among many TPers, libertarians and anti-Democrat college students. The TPers have a strong anti-militarism current that progressives can encourage.

Paul has changed the conversation among Republicans, and although there is no chance that he can be elected president, and although it is true that he holds many views that liberals like me find to be anathema, there is now a clear and increasingly powerful alternative on the right to blank-check support for the Pentagon and jingoist enthusiasm for all US wars. The Bush-Cheney neo-cons, the McCains, the Lindsays, the Congressional chicken hawks are no longer unopposed; in fact they look increasingly anachronistic.

That means that both War Parties now have strong anti-militarism wings that have the potential to influence policy and give Americans a sustainable peace dividend.

The peace dividend can be invested in jobs, the environment, social welfare and justice.
That's more understandable, Wonderment.
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  #29  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:01 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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That means that both War Parties now have strong anti-militarism wings that have the potential to influence policy and give Americans a sustainable peace dividend.

The peace dividend can be invested in jobs, the environment, social welfare and justice.
As someone who has supported Ron Paul for a long time, I urge you to read this piece by Will Wilkinson denouncing Ron Paul.
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  #30  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:22 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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As someone who has supported Ron Paul for a long time, I urge you to read this piece by Will Wilkinson denouncing Ron Paul.
Yes, plenty to denounce there. But I notice what Will DOESN"T denounce, and indeed admires, is Paul's stance on militarism. He's especially impressed, as am I, by the moral courage evinced by Paul in speaking about "blowback" from our long history of meddling in the Middle East.

Ron Paul deserves a place of great honor among peace activists. His voting record on war and militarism should be studied and emulated by more Democrats and Republicans.
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  #31  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:37 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Ron Paul deserves a place of great honor among peace activists. His voting record on war and militarism should be studied and emulated by more Democrats and Republicans.
Absolutely. I still support Ron Paul and I've thoroughly researched him throughout the years. Everything in the Wilkinson piece is no surprise to me, even though I line up ideologically with Wilkinson on 90% of the issues. I just happen to disagree with his conclusion on this one.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:31 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Ron Paul deserves a place of great honor among peace activists. His voting record on war and militarism should be studied and emulated by more Democrats and Republicans.
One step forward, two steps back. Ay, ay, ay. Otra vez con la misma historia?
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  #33  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:22 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Otra vez con la misma historia?
I try to stay on message.
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  #34  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:38 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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As someone who has supported Ron Paul for a long time, I urge you to read this piece by Will Wilkinson denouncing Ron Paul.
I haven't paid much attention to Ron Paul and haven't read anything he's written, and don't know who Will Wilkinson is.

But from that piece you linked to, it sounds like Will Wilkinson is a leftist trying to co opt the libertarian label. It reminds me of the extremely politically correct Bill Maher calling his show "Politically Incorrect".

Someone should tell Will Wilkinson, in regard to "libertarianism.,,,,,"
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  #35  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:45 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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But from that piece you linked to, it sounds like Will Wilkinson is a leftist trying to co opt the libertarian label. It reminds me of the extremely politically correct Bill Maher calling his show "Politically Incorrect".
Wilkinson is a serious thinker, though you might not like his opinions. He attempted a libertarian-liberal alliance some time ago, so that's probably why he oozes Left. He used to run a show on BHTV called "Free Will" where he'd invite philosophers, economists, etc. You can give him a search if you're interested. He used to be an editor of one of Cato's publications. Cato Unbound maybe? I can't remember. He mostly writes for The Economist these days.
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Old 09-02-2011, 07:48 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Wilkinson is a serious thinker, though you might not like his opinions. He attempted a libertarian-liberal alliance some time ago, so that's probably why he oozes Left. He used to run a show on BHTV called "Free Will" where he'd invite philosophers, economists, etc. You can give him a search if you're interested. He used to be an editor of one of Cato's publications. Cato Unbound maybe? I can't remember. He mostly writes for The Economist these days.
Thanks for the reference. That sounds something I would enjoy. I wonder why he doesn't do it anymore?
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:18 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Thanks for the reference. That sounds something I would enjoy. I wonder why he doesn't do it anymore?
I wish he would. His 2007 diavlog with Ezra Klein is quite good for meta analysis. I watched it for the first time a few months ago and it really gives insight into their personalities and objectives. Wilkinson is interested in truth and Klein is more interested in power. Not to say that it's that way now, but it certainly seemed to be their respective motives in 2007.
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:28 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Wilkinson is interested in truth and Klein is more interested in power.
and who is interested in speaking truth to power? stupid, i know...graz???
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  #39  
Old 09-02-2011, 08:42 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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and who is interested in speaking truth to power? stupid, i know...graz???
I almost missed my cue. Answer -- we are. Problem is, our truths are dissimilar and the power to which we would apply it are on opposing poles. Hence the sparks. Oh well.
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Old 09-01-2011, 11:45 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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I think you are muddying the waters here. It's true that many T-Partiers are card-carrying members of the religious right, but that doesn't tell you much. Many progressive Democrats are from the religious left. So what? The libertarian wing of the TP is generally non-religious, and the economic and foreign policies views of the TP are consistent with secularism.
But the problem is that, if that's true, it's a vanishingly small wing of the tea party. Any of the polling that has been done suggests that the tea party is even more likely than republicans generally to be anti-abortion, anti-gay-marriage and pro-religious-tests.

I suspect your admirable optimism may be coloring your judgment of how many potential allies for your views exist within the tea party.
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