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  #1  
Old 06-08-2011, 09:04 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Slavering Sanctimonious Panopticon Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

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  #2  
Old 06-08-2011, 10:37 AM
eric eric is offline
 
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Default It's all about the team

These women argue that the big tragedy here is how Weiner hurt their beloved liberal Democratic agenda. To have such a limited, narcissistic filter for analyzing current events suggests they are simply partisan shills--rationalized appropriately as doing good--but simple apologists just the same.
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  #3  
Old 06-08-2011, 10:51 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by eric View Post
These women argue that the big tragedy here is how Weiner hurt their beloved liberal Democratic agenda. To have such a limited, narcissistic filter for analyzing current events suggests they are simply partisan shills--rationalized appropriately as doing good--but simple apologists just the same.
So caring about broad political ideals and whether some clumsy onanist has damaged those ideals is "narcissism?" I think you might want to check your dictionary.
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  #4  
Old 06-08-2011, 02:13 PM
eric eric is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
So caring about broad political ideals and whether some clumsy onanist has damaged hose ideals is "narcisissism?" I think you might want to check your dictionary.
It's narcissistic because real intellectuals discuss ideas, as opposed to simply assuming their politics are right and then discuss how events help or hurt your cause.
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  #5  
Old 06-08-2011, 03:58 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by eric View Post
It's narcissistic because real intellectuals discuss ideas, as opposed to simply assuming their politics are right and then discuss how events help or hurt your cause.
I see. You let us know if you see any of those "real intellectuals," all right?
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  #6  
Old 06-08-2011, 04:11 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by eric View Post
It's narcissistic because real intellectuals discuss ideas, as opposed to simply assuming their politics are right and then discuss how events help or hurt your cause.
Have you read these message boards?
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  #7  
Old 06-08-2011, 06:00 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Have you read these message boards?
True, but the real problem with the argument is not "everyone does it," but that the topic of the conversation was not "intellectual arguments for Rebecca's and Michelle's political views." It was "what is your reaction to Weiner." And I strongly suspect that was a topic that bloggingheads decided it would be interesting to have a couple of female liberals comment on.

So unless eric wants to bitch in all the diavlogs that talk about political strategy type things or any number of other things other than "intellectual defenses of the diavloggers' positions," his comment here is pretty strange.
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  #8  
Old 06-09-2011, 02:07 AM
Hume's Bastard Hume's Bastard is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by eric View Post
It's narcissistic because real intellectuals discuss ideas, as opposed to simply assuming their politics are right and then discuss how events help or hurt your cause.
So, you oppose pragmatism? Winning?
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  #9  
Old 06-08-2011, 12:18 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by eric View Post
These women argue that the big tragedy here is how Weiner hurt their beloved liberal Democratic agenda. To have such a limited, narcissistic filter for analyzing current events suggests they are simply partisan shills--rationalized appropriately as doing good--but simple apologists just the same.
Interesting. I, on the other hand, love that Weiner has hurt their beloved liberal Democrat agenda if that is true.

Meanwhile, attacks on the republicans will have to be ramped up. Debbie Wasserman Shultz has recently accused the GOP of wanting to revert back to the good ol' Jim Crow days. Hey, whatever it takes!

And the bureaucracy chuggs on, eating up resources, and the Congress can't pass a budget. What a circus.
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  #10  
Old 06-09-2011, 10:48 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Interesting. I, on the other hand, love that Weiner has hurt their beloved liberal Democrat agenda if that is true.
My guess is that this is what we all feel when someone who represents our beliefs/politics/etc. embarrasses themselves in public. It shouldn't reflect on those beliefs*, but it no doubt always does as a manner of "optics".

*The exception here maybe being closeted gay politicians who actively argue against gay rights. That seems to go to something more problematic with the cognitive assumptions of the anti-gay agenda.
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  #11  
Old 06-09-2011, 11:32 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
My guess is that this is what we all feel when someone who represents our beliefs/politics/etc. embarrasses themselves in public. It shouldn't reflect on those beliefs*, but it no doubt always does as a manner of "optics".

*The exception here maybe being closeted gay politicians who actively argue against gay rights. That seems to go to something more problematic with the cognitive assumptions of the anti-gay agenda.
I start with the idea that all politicians are deeply flawed and then wait to be surprised.

The thing I have gleaned from the comments section is that people who identify as liberals have a tough time making moral judgements about sexuality. But Weiner himself knew what he did was wrong, deep down. That's why he lied.

And his actions have cast a bad light on everything he's done up until now. He has become an object of ridicule. I think this reflects a deep societal truth, that no matter how much we want to get away from silly Victorian norms, certain things are immutable and certain acts will never really be tolerated. Which is a very good thing in my estimation.
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  #12  
Old 06-09-2011, 11:52 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
The thing I have gleaned from the comments section is that people who identify as liberals have a tough time making moral judgements about sexuality. But Weiner himself knew what he did was wrong, deep down. That's why he lied.
First of all, sugarkang, who was at least as 'nonjudgmental' as anyone else is a libertarian, not a liberal, and there are plenty of liberals, myself included who have been clear that sexual behavior has a moral component.

But, really? you can't think of ANY other reason than 'he knew it was wrong' for him to lie? At the very least, it's possible he thought it was okay, but politically risky.
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  #13  
Old 06-09-2011, 12:00 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
But, really? you can't think of ANY other reason than 'he knew it was wrong' for him to lie? At the very least, it's possible he thought it was okay, but politically risky.
I really haven't kept up with sugarkang's comments except his statement that he doesn't lie.
But at the bottom of it, the fact that it was politically risky, shows that it was wrong. I know that sounds simple but how do we humans know what is right or wrong? A lot of it has to do with what we assume the reaction will be to our actions. That's how society works.
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  #14  
Old 06-09-2011, 12:14 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I really haven't kept up with sugarkang's comments except his statement that he doesn't lie.
But at the bottom of it, the fact that it was politically risky, shows that it was wrong.
Sugarkang has said in the past that he's libertarian. You *assume* that anyone who doesn't think this is a moral problem must be a liberal. I think it's a moral problem and I am a liberal. Others don't and aren't. Your generalization is just wrong. it is the only proof of itself.

As to whether something being politically risk meaning it is wrong, this is simply not the case. (in this case, *i* think it is, but the fact that Weiner knew it was politically risky doesn't mean anything one way or the other about whether he thought it was wrong).

There are a HOST of activities that are currently or recently seen as political liabilities, but have nothing to do with right or wrong: being in an interracial marriage, being Jewish or Muslim, (for men) crying in public, having an outspoken spouse, having a silly haircut, being fat, criticising society's sacred cows, et cetera, ad infinitum.

if you are really arguing that the popularity of a thing is a reliable indicator of its morality, that's a kind of relativism that (like you did with sex above) is often attributed to godless liberals. But I guess we're all post-modernists now.
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  #15  
Old 06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Sugarkang has said in the past that he's libertarian. You *assume* that anyone who doesn't think this is a moral problem must be a liberal. I think it's a moral problem and I am a liberal. Others don't and aren't. Your generalization is just wrong. it is the only proof of itself.
I said that liberals have a hard time making moral judgements about sexuality.
I didn't say that anyone who doesn't think there's a moral problem must be a liberal.

Quote:
As to whether something being politically risk meaning it is wrong, this is simply not the case. (in this case, *i* think it is, but the fact that Weiner knew it was politically risky doesn't mean anything one way or the other about whether he thought it was wrong).
You are entitled to your opinion. However, I still think that if Weiner didn't regard what he did as wrong he wouldn't have behaved as he did.

Quote:
There are a HOST of activities that are currently or recently seen as political liabilities, but have nothing to do with right or wrong: being in an interracial marriage, being Jewish or Muslim, (for men) crying in public, having an outspoken spouse, having a silly haircut, being fat, criticising society's sacred cows, et cetera, ad infinitum
.

I was refering to sexual matters here. I suppose I should have been more specific.

Quote:
if you are really arguing that the popularity of a thing is a reliable indicator of its morality, that's a kind of relativism that (like you did with sex above) is often attributed to godless liberals. But I guess we're all post-modernists now
I'm not arguing that. And I was pretty clear that this is not a matter of popularity. I have said that there is a deep truth that this kind of behavior is simply not tolerated by society. And I doubt it ever will be except in certain subsets of the population.
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  #16  
Old 06-09-2011, 10:37 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I really haven't kept up with sugarkang's comments except his statement that he doesn't lie.
Of course I lie. I was trying to make a point and obviously failed. Sarcasm doesn't translate effectively on the internet, sometimes.
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  #17  
Old 06-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Richard from Amherst Richard from Amherst is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

Quoting Badhat Harry's e.o. wilson quote:

"marxism: wonderful theory, wrong species"
e.o. wilson

I think that this is the "Wrong Species" part real issue here with pol's sexual behavior.

Politicians (regardless of affiliation or ideology) are (like the rest of us) first and foremost human primates and as such are subject to behaviors encoded in their DNA by of evolution .

To wit: male primates try to become leader of their troops and accumulate a group of young females of reproductive age in order to pass on their DNA. One of these females may be the head female (wife) and others are more tenuously part of the pride.

Females are sexual opportunists trying to raise their status by affiliation with powerful males (status, food, protection, power, money) and get powerful DNA in their bloodline to increase their progeny's fitness. All the rest of the behavior devolves from these fundamental facts. Sound familiar?

If we stuck to evaluating male politicians (and ministers for that matter) on the fundamental ground of primate evolution everything else would be far simpler to resolve.

It's when we start involving the artificial concepts of higher morality, religion and law into the mix that things get messy.

Just once I'd like to see a politician say when caught philandering:

"Yup I did it, That is to say I did her, she's Hot, willing and I was horny, So what? I'm seeing her again next chance I get! Deal with it! Next Question!"

I suspect that he would be re-elected in a landslide.

I suspect a similar but female dynamic would also work for prominent women.

I further suspect that the sophisticated females primates who took part in this diabog are to "New York sophisticated" to accept the nasty sticky with DNA biological facts here but I think they are true never-the-less.
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  #18  
Old 06-13-2011, 10:24 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by Richard from Amherst View Post
I further suspect that the sophisticated females primates who took part in this diabog are too "New York sophisticated" to accept the nasty sticky with DNA biological facts here but I think they are true never-the-less.
But surely there is a DNA/Darwinian explanation for "New York sophistication" too? And surely there is a DNA/Darwinian explanation for why some people think that sophisticated New Yorkers are liars?

Just asking.
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  #19  
Old 06-13-2011, 04:40 PM
Richard from Amherst Richard from Amherst is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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But surely there is a DNA/Darwinian explanation for "New York sophistication" too? And surely there is a DNA/Darwinian explanation for why some people think that sophisticated New Yorkers are liars?

Just asking.
Absolutely! Given the highly competitive human environment of NYC New Yorkers are certainly highly selected for their sophistication. How do the lyrics go if "I can make it there I can make it anywhere", that certainly sounds like Darwinian selection to me does it not?

As for New Yorkers being liars I suspect that there is a broader Homo sapiens sapiens natural selection factor for mendacity that is not only confined to cities or NYC. New Yorkers probably just put a finer edge on it.
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:47 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by Richard from Amherst View Post
Absolutely! Given the highly competitive human environment of NYC New Yorkers are certainly highly selected for their sophistication. How do the lyrics go if "I can make it there I can make it anywhere", that certainly sounds like Darwinian selection to me does it not?.
So New Yorkers like to say..... But then how did the trait for sophistication get selected? I mean, what advantage did sophistication confer on all those nasty, filthy, unkempt, naked savages roaming the African Savannah?

Quote:
As for New Yorkers being liars I suspect that there is a broader Homo sapiens sapiens natural selection factor for mendacity that is not only confined to cities or NYC. New Yorkers probably just put a finer edge on it.
I see. No doubt. And how about selection for truth-telling? Is it confined to places like Amherst?
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  #21  
Old 06-13-2011, 06:25 PM
Richard from Amherst Richard from Amherst is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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So New Yorkers like to say..... But then how did the trait for sophistication get selected? I mean, what advantage did sophistication confer on all those nasty, filthy, unkempt, naked savages roaming the African Savannah?
First off I reject your choice of adjectives describing our progenitors out on the African Savannah.

Secondly to answer your question: Presumably a clever turn of the wrist in flint napping or a discerning understanding on what plants are edible and where and when they are obtainable would constitute sophistication and lend the early sophisticate a selective advantage.

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
I see. No doubt. And how about selection for truth-telling? Is it confined to places like Amherst?
Oh hardly! Amherst is a community located within a valley with five institutions of higher education. Both truth telling and mendacity are both highly developed fine art forms here.

By the way in the interest of full disclosure: Through an accident of timing and train travel, I happened to have been born in Manhattan. However as my New England Yankee grandfather liked to say about this accident of birth "Just because the cat had her kittens in the oven don't make them biscuits".
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:35 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by Richard from Amherst View Post
Through an accident of timing and train travel, I happened to have been born in Manhattan. However as my New England Yankee grandfather liked to say about this accident of birth "Just because the cat had her kittens in the oven don't make them biscuits".
That's similar to what Wellington famously (though perhaps apocryphally) said in denying being Irish -- just because a man is born in a stable doesn't make him a horse. (This is referenced in Finnegans Wake, but so is everything.)
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  #23  
Old 06-14-2011, 10:35 AM
Richard from Amherst Richard from Amherst is offline
 
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That's similar to what Wellington famously (though perhaps apocryphally) said in denying being Irish -- just because a man is born in a stable doesn't make him a horse. (This is referenced in Finnegans Wake, but so is everything.)
That's a wonderful quote attributed to Wellington apocryphal or not! I had forgotten it (it's been a long long time since I read "Finnegans Wake" in college literature class.

I suspect that granddad being a Joyce fan may well have known both quotes but found the Vermont Yankee turn of phrase less insulting to his NYC friends while making it clear that he considered my Massachusetts roots unimpaired by an accident of birth in Manhattan. He tried never to offend people unintentionally or unnecessarily.

Mom had taken the train from Massachusetts to NYC to meet Dad's ship which was docking in NYC when her time to deliver me came (labor was no doubt induced by the train trip).
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  #24  
Old 06-14-2011, 11:13 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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First off I reject your choice of adjectives describing our progenitors out on the African Savannah.
I may regret this, but. Huh?
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:27 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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I may regret this, but. Huh?
I had the same reaction. I think, though, he was being ironic. That is, he was saying, somewhat coyly, that the progenitors of New Englanders could not possibly have been those nasty, filthy, unkempt and naked savages roaming the African Savannah.
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  #26  
Old 06-14-2011, 02:37 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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I had the same reaction. I think, though, he was being ironic. That is, he was saying, somewhat coyly, that the progenitors of New Englanders could not possibly have been those nasty, filthy, unkempt and naked savages roaming the African Savannah.
I thought he was, somewhat coyly, denying that our ancestors on the Savannah were necessarily nasty, filthy, or unkempt. (I'd assume he agrees with naked, but who knows.)
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:59 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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I thought he was, somewhat coyly, denying that our ancestors on the Savannah were necessarily nasty, filthy, or unkempt. (I'd assume he agrees with naked, but who knows.)
But clearly they were nasty, filthy and unkempt....and of course naked. Unless you know something about our ancestors that contradicts everything that has been written about them by evolutionary biologists.

I should say that as a reader and semi-follower of Rousseau, I am not altogether convinced that our progenitors were as nasty as depicted in popular Darwinism, but they were probably never quite as good as New Englanders in their heyday.

Last edited by Florian; 06-14-2011 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:02 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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But clearly they were nasty, filthy and unkemp....and of course naked. Unless you know something about our ancestors that contradicts everything that has been written about them by evolutionary biologists.

I should say that as a reader and semi-follower of Rousseau, I am not altogether convinced that our progenitors were as nasty as depicted in popular Darwinism, but they were probably never quite as good as New Englanders in their heyday.
Eh, I thought it was mostly a jokey comment, but depends on what one means by nasty and so on. Chimps enjoy grooming each other, after all.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:10 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
But clearly they were nasty, filthy and unkempt....and of course naked. Unless you know something about our ancestors that contradicts everything that has been written about them by evolutionary biologists.

I should say that as a reader and semi-follower of Rousseau, I am not altogether convinced that our progenitors were as nasty as depicted in popular Darwinism, but they were probably never quite as good as New Englanders in their heyday.
Now that was a nicely executed swipe at today's New Englanders.
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Old 06-15-2011, 02:45 PM
Simon Willard Simon Willard is offline
 
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Now that was a nicely executed swipe at today's New Englanders.
We may be nasty, unkempt and naked, but we deny being filthy.
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  #31  
Old 06-08-2011, 01:43 PM
beren beren is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

I agree this incident is much ado about nothing and Weiner shouldn't have to resign or suffer political damage going forward. But it was funny to see these divbloggers disappointed. Rebecca, especially, seemed to feel especially betrayed because Weiner is someone who fights for positions she favors. As if that makes it all the worse.

And what's with Michelle claiming a former mayor of New York was gay? Even if that is true, the voters didn't know about it when he was running.
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  #32  
Old 06-08-2011, 05:52 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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These women argue that the big tragedy here is how Weiner hurt their beloved liberal Democratic agenda.
I don't believe they suggested that it was a tragedy. (It's not. There is no big tragedy here, so to suggest they failed to identify the correct one is pretty hilarious.)

Instead, they discussed their reactions to the Weiner scandal, presumably because they were asked to (a waste of Rebecca and Michelle, IMO). Their reaction was, among other things, gee, it's a shame, as it reduces the effectiveness of this guy who had been effective at making arguments for positions I agreed with him on.

Seems pretty typical of the reactions of everyone, from those Dems who think he should resign (he's no longer a good spokesman and has hurt that he stands for, so let someone else less embarassing in instead) to those on the right who are enjoying this mainly because they don't like Weiner for unrelated reasons. (Some on the left fall in this camp too.)

Quote:
To have such a limited, narcissistic filter for analyzing current events suggests they are simply partisan shills--rationalized appropriately as doing good--but simple apologists just the same.
You seem to have mixed up narcissistic and partisan (based on your following post too). But in any case, given that the topic of the diavlog was "what do you think of the Weiner scandal," your complaint is odd.
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Old 06-08-2011, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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... they discussed their reactions to the Weiner scandal, presumably because they were asked to (a waste of Rebecca and Michelle, IMO).
Yes, I also think it was a waste, especially Michelle who usually has lots of interesting things to say, at least for those of us who agree with her politically.

This is a topic that has been blown out of proportion. Yes, Weiner was stupid. I'm sure he knows it. The consequences will be whatever others decide that they will be.

The reality is that a brain on sex is not the same as a rational or intelligent brain. The higher the sex load, the lower the ability to use good judgement, prudence or discretion. Some people have a somewhat lower sex drive, or a higher ability to suppress, or they're lucky and haven't been caught. It is all within the boundaries of normal human behavior. "Normal" doesn't make it good or desirable or judicious, it just tells us that no one is above the laws of nature which include our sexual drives.

We should expect adults and mostly public figures to keep their impulses within legal and moral bounds. But moral bounds change. What could have been scandalous in the past may no longer be.

The easy access to people's private information and private lives through a new media that allows intrusions will reveal aspects of everybody's lives that were kept behind closed doors before. Our bedroom and bathroom lives, so to speak, can be made public anytime. It will be interesting to see whether we become a repressed society, fearful of engaging in any possibly embarrassing or objectionable behavior, or whether repeated exposures of multiple people will make us face the fact of who we are and what we do.

I understand why Rebecca said that she doesn't think that Weiner's behavior should be seriously penalized while at the same time, she wouldn't accept this kind of behavior from her husband. Lots of people would immediately understand what she means and agree. However, I would encourage her to reflect about why that is and to look more deeply into all the reasons, emotional and cognitive that lead her to think that the dichotomy is reasonable. I'm not implying that she would come out of the reflection with the opposite idea, but she may be able to find interesting inconsistencies along the way.

Michelle said that there are aspects of men's psyche that are surprising to her. I have to wonder whether both diavloggers have lived in somewhat isolated or truly conservative environment. I don't think that any of the mentioned behaviors are surprising. Many people suppress their desires and curiosity, but others don't. Opportunity and circumstances can lead to the most obscure corners of the mind. All we can hope for is that there is some restraint and filtering out of respect and consideration for those who could be hurt by unbound release of sexual impulses.

Interesting topic if one really digs into it, but the prompt for it, the Weiner case, has no particular substance. No pun intended. Seriously.
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  #34  
Old 06-09-2011, 01:20 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

Good post.

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I understand why Rebecca said that she doesn't think that Weiner's behavior should be seriously penalized while at the same time, she wouldn't accept this kind of behavior from her husband.
I also found this understandable and interesting in the lengths both Michelle and Rebecca went to emphasize that THEY would never tolerate such behavior in their relationships. Their POV makes sense, but it also highlights just how humiliating these escapades are for the "good wives" who either stand by their man or don't. It's a lose-lose for the women who get punked by the man in the supposedly monogamous relationship, while feminist allies distance themselves from the hapless punkee. Also disturbing is the fact that the alpha male often recovers splendidly: Spitzer, Clinton, Schwarzenegger, Tiger, Kobe.

Also, isn't it a kind of setback for feminism to buy into the stereotypes of insatiable male pig on the perpetual prowl while faithful oblivious Madonna is knitting baby booties or scheduling Hillary Clinton's pedicure appointment?

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Michelle said that there are aspects of men's psyche that are surprising to her. I have to wonder whether both diavloggers have lived in somewhat isolated or truly conservative environment.
Yes, I find nothing at all mysterious about Weiner's behavior. Or Clinton's. Or Edwards. Or Larry Craig. Or Gov. Sanford. Or Schwarzenegger's.
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  #35  
Old 06-09-2011, 07:13 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Yes, I find nothing at all mysterious about Weiner's behavior. Or Clinton's. Or Edwards. Or Larry Craig. Or Gov. Sanford. Or Schwarzenegger's.
Meh. It's mysterious if one assumes they actually cared about their wives.
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Old 06-09-2011, 09:00 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Good post.
Thanks, hermano.

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I also found this understandable and interesting in the lengths both Michelle and Rebecca went to emphasize that THEY would never tolerate such behavior in their relationships.
Yes, the insistence on that point was the most meaningful part. I wonder if they would want to comment on that.


Quote:
Their POV makes sense, but it also highlights just how humiliating these escapades are for the "good wives" who either stand by their man or don't. It's a lose-lose for the women who get punked by the man in the supposedly monogamous relationship, while feminist allies distance themselves from the hapless punkee.
The humiliation comes from holding the definition of their relationship above its reality. If the woman will only be comfortable in a relationship that's completely monogamous and is willing to give it up if monogamy is broken, then the result would be separation. But sometimes women may want to stay in the relationship for a variety of reasons. How many women are willing to say that they don't know what they would do if their husband cheated? That's why I found Michelle and Rebecca's certainty so puzzling. How can they be so sure that they wouldn't accept it? What makes it so destructive to their relationships?

I'm not saying they should think differently or that the end result should be different, but rather that, I don't think I would express the same degree of certainty. Relationships are a lot more complicated than that. Perhaps because of my career, I have come to understand how these situations play out at the end.

Quote:
Also disturbing is the fact that the alpha male often recovers splendidly: Spitzer, Clinton, Schwarzenegger, Tiger, Kobe.
Nothing new there. That's the way it is. I will only hope that when we start to see important women doing the same, they will also be able to get a pass. Our culture is changing. If those are the new rules, well, we'll all adjust.

Quote:
Also, isn't it a kind of setback for feminism to buy into the stereotypes of insatiable male pig on the perpetual prowl while faithful oblivious Madonna is knitting baby booties or scheduling Hillary Clinton's pedicure appointment?
No, not really, at least from my perspective. From my perspective the problem would be that women continue to buy into any stereotypes, the old or the new. Each relationship is different. In the context of that relationship, the circumstances that lead to a man (or a woman) cheating or engaging in this online interactions, are unique. The couple needs to decide how to proceed according to their circumstances and not following some external dictum. The main tenet in feminism would be that the woman is free to decide what she wants to do about it. If she decides that she wants to stay home knitting baby booties, she should. Who is to say that's wrong?

As to the stereotype of insatiable male pig, well, it's just a stereotype. Some men are like that, and many aren't. Sometimes they hide it to their girlfriends and wives and sometimes it's pretty obvious. I think the problem is that people take it for granted that marriage will automatically involve monogamy, as if that's the default. But, it looks like reality tells us it isn't.

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Some researchers say there's a 50–50 chance today that one partner will have an affair during a marriage including non-physical relationships.[1] It is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage
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Yes, I find nothing at all mysterious about Weiner's behavior. Or Clinton's. Or Edwards. Or Larry Craig. Or Gov. Sanford. Or Schwarzenegger's.
True. We wouldn't want to "normalize" their behavior, but mysterious? No, not at all.
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  #37  
Old 06-09-2011, 04:14 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

The part that speaks poorly of the voyeuristic, hyoocritical and judgmental culture is that there's virtually no concern for the psychological health of the parties involved. Demonizing Weiner, who has committed no crime, is insane from a therapeutic point of view. A "kinder, gentler" culture would get that.
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  #38  
Old 06-09-2011, 05:14 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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The part that speaks poorly of the voyeuristic, hyoocritical and judgmental culture is that there's virtually no concern for the psychological health of the parties involved. Demonizing Weiner, who has committed no crime, is insane from a therapeutic point of view. A "kinder, gentler" culture would get that.
But, the demonizing the demonizers would surely also represent a lack of concern for their psychological health, n'est-pas?
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Old 06-09-2011, 11:03 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: It's all about the team

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The reality is that a brain on sex is not the same as a rational or intelligent brain. The higher the sex load, the lower the ability to use good judgement, prudence or discretion. Some people have a somewhat lower sex drive, or a higher ability to suppress, or they're lucky and haven't been caught. It is all within the boundaries of normal human behavior. "Normal" doesn't make it good or desirable or judicious, it just tells us that no one is above the laws of nature which include our sexual drives.
But we also have to account for the brain structures that act as a "check" on those desires. I completely agree with you up to a point. But absent some serious mental health issues where the brain is rendered almost literally out of control (i.e. what I imagine is the case with pedophiles), there would seem to need to be some normative standard for self-control. Most of us indeed have a good grasp on our baser instincts, and witnessing someone like a DSK or Weiner (not that the two acts are at all equivalent, but they do seem to represent pretty serious failures of self-regulation) calls into question the degree to which they have lost control of their sexual desires.

Now, that said, I do think that Weiner's actions were benign to the public realm, and no cause for some sort of public "holier than thou" scrutiny. I suppose I'm merely trying to understand why someone would do something that seems on its face to be beyond the norm, at least in that he was a public official and did not have control enough over his sexual desires to refrain from doing what he did.
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Old 06-09-2011, 12:54 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Interesting topic if one really digs into it, but the prompt for it, the Weiner case, has no particular substance. No pun intended. Seriously.
Yeah, I agree. There are a number of interesting directions one could go in the discussion of the issues you raise. Too bad bloggingheads didn't think to consider these.
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