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  #1  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:54 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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  #2  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:46 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Hey ... preach it if you feel so inclined!
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  #3  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:58 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

This first segment is going to be very distressing for certain libs, BJ.
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  #4  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:42 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Correction Glenn, the Sherrod story did not happen on Fox until the White House fired her. In fact, Beck defended her from the first.
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  #5  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:31 PM
messwithtexas messwithtexas is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Correction Glenn, the Sherrod story did not happen on Fox until the White House fired her. In fact, Beck defended her from the first.
My understanding is Fox had already posted links to the Sherrod story at Breitbart's site and taped shows for primetime about Sherrod before she was fired. Beck defended her in a way, but also went on to imply that she is a Maoist.
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  #6  
Old 08-03-2010, 10:57 AM
rubbernecking rubbernecking is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

I was puzzled when I saw Fox's involvement mischaracterized in the comments. I was sure someone would challenge it. You let me down guys.

Mediamatters' research seems to be accurate and thorough. Here are details on Fox's despicable involvement: http://mediamatters.org/research/201007220004
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  #7  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:41 PM
chamblee54 chamblee54 is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

At 15:40, Glenn says a mouthful.
The best thing about this diavlog was the fact that one man talked, and the other listened. If this "dialog of teaching moments about skin color and hair styles" is going to be more than damaging noise, there needs to be a little bit less talk and a whole lot more listening.
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  #8  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:57 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quoting Mess:
My understanding is Fox had already posted links to the Sherrod story at Breitbart's site and taped shows for primetime about Sherrod before she was fired. Beck defended her . . .

We agree! Fox did not broadcast anything until after she was fired, and Beck defended her. FYI: "Posting links" is a perfectly normal and defensible activity for a news organization.
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  #9  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:07 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Quoting Mess:
My understanding is Fox had already posted links to the Sherrod story at Breitbart's site and taped shows for primetime about Sherrod before she was fired. Beck defended her . . .

We agree! Fox did not broadcast anything until after she was fired, and Beck defended her. FYI: "Posting links" is a perfectly normal and defensible activity for a news organization.
Fox News may not have said anything about Sherrod on their cable news network before Sherrod was fired, although they obviously would have, had Sherrod delayed her resignation by a few more hours -- as you OBVIOUSLY are well aware.

But Fox News did start pimping Breitbart's lies before Sherrod was fired on:

— Their web site
— Their Twitter page
— Their Facebook page

And they spent the next several days either spreading Breitbart's lies or formulating their own attacks on Sherrod.

It's a strange (and obviously disingenuous) defense of Fox News to say they didn't do something before Sherrod was fired that they did do after she was fired. No one is falling for it.
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  #10  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:21 PM
messwithtexas messwithtexas is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Quoting Mess:
My understanding is Fox had already posted links to the Sherrod story at Breitbart's site and taped shows for primetime about Sherrod before she was fired. Beck defended her . . .

We agree! Fox did not broadcast anything until after she was fired, and Beck defended her. FYI: "Posting links" is a perfectly normal and defensible activity for a news organization.
You Breitbarted me!!! The end of my quote is deliberately out of context.

I don't agree with you because I think you are wrong to call for Loury to correct himself. He said, "FoxNews ran with the story". That is empirically correct, both before and after the firing. Is there something I'm missing? Did he ever mention it being "broadcast" or is that a distinction you are creating to better defend FoxNews?

This is so mundane. It's obvious the right wing media, FoxNews included, played a role in this firing regardless of whether the administration acted too quickly (which I think they did). FoxNews is cynically trying to evade any responsibility for covering a slanderous, doctored video by splitting hairs about the method in which it was covered.
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  #11  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:03 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by messwithtexas View Post

This is so mundane. It's obvious the right wing media, FoxNews included, played a role in this firing regardless of whether the administration acted too quickly (which I think they did). FoxNews is cynically trying to evade any responsibility for covering a slanderous, doctored video by splitting hairs about the method in which it was covered.
Is it correct to say that an entity has a responsibility if another entity is fearful of the first entity's reaction and because of that does something in reaction to the fear of that reaction?

If so, you are correct that Fox played a role in the firing. Personally I think that's a hell of a stretch.
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  #12  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:33 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default What is a liberal arts education for?

Glen mentioned that liberal arts colleges used to be where future ministers were trained. The ideal of a liberal arts education then morphed into a study of the history, literature, and philosophy of Western Civilization from a secular yet elitist point of view (which is when I went to college) and today, apparently, is focused on the development of "critical thinking skills" and applying them to the short-comings of Western civilization, with a particular emphasis on issues of race and ethnicity. But then they note that the canons of political correctness seem to be passing and see that as generally a good thing.

In that spirit, and at the risk of controversy, let me suggest that these colleges should next focus on the history of civilization in general and on the human exploitation upon which all all (pre-modern) civilization was based. This was not just a Western thing. Before modern times there was scarcely a man in the world who was not either exploiting or being exploited and in most cases both (women and children excepted for the most part). This was the human condition. It held true for all groups, irrespective of race, once the hunter/gatherer stage had been passed..

Take the Holocaust as an example. There is a natural tendency to view the Holocaust as a uniquely evil human event. But the fact is -- and this can be documented -- there was not a single crime or human outrage committed against the Jews in the course of World War Two that had not been committed a thousand times over against other innocent human beings in countless societies around the world since history began. In other words the Holocaust, so far from being unique historical event was in many ways an emblematic one -- all the more reason it should never be forgotten.

Once we grasp that there are no innocent lineages in this world, but also none that haven't been brutally victimized at one point or another -- then, and only then, I think, will we build a society that transcends ethnicity and race.

It also might not be a bad idea to have a new class of educated "clerics" in America to teach these lessons to the American people. Then we might realize that our capital wealth is nothing but the accumulated crime and sacrifice of centuries, plus interest, and that the wealthy only hold it in trust so that all classes and races can live off its fruits.

Last edited by BornAgainDemocrat; 08-02-2010 at 10:46 PM..
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  #13  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:52 PM
Simon Willard Simon Willard is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat View Post
... The ideal of a liberal arts education then morphed into a study of the history, literature, and philosophy of Western Civilization from a secular yet elitist point of view (which is when I went to college) and today, apparently, is focused on the development of "critical thinking skills" and applying them to the short-comings of Western civilization, with a particular emphasis on issues of race and ethnicity....
"Liberal Arts" includes mathematics and includes science. Always did. People who study science are a little more immune to propaganda and the distortions of thinking that you are concerned about.

Perhaps people who claim to be liberal arts majors should be queried about their exposure to science.

Last edited by Simon Willard; 08-02-2010 at 06:56 PM..
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  #14  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:03 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Willard View Post

Perhaps people who claim to be liberal arts majors should be queried about their exposure to science.
I went to a liberal arts school that has very traditional curriculum -- one of the most traditional in the country. Requirements for graduation include a year long Humanities (classics) freshmen course, a senior thesis complete with an oral defense, and yes, even for a history major like me, a year of science. (not rocks for jocks either - its the same science that science majors take.) I took chemistry, fwiw.

Great diavlog, btw. I like conversations about conversations (about conversations?) about race. Especially when conducted by people as acute as Glenn and John.

Last edited by nikkibong; 08-02-2010 at 07:11 PM..
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  #15  
Old 08-02-2010, 10:32 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Well, nikibong! I went to Reed too -- except when I was there (class of 64) they required two years of humanities, which was a double course and so roughly half of the freshman and sophomore curriculum. We read several hundred pages a week, all primary sources. About ten years ago I sat in on a graduate seminar at the Union Theological Seminary in NYC for six weeks while getting radiation treatments; it was on early Church history and they were reading two or three pages a week, out of an anthology.
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  #16  
Old 08-02-2010, 10:44 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat View Post
Well, nikibong! I went to Reed too -- except when I was there (class of 64) they required two years of humanities, which was a double course and so roughly half of the freshman and sophomore curriculum. We read several hundred pages a week, all primary sources.
how cool! you're not steve jobs -- but i'm still glad to make your acquaintance.

fyi, hum 110 still includes hundreds of pages of reading a week - though it's now supplemented with (a bit) of subsidiary critical work. but yes, we got reams of homer, herodotus, thucydides (my favorite), and the rest of them.

hum 210 (early modern humanities, dante to voltaire), and hum 220 (modern humanities, voltaire to the primo levi) are offered, but not mandatory. i took both of them, so i got three years of humanities. those were probably my favorite classes i had at reed.

i'd say your worries about the "death of the liberal arts" curriculum do not apply to reed. in many ways, its a stodgy old holdout - like glenn and john. that's to reed's credit, in my opinion.
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  #17  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:21 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat View Post
About ten years ago I sat in on a graduate seminar at the Union Theological Seminary in NYC for six weeks while getting radiation treatments; it was on early Church history and they were reading two or three pages a week, out of an anthology.
Obviously I can't speak to your experience here, but I just graduated from a Liberal Arts college myself, and several hundred pages a week was definitely the norm. In fact, several hundred pages a week would only account for a single class in many cases. If you want, I can dig up the reading list for my seminar class. So that's one data point against your thesis at least.
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  #18  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:50 AM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

I am glad to hear it!
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  #19  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:54 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Well that's good, but I think that at least anecdotal evidence from friends at other colleges undercuts your point pretty badly. I went to a selective school with an above-average workload, but it's not like my colleagues at other schools were doing anything like a 2-3 page a week workload. This isn't to say that higher education hasn't changed, and that a great books-heavy humanities class isn't much harder to find than it was even 30 years ago, but they're not quite handing out degrees like hot cakes either.
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  #20  
Old 08-05-2010, 03:16 AM
PreppyMcPrepperson PreppyMcPrepperson is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Obviously I can't speak to your experience here, but I just graduated from a Liberal Arts college myself, and several hundred pages a week was definitely the norm. In fact, several hundred pages a week would only account for a single class in many cases. If you want, I can dig up the reading list for my seminar class. So that's one data point against your thesis at least.
To join the recent grads discussion here, I went to college at a school--Brown--notorious for having minimal requirements: take, and pass, at least 30 classes over 8 semesters. Get grades, or don't, your call. Take 10 of your 32 classes in your major of choice. Make up a major if you want. Meet the department's--or your advisor's--internal requirements for the major. Get degree. Go home. No GPAs, no 'summa cum laudes,' though there is a generic 'Honors' roll for people who write theses.

As structured, the curriculum gives science kids the opportunity to avoid reading novels and English majors the opportunity to stay out of lab. But MOST Brunonians are really interdisciplinary in their interests and take classes all over the place, switch their majors several times and often experiment with making one up.

I was somewhat the exception to the rule: I took classes in a lot of departments, but they were all fields I considered as majors at one point or another. As a History and Comparative Literature student (eventually), I did manage to get my quantitative skills through a lot of economics (hi Prof. Loury!) and some political science.

While, yes, there are some people who got really silo'ed, the thing we got out of taking that risk was that no one took classes because they 'had' to, to fill a requirement slot, and everyone wanted to succeed because the subject mattered to them, not because there was a 4.0 at the end of the road. And that kind of non-competitive drive and investment in work is one of my favorite things about Brown. I'll be a lifelong learner because of that place.

I suppose that I would be more concerned about the point raised in this thread if I had not gone to a private high school where we spent junior and senior years reading everyone from Homer down to Rawles in the original, and conducting science research in the labs of NYC's leading hospitals. Obviously, not everyone is going to get a high school like this, and boy, were there awkward private school social dynamics there that I'd prefer to forget. But I DO think that the basics of a broad liberal arts and sciences curriculum--great books, quantitative thinking skills, etc.--are something you CAN teach kids at a younger age, enabling them more freedom to specialize and explore on their own terms in college.

That's the same lesson I've absorbed--incidentally--during my two brief stints as an exchange student in the UK, as a high-schooler in the spring of 2003 and then again as a university student in 2006-2007.

Added: As for how much reading we had, when I did the 'great books' stuff in high school, it was 200 pages a week, per course. in college, for an average humanities or social science course, it was 1-2 books, plus a few scholarly papers, a week. when I was in the UK as a university student, it was more like 6 books and a research paper a week per course, but I was taking only two courses at a time.

Last edited by PreppyMcPrepperson; 08-05-2010 at 03:29 AM..
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  #21  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:27 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post

Great diavlog, btw. I like conversations about conversations (about conversations?) about race. Especially when conducted by people as acute as Glenn and John.
I've never seen acute used this way as in acute people. Acute thinkers, yes...acute people, huh?

You Portland writers are always pushing the limits.
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2010, 02:44 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
Great diavlog, btw. I like conversations about conversations (about conversations?) about race. Especially when conducted by people as acute as Glenn and John.
I agree. Wish the discussion here was more about the diavlog, but I'm feeling too lazy to take the lead.
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  #23  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:03 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

I agree. Though when it comes to how much math and science should the average undergraduate learn, that is a trickier question. I would say at least physics for poets, including cosmology. Drop calculus for elementary statistics up to and including correlation coefficients (otherwise you can't evaluate what is reported in the papers). Basic chemistry and biology too, of course, including population genetics and the theories of natural and sexual selection. Three or four courses in all.

Last edited by BornAgainDemocrat; 08-02-2010 at 07:50 PM..
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  #24  
Old 08-05-2010, 03:38 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

I believe it wasn't until the early to mid 20th century that the mathematics and science portions of a liberal arts degree consisted of more then geometry and logic.
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  #25  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:13 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat View Post
In that spirit, and at the risk of controversy, let me suggest that these colleges should next focus on the history of civilization in general and on the human exploitation upon which all all (pre-modern) civilization was based.
Don't worry they cover this, too. Suffice it to say Western man is evil and everything he does destroys the pristine environment into which he was born.


Quote:
Take the Holocaust as an example. There is a natural tendency to view the Holocaust as a uniquely evil human event. But the fact is -- and this can be documented -- there was not a single crime or human outrage committed against the Jews in the course of World War Two that had not been committed a thousand times over against other innocent human beings in countless societies around the world since history began. In other words the Holocaust, so far from being unique historical event was in many ways an emblematic one -- all the more reason it should never be forgotten.
agreed

Quote:
Once we grasp that there are no innocent lineages in this world, but also none that haven't been brutally victimized at one point or another -- then, and only then, I think, will we build a society that transcends ethnicity and race.
Don't hold your breath. I think most intelligent humans know all about the brutality of man. That doesn't mean there is much to be done about it besides incrementally trying to make things better. Big projects like building societies transcending our nature don't work. And race and ethnicity will vanish one day if the climate doesn't get us first.

Quote:
It also might not be a bad idea to have a new class of educated "clerics" in America to teach these lessons to the American people. Then we might realize that our capital wealth is nothing but the accumulated crime and sacrifice of centuries, plus interest, and that the wealthy only hold it in trust so that all classes and races can live off its fruits.
Oh brother, such a dark view of the enormous accomplishments of so many people. I'd rather some 'cleric' teach about that.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:11 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Don't worry they cover this, too. Suffice it to say Western man is evil and everything he does destroys the pristine environment into which he was born.
personal experience? which college/classes?
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  #27  
Old 08-04-2010, 03:13 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Oh brother, such a dark view of the enormous accomplishments of so many people. I'd rather some 'cleric' teach about that.
One of my points -- poorly made I must admit -- is that a terrible human price was paid to build the modern world, and that we should value it more highly for that very reason. Should we throw it all away -- by consuming our capital, for instance, the way Argentina did in the early 20th century -- then that would be tragic because we would have to start all over again at the bottom of the pit. Our enormous accomplishment -- or, rather, the enormous accomplishment of our ancestors -- was taking all that evil and, instead of wasting it on aristocratic display as other civilizations did in the past, turning it into something good. Redeeming the time, in the words of St. Paul.

OTH, if liberal democracy were a trivial accomplishment then no big deal. The problem is our children today take everything for granted because they don't know any better. That is our fault. "Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it." I forget who first said that.

Last edited by BornAgainDemocrat; 08-04-2010 at 03:40 PM..
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  #28  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:49 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quoting mess:
I don't agree with you because I think you are wrong to call for Loury to correct himself. He said, "FoxNews ran with the story". That is empirically correct, both before and after the firing. Is there something I'm missing?

You are missing the fact that Fox did not run with the story until after Sherrod was fired. White House publicly fires someone like Sherrod in a situation like this and it's not a story? Come on.

After this vlog, I'm not sure what to expect from these two, but I can't wait. Next time they may come out and apologize to Palin, Beck, O'Reilly and all the others. They (implicitly) left huge monster-truck tire tracks up and down the backs of Skip Gates, Spike Lee, Michelle Goldberg, Cornell West, Michell Obama and half the nutbar posters on this site. I take my hat off. Maybe there is hope.

Last edited by Salt; 08-02-2010 at 04:54 PM..
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:11 PM
Big_Time_Gumshoe Big_Time_Gumshoe is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Fox was flogging this video on both their main site and the accompanying Tea Party jamboree "Fox Nation" prior to the resignation.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201007220004

Not to mention the endless analysis in the days following of how Sherrod's speech was "Exhibit A" in "what racism looks like.

As for this diavlog I thought it was excellent, but hardly unusual subject matter for these two. It's not like Glenn or John haven't been making these arguments or ones like these for years. Did you know Glenn served in the Reagan administration? It's true!

But I suppose I should have put two and two together and realized that the ultimate conservative fantasy would be mowing down left-wingers in a monster-truck, "nutbar" indeed.
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  #30  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:04 PM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default McWhorter Fesses Up

We've been suspecting this for quite awhile now.
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  #31  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:09 PM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default Loury Goes Massively Post-Racial

Betcha nine bucks they won't post this on the front page.
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  #32  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:17 PM
sapeye sapeye is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

PC language can be a pain in the butt. Here in Canada, calling someone an Indian is not quite, but nearly, as insulting as using the N word (another silly euphemism. Here, natives are Native Americans, or First Nations, or Indigenous People. But in the US everyone, including natives, uses the term Indian. And if you refer to a US Indian as a First Nations Person, he or she might well say, "Hey, I don't live in Canada, I'm an Indian." Of course indigenous people here might well refer to themselves as Indians.

In the meantime, actual discrimination against natives is rampant: low levels of education, high levels of unemployment, homelessness, drug and alcohol abuse, and incarceration.

Twenty years ago I had my foot ripped off in a motorcycle crash. I became a "disabled person". Even though I'm still more physically active than most "able bodied" people, I'm officially disabled...even when sitting here typing at my computer. When called disabled, I refuse the term and, instead, call myself a cripple. When someone assigns me (or anyone else) a global label, it's discrimination, and given that, I prefer to have the process right out there in plain view.
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  #33  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:33 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Originally Posted by sapeye View Post
In the meantime, actual discrimination against natives is rampant: low levels of education, high levels of unemployment, homelessness, drug and alcohol abuse, and incarceration.
Just curious but does the malaise you describe always denote discrimination? Can't people accomplish destroying their lives without it?
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  #34  
Old 08-13-2010, 02:18 AM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Just curious but does the malaise you describe always denote discrimination? Can't people accomplish destroying their lives without it?
I think John answers that question, with a minor caveat of sorts, in a book review he wrote for The New Republic titled "What Hope?"

Quote:
This book is depressing because it is so persuasive. There is a school of thought in America which argues that the government must be the main force that provides help to the black community. This shibboleth is predicated upon another one: that such government efforts will make a serious difference in disparities between blacks and whites. Amy Wax not only argues that such efforts have failed, she also suggests that such efforts cannot bring equality, and therefore must be abandoned. Wax identifies the illusion that mars American thinking on this subject as the myth of reverse causation—that if racism was the cause of a problem, then eliminating racism will solve it. If only this were true. But it isn’t true: racism can set in motion cultural patterns that take on a life of their own.
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  #35  
Old 08-02-2010, 09:22 PM
Roland Roland is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Glenn Loury's statement that our colleges need to stop pushing this "security blanket of identity reinforcement" to black students reminded me of the opinion editorial I wrote for Wayne State University's South End, Identity Crisis - Poor Education of Blacks to Blame. While I cautiously agree with Loury on his point, I say that the identity reinforcement that is given to black students is pre-planned, and is of a stereotypical flavor. In my piece, the argument was that - black students do not have an identity at all, thus, they are vulnerable to any identity, which oftentimes work against them.

Further, one of the major flaws I see with our higher education system is that it fails tremendously in the successful use of its talents, resources, and other tools to finally and forever resolve the taints of racial disparities, and its subsequent negative and horrific realities. John and Glenn sound good, and make great points, but, like much of academia, they do very little with their access to the towers of power to make life better for those who live beneath them.

Finally, our great university research centers, and science and math departments have made our lives easier by way of creative comforts, and may continue by even fixing global warming (one day). But these feats drop in comparison and by leaps when huge walls of people continue to fall way below what they could be.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:35 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Originally Posted by Roland View Post
Further, one of the major flaws I see with our higher education system is that it fails tremendously in the successful use of its talents, resources, and other tools to finally and forever resolve the taints of racial disparities, and its subsequent negative and horrific realities. John and Glenn sound good, and make great points, but, like much of academia, they do very little with their access to the towers of power to make life better for those who live beneath them.

Finally, our great university research centers, and science and math departments have made our lives easier by way of creative comforts, and may continue by even fixing global warming (one day). But these feats drop in comparison and by leaps when huge walls of people continue to fall way below what they could be.
Hi, Roland. Your article sounds interesting. I'm curious what you are thinking about in terms of what more universities could do. I'm not disagreeing -- I just would like to have a better sense of what you are talking about.

One of the things John referenced is that "race work" should include a greater focus on helping non college bound students get useful job training. I'm with him in principle, but don't know that I'd call that race work, as I'm not sure why it would be helpful to phrase something like that, which seems to be about class and education generally, not race, a race issue. (For the same reason I have problems with a lot of the issues that get lumped as feminist or about women's issues.) Anyway, I mention John's point here because I tend to agree with the implicit point that too much of the conversation seems to focus on universities (and, especially, elite universities) when that seems reasonably insignificant, really. But it's possible I'm missing some significance.

Anyway, welcome.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:35 PM
listener listener is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Thanks to John and Glenn for another thoughtful and insightful discussion.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:03 AM
sapeye sapeye is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Apparently John doesn't completely agree with Maureen Dowd:
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/298...0:17&out=40:26

James Clyburn also seems to leave a bad taste in his mouth; either that or the memory of the previous Blogging Heads continues to trouble him.
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/298...0:30&out=41:10
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:37 AM
listener listener is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Apparently John doesn't completely agree with Maureen Dowd:
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/298...0:17&out=40:26
Yes, that was quite an 'eye-popping' moment there.
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:42 PM
sapeye sapeye is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Yes, that was quite an 'eye-popping' moment there.
Reminded me of the Hair on Fire expression of Jane Hamsher when listening to, hmmm, I can't remember to whom. It was a while ago now.
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