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  #1  
Old 12-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Shattered Idealism Edition

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  #2  
Old 12-09-2008, 04:35 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Location: Newbridge, NJ
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Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Hey, Ezra's using an iPhone mic.
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2008, 04:53 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Ezra, I agree with your disdain for the Clinton Appointment as a matter of principle, but the hard truth was, Obama needed to differentiate between himself and Hillary, and as you and several other bloggers pointed out, there wasn't a whole lot of daylight between many of their views. And in addition to contrasting himself from Hillary on SOME issue, he also had to pick one that would help his chances to win not only the primary but the general as well. We Democrats forever have been wishing for a candidate who "knew how to win", and now that we've got one, we are complaining that he did, you know, some of the things he needed to do to win. I agree, that there are many other people I would rather have seen Obama pick for SOS, but then again, Hillary and her supporters probably played a significant role in the great victory, and if there was a quid pro quo for Hillary after the primaries, oh well, this is politics. Wasn't there some old expression about "bedfellows" that I heard once upon a time.
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  #4  
Old 12-09-2008, 04:57 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Take that, liberal daughter!!

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/164...8:59&out=19:17
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  #5  
Old 12-09-2008, 05:28 PM
BeachFrontView BeachFrontView is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 94
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

I hate Hillary Clinton as much as the next guy but her choice as Sec of State was a handout to the primary voters. Dont forget the vote was basically 50.1% v 49.9%. IMO the democrats were going to win this year no matter who got the nomination.

Those regular folks who don't watch Bloggingheads.tv, their approval ratings matter too and Obama wants them to think that their voice(unfortunately through Hillary) is being heard so to speak in the white house.

Besides Hillary is gonna spend half of the next four years in China lobbying their govt bank for loans.


. . . . And Obama can fire her
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  #6  
Old 12-09-2008, 06:47 PM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 592
Default Just Get Over It. (The Clintonistas did...)

Gad, the HRC hatred in these two is just so pathetic.

Take a cue from Obama: Chill.

EW

PS: That said, I enjoyed both of them and would love to have them both back.
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  #7  
Old 12-09-2008, 07:10 PM
Running Dog Running Dog is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 11
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Ezra and many of his young friends have changed their tune since Obama has picked his Cabinet. The 'left' blogosphere was rabid on the subject of Hillary Clinton's corruption and sleaziness.

Now Ezra sounds like a Washington insider; congratulating himself on his political maturity and insight as to how things work in washington.
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  #8  
Old 12-09-2008, 07:27 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Posts: 1,644
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Dog View Post
Ezra and many of his young friends have changed their tune since Obama has picked his Cabinet. The 'left' blogosphere was rabid on the subject of Hillary Clinton's corruption and sleaziness.

Now Ezra sounds like a Washington insider; congratulating himself on his political maturity and insight as to how things work in washington.
wow. That seems to be the opposite of what i heard - which is that the Clinton appointment reeks of cynicism - which is the opposite of the whole theme of Obama's campaign.

I think he even stated that HRC is the one appointment he really didn't like...
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  #9  
Old 12-09-2008, 07:36 PM
hw hw is offline
 
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Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Ezra shows the unfortunate symptom of reading words he's never heard aloud:
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/164...4:44&out=44:51

What's the public trow :P? Hmm, maybe trough has become a rather obsolete word in today's world of mechanized low-labor high-productivity agriculture. Still, it doesn't look good when you hold forth on agricultural policy and you don't even know how to say trough.
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  #10  
Old 12-09-2008, 08:05 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

sounds like things are gettin dirty:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/164...6:04&out=06:10
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  #11  
Old 12-09-2008, 08:50 PM
ginger baker ginger baker is offline
 
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Posts: 103
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Ha! nice try Ezra. The Dems have nearly 60 senators! and you, like yglesius and the other fake "progressive " posers, are talking "pragmatism," with war-hawks by his side even. Good luck chasing down Cokie Roberts...

And Fairbanks, its called an anti-political fantasy....not that complicated.
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  #12  
Old 12-09-2008, 10:21 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 940
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

People who are dismissive of Caroline Kennedy should check this out:

http://tinyurl.com/579jy6

(All I really personally know about the author's bona fides is that he was one of the most prescient and accurate commentators during the Democratic primaries.)

I'm not convinced that Klein or Fairbanks have a clue about Caroline Kennedy. They're Beltway journalists - probably better than most - but that's not a compliment, not even close, these days. It's as sure a guarantee that they don't know much about the external world as it gets.
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  #13  
Old 12-09-2008, 10:30 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Posts: 940
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

I also have to say that I'm getting sick of this "disappointed in Obama" meme. It's generated by conservatives who want the world to believe that things are still right in their world, despite the fact that it's crashed. Could we please have Robert Kuttner, who has actually thought about these questions in the course of writing a recent book. I could care less what bloggers or random journalists from, of all mags, The New Republic have rattling in their brains. Ezra made the point that idiots are trying to exploit this meme - so why do we have Bloggingheads attempting to peddle this dismal crap ? Get real. I'm terribly disappointed - angry even - with the absolute drek Bloggingheads has tried to feed it's viewers in the wake of the election. Talk about "shattered idealism." I thought this place had some pretense of being a source of serious discourse...
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  #14  
Old 12-09-2008, 10:46 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

I want to temper my sour remarks with the recognition that Ezra makes some excellent points about (a) competence/experience and (b) the fact that guys like Summers are not naifs, but have the benefit of (negative) hindsight on their earlier incarnations. Summers has of late been making the argument that rising income inequality has created a crisis of legitimacy. Had Obama appointed anyone not name Summers who held this view, "progressives" would be celebrating. For myself, my brow hasn't been furrowed for many, many months, since the day I felt certain that Obama had this sucker in his pocket. Too many liberals are, not to put too fine a point on it, a drag. Get happy for a minute, MFs. Where I live most of the kids and lots of the old ladies are wearing Obama tee-shirts. I happen to think they're smarter than these kvetchers...
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  #15  
Old 12-09-2008, 11:41 PM
sp3akthetruth sp3akthetruth is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 54
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

I was disappointed with the gossipy nature of this diavlog. Both of these guys are smarter than that, and I'm not sure what brought this out.

I actually find Ezra's blog boring, but I've always enjoyed his gigs on here.

Ezra's point about the experience of Obama's cabinet appointments is important and often overlooked.

Peter Beinart attempts to coopt the argument a bit here. Beinart is mostly on point, but then again he misses out on the intellectualism + experience as opposed to W's anti-illectualism + experience and Clinton's hidden intellectualism + lack of experience.

I look at the Obama administration this way, the best and the brightest of the Clinton administration + the realists from the Republican side + Obama's pragmatism.
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  #16  
Old 12-10-2008, 01:33 AM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by sp3akthetruth View Post

I actually find Ezra's blog boring, but I've always enjoyed his gigs on here.
i don't suppose that has anything to do with the following link, does it?

http://jezebel.com/5093450/the-10-se...ay-men-of-2008
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  #17  
Old 12-10-2008, 01:51 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Location: Heartland Conservative
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Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
i don't suppose that has anything to do with the following link, does it?

http://jezebel.com/5093450/the-10-se...ay-men-of-2008
I was wondering what the heck she was talking about.

Found this disturbing image after following the link:



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  #18  
Old 12-10-2008, 03:12 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Posts: 3,332
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

I used to think Ezra's blog was a bit bland compared to Yglesias or Ackerman etc., but it's really grown on me. There's a "sober-ness" to his writing voice that I think really makes him sound like he knows what he's talking about (like Mark Schmitt.) Sometimes the healthcare discussions get too wonky for me, but I still find myself reading (and passing links along) regularly.

As far as the young lefty bloggers, my recollection is that most of them (at least the ones that I read regularly, MY, EK, TNC, SA) have all emphasized the pragmatism of Obama's appointments from pretty early on. I don't have the urge to pull up all the historical links, but I don't remember them complaining about the appointments, as much as they were reporting/commenting on the complaints of others.
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  #19  
Old 12-10-2008, 10:21 AM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Posts: 344
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

This appointments debate segues so nicely into the Blagojevich indictments.
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  #20  
Old 12-10-2008, 01:09 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

The Clintons are political Rasputins; no matter how many times you try to kill 'em, they keep coming back for more. While I'm impressed with their resilience, I am also disappointed (as a matter of principle) to see HRC headed to the State Department. Considering that she, in the eyes of almost everybody, flubbed the most important Senate vote she ever cast (the Iraq war), this is a true case of failing upward.

Then again, considering the other names that were bandied about for Sec. of State: Bill "I am a personal friend of every horrible dictator in the world" Richardson and Richard "Is it my turn yet??" Holbrooke, I guess we could have done worse.
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  #21  
Old 12-10-2008, 02:09 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 940
Default Re: Shattered Idealism Edition

Mark Schmitt and Bob Kuttner on the Obama election pleeeeeeze....

Also, here's a good Schmitt post-election piece as companion to that link up top.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?...ty_of_patience
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