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  #1  
Old 11-10-2011, 01:42 PM
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Default Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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  #2  
Old 11-10-2011, 03:12 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Love the "Mittens is our Puppet" meme for conservatives

Good diavlog I certainly think republicans will be more interested in Astro-glide if he is boxed in.

What wasn't discussed was the Mittness Protection Plan that Romney has instituted. He doesn't do interviews where there is a chance he would have to actually respond to non-softball questions, just in case he says something that will hurt him in the general election. It's a good idea now but do conservatives really want somebody that can't deal with the press ?
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  #3  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:31 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Love the "Mittens is our Puppet" meme for conservatives

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Originally Posted by thouartgob View Post
It's a good idea now but do conservatives really want somebody that can't deal with the press ?
As long as he beats Obama no one cares.
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  #4  
Old 11-12-2011, 05:45 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Love the "Mittens is our Puppet" meme for conservatives

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
As long as he beats Obama no one cares.
True enough but without solid republican majorities in the house and senate aren't you stuck with limp rag from a conservative stand point? If it's all about the economy there is certainly a good chance that you could have republicans in congress being tossed out for something other than them in 2012. Is his moderate style and overly complexified plans going to drive a anti-anti-incumbent insurgence ? You need big black and white values differences not nuanced differences derived from parsing rhetoric between 2004 and 2007 ( Mitt version X and Mitt version X+1 )
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  #5  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:24 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Love the "Mittens is our Puppet" meme for conservatives

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Originally Posted by thouartgob View Post
What wasn't discussed was the Mittness Protection Plan that Romney has instituted. He doesn't do interviews where there is a chance he would have to actually respond to non-softball questions, just in case he says something that will hurt him in the general election. It's a good idea now but do conservatives really want somebody that can't deal with the press ?
If it's good enough for Obama for the years since he took the national stage, it's good enough for Mitt. Personally I'd prefer a candidate like Chris Christie who calls out the biased msm and is able to deal with hostile lefty reporters doing the DNC's bidding (aka 90% of the press).
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  #6  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:42 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Love the "Mittens is our Puppet" meme for conservatives

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
If it's good enough for Obama for the years since he took the national stage, it's good enough for Mitt. Personally I'd prefer a candidate like Chris Christie who calls out the biased msm and is able to deal with hostile lefty reporters doing the DNC's bidding (aka 90% of the press).
Oh shut up, you don't even vote.
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  #7  
Old 11-11-2011, 11:07 AM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Love the "Mittens is our Puppet" meme for conservatives

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
If it's good enough for Obama for the years since he took the national stage, it's good enough for Mitt. Personally I'd prefer a candidate like Chris Christie who calls out the biased msm and is able to deal with hostile lefty reporters doing the DNC's bidding (aka 90% of the press).
Fox news criticizes Mitt for his ducking his way to the nomination.

Just one followup question in the last debate had Mitt fumbling.

from partisan web page but it has the video:
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato...n-mandates-mak

Quote:
HARWOOD: But, Governor, let me ask you about health care, because Congressman Paul said, put it back to the doctor and the patient. You said a few moments ago that you thought states should have the responsibility for insuring the uninsured. And, of course, in Massachusetts, you enacted an individual mandate and subsidies to have people who didn't have insurance get it. So you think there's a pretty large role for government in this area.

ROMNEY: Well, I think that people -- that people have a responsibility to receive their own care, and the doctor-patient relationship is, of course, where that -- where that exists -- where that exists.

HARWOOD: But the government has the responsibility to force them?

ROMNEY: I --

I didn't know whether Ron Paul was saying we're going to -- he's going to get rid of Medicaid. I would not get rid of Medicaid. It's a health program for the poor. What I said was I would take the Medicaid dollars that are currently spent by the federal government, return them to the states so that states can craft their own programs to care for their own poor, rather than having the federal government mandate a one-size- fits-all plan in the entire -- entire nation. Obamacare is wrong. I'll repeal it. I'll get it done.
Pew study finds press isn't sympathetic at all to Obama:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...w-study-finds/

Sure the nominations is Mitt's to lose and he can turtle-up when it comes to followup questions that mess up his talking points but I have a feeling the general is gonna be a little more tougher. Tough on everybody.
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  #8  
Old 11-11-2011, 08:30 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Love the "Mittens is our Puppet" meme for conservatives

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
If it's good enough for Obama for the years since he took the national stage, it's good enough for Mitt. Personally I'd prefer a candidate like Chris Christie who calls out the biased msm and is able to deal with hostile lefty reporters doing the DNC's bidding (aka 90% of the press).
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  #9  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:37 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

I was looking forward to this diavlog, and I like Dan Foster, despite his politics. I greatly enjoyed, for example, his conversations with Amanda Marcotte. But I couldn't take more than 25 minutes of this one because it turned out to be a non-stop Dan Foster monovlog. I really wasn't in the mood tonight to listen to a conservative go on and on for an hour about the virtues of the far right.

I'm not blaming Dan for this: Benjy just passively sat listening to Dan for most of the 25 minutes I watched. That's not Dan's fault.

Benjy: What the left needs is not more passive liberals to nod along while conservatives spin their narratives. We need people who can push back. I mean, assuming your a liberal, or that you have any interest in pushing back against the dominant far-right narrative. Maybe this is like the Sunday shows on network TV, where they pit ideological conservatives against neutral journalists who refrain from ideological judgments.

Whatever the case, as much as I like both Benjy and Dan, this didn't work as a diavlog for me. Hope others get more out of it.
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  #10  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:13 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Whatever the case, as much as I like both Benjy and Dan, this didn't work as a diavlog for me. Hope others get more out of it.
You'll be delighted to know, I loved it.

Quote:
Benjy: What the left needs is not more passive liberals to nod along while conservatives spin their narratives. We need people who can push back.
I know! the intellectual guiding lights of the movement like Bill Maher, Keith Olbermann, Michael Moore and the ever popular Toure. Geez, you have all kinds of outlets, MSNBC, Comedy Central, HBO and whatever station Olbermann is on these days. Maybe if your ideas were more popular or even coherent more people would be pushing them.
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Last edited by badhatharry; 11-10-2011 at 11:48 PM..
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  #11  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:21 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)



Hey look, two of your favorites together in one!
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  #12  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:28 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post

Hey look wingnut, two of your favorites together in one!
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2011, 11:56 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Amusing. How do you do that? Is it possible to blend more than two faces?

How about FDR, JFK, Carter, Clinton and Obama?
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  #14  
Old 11-11-2011, 12:44 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
I like Dan Foster, despite his politics.
I thought this diavlog was okay, but I'm not a big fan of Dan. The reason was crystalized by one of the exchanges here, when Benjy was talking about the dismissal by various folks on the right of the existence of sexual harassment as a thing and how Bialek's allegations may have countered that reaction some.

Dan, in what I would describe as a typical "I'm a reasonable guy but standing up for the reasonability of the far right who I don't want to piss off even if I don't want to actually adopt their position in this diavlog" pose by some of the Corner types, tried to deal with this in the following way. (1) by distancing himself from the full-scale Rush/John Derbyshire POV by suggesting that they didn't phrase the argument in the best of all possible ways; and (2) by trying to reframe it as some genuine point -- what we need to have is a discussion over whether we should allow people to sue for just being offended, this culture that we should be protected from the smallest offense, blah, blah.

Simultaneously, then, he avoids being pinned down to the ridiculous statements that really were said but kind of defends them anyway by suggesting that they were part of a genuine argument against some -- non-existent, btw -- notion that we should be protected from any offense. That, naturally, has nothing to do with anything except for the made-up by Cain notion that the lawsuits were about him comparing some woman's height to his wife's. It is inconceiveable to me that the NRA or anyone would have paid non-nuisance value settlements for such a ridiculous thing. Yet, as Dan would have it, there's a real concern that we as a society have decided that that would be recoverable, and that's what this conversation is about.

Given Dan's suggestion that there might be a real problem that we decided that women are entitled to recovery for anything that might happen to offend them, it's worth considering the actual requirements of a sexual harassment claim.

First, of course, there's quid pro quo harassment. To prove this, you must show that you suffered a negative result from rejecting a sexual demand. Second, there's hostile work place, which is what most of the claims that people can't tell jokes anymore, can't talk about a woman's height, etc., stem from. This is, of course, a ridiculous distortion. To succeed on a claim, the law requires that one show an atmosphere of harassment or hostility and that the offending behavior must be sufficiently severe or pervasive to alter the victim's employment conditions and create an abusive working environment. This is measured by the reaction of "a reasonable person," not simply the specific plaintiff. In order to sue for the loss of a job based on this, to recover salary after quitting, one must show "constructive discharge," which means "working conditions so intolerable that a reasonable person would have felt compelled to resign."

Moreover, employers can protect themself from a lawsuit by setting up "a readily accessible and effective policy for reporting and resolving complaints." This is what most employers are doing in creating a policy and when giving you a copy of the policy and making employees attend seminars. They also may explain to those who supervise other employees what their duties are if they learn about sexual harassment. But essentially if a company has a policy in place and enforces it, someone cannot recover for sexual harassment without attempting to go through the policy and being able to demonstrate that despite this nothing was done to stop it. The exception would be if it's possible to show that the events were so extreme as to be a constructive discharge, but again that's hard to prove. You also, obviously, have to convince the jury even if the facts alleged and proof are sufficient to get by summary judgment.

Now, do people threaten and even bring lawsuits that they shouldn't win under the law? Sure, about all things. But the idea that our society -- through our law -- defines sexual harassment in the silly kind of way Dan implied was the real issue here is, of course, not true.

Last edited by stephanie; 11-11-2011 at 12:46 PM..
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  #15  
Old 11-11-2011, 02:39 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Benjy: What the left needs is not more passive liberals to nod along while conservatives spin their narratives. We need people who can push back.
I am probably inviting a whole heap of abuse (not from you), but I didn't think it was THAT bad. I would have preferred that benjy be a litle more confrontive early on.

Agree with others' complaints about foster's unspecified complaints about sexual harassment and about how the critique of it just isn't being made articulately enough. Would have also preferred more pushback about it.

But I suspect Benjy didn't see this is part of what they were there to discuss and wanted to get on to the other things on the agenda.

It got a lot better for me about 30 minutes in.
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  #16  
Old 11-11-2011, 02:43 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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I am probably inviting a whole heap of abuse (not from you), but I didn't think it was THAT bad. I would have preferred that benjy be a litle more confrontive early on.
I actually thought Benjy was fine, and am not saying that he should have called Dan on the comment I responded to. I think it was off the topic of what they were trying to discuss.

(I listened to this one, like many others, on my iPod, and when I do I always wonder how much difference the video makes.)
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  #17  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:11 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

Benjy seems to be saying that it's pretty clear that what Bialik described is sexual harassment. I would just ask him to consider if perhaps Ms. Bialik was sending messages that made Cain (if the incident happened) assume his advances would be accepted. It happens.

I don't think Obamacare can be repealed as easily as some say it can be.

About over-reach... I have come to understand this Gingrich statement, "I don't think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable than left-wing social engineering." He was wise to see that big changes need to be made incrementally, so's the peeps don't notice.
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  #18  
Old 11-11-2011, 05:52 AM
tom tom is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Benjy seems to be saying that it's pretty clear that what Bialik described is sexual harassment. I would just ask him to consider if perhaps Ms. Bialik was sending messages that made Cain (if the incident happened) assume his advances would be accepted. It happens.
Having a lot of trouble thinking of a signal that would invite a. a direct reach for a woman's genitals & pushing a woman's head towards one's crotch, with no incremental escalation of physical contact first, and b. the remark "you want a job, right?" in response to a woman's resistance to this behavior. I'm old fashioned that way.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:34 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Having a lot of trouble thinking of a signal that would invite a. a direct reach for a woman's genitals & pushing a woman's head towards one's crotch, with no incremental escalation of physical contact first, and b. the remark "you want a job, right?" in response to a woman's resistance to this behavior. I'm old fashioned that way.
Well, OK. But it's certainly possible that she could have been sending him "I'm available" signals. I hate to think Herman Cain behaved that way, so let's talk hypothetically, 'k?

A certain woman is adrift and looking for work. She is good looking and she knows it. She gets an invitation to go to another city and apply for a job. That's exciting, right? She arrives there and she sees that a suite has been reserved for her and that she is to meet her prospective employer for dinner. Wow!!! I'm special! (by now, I'd be thinking, what's up? but not everyone is as astute as I.) She has several drinks at dinner and some enlivening conversation. She uses what she has in the way of friendliness and outgoingness and maybe even flirts. (you will notice she has chosen to wear a tight fitting and revealing dress). It's late, but her host wants to show her her new office. "Hey, what the heck, this guy seems nice and harmless. Besides I don't want to do anything that would make him think twice about giving me the job!"

A certain executive is very successful and likes women. He has seen a picture of a prospective employee and sees that she has gigantic...dimples and he loves dimples. He decides to really give her the royal treatment, room upgrade, fabulous drinks and dinner. She's fun and she laughs at his jokes. She's definitely interested in him. He gets her away from the restaurant on the off chance that she'd like to make it with him. He's a little drunk and aroused because she's been patting his ego all night long.

Now I agree that the moves are gross and unbelievably insensitive to the way most women want to be treated but he stopped when he was told to and exercised considerable restraint considering the condition he was in.

At what exact moment does this rise to the level of sexual harassment? That's kinda what Dan and Benjy were discussing.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:28 AM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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At what exact moment does this rise to the level of sexual harassment?
How about the moment he shoves her head into his crotch and says "You want the job, don't you"?
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  #21  
Old 11-11-2011, 11:46 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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How about the moment he shoves her head into his crotch and says "You want the job, don't you"?
Yeah. I guess the sex for employment quid pro quo seems normal and appropriate to badhat.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:51 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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How about the moment he shoves her head into his crotch and says "You want the job, don't you"?
But maybe she was sending signals that she really, really wanted the job. You can't dismiss the signals!
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  #23  
Old 11-11-2011, 09:22 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
How about the moment he shoves her head into his crotch and says "You want the job, don't you"?
Well in my scenario and Bialek's, the job being a contingency isn't mentioned until the blow job is refused. So was it the head shove or the intimation that she should follow his direction if she wanted the job? Is it the fact that he is a potential employer, and certainly not a current employer that makes it harassment? At that point is it also illegal?

And is it harassment if they were just out on a date and there was no potential employment on the line? I mean, if a guy indicates he wants a woman to give him a blowjob by pushing her head down...is that automatically harassment? What if she wants to do it? Is there supposed to be verbal agreement before any head pushing is done?

Also, he didn't force her and from what she said the reason she didn't engage with him is because she had a boyfriend.

One more thing...what if she was attracted to him and wanted to do the deed and/or did the deed...would that be sexual harassment, too? What if she did actually do the deed so that she could get the job...can she still claim sexual harassment?

I would like to stipulate that what the executive did was crass and crude. But I am interested in a real definition of sexual harassment. I would also say that the woman who accepts a room upgrade, a fancy dinner outside the office complete with drinks and then is in a car at night with a stranger is also up to something. She has put herself in a really stupid situation and at some level she is getting what she has signed up for.
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  #24  
Old 11-12-2011, 06:57 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

Listen, I've been the recipient both of unwanted sexual attention designed to make me uncomfortable, of welcome sexual attention, of unwelcome sexual attention which stopped after rebuffal (that's not a word but it should be), and of innocuous, non-sexual compliments. It's not hard for me to tell the difference. It's not hard for bystanders to tell the difference. And it can't be hard for a jury to tell the difference. I think you're concern trolling.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:27 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
Listen, I've been the recipient both of unwanted sexual attention designed to make me uncomfortable, of welcome sexual attention, of unwelcome sexual attention which stopped after rebuffal (that's not a word but it should be), and of innocuous, non-sexual compliments. It's not hard for me to tell the difference. It's not hard for bystanders to tell the difference. And it can't be hard for a jury to tell the difference. I think you're concern trolling.
Concern trolling, that's a new one for me. But lo and behold there is such a thing. Interesting site. It seems like these folks don't like anyone challenging their closely held views. Not sure how this applies to my comments however.

I think your answer is inadequate but I suppose I can assume that according to your bottom line, sexual harassment is whatever the woman says it is or she'll know it when she sees it. I think it's more complicated than that, especially when it hits the public sphere as in allegations made after the fact. The law requires more than a feeling.

It seems that there is one fairly clear realm, however, and that would be the workplace. But again, the charges need to be made immediately and very clearly with no ambiguity. I think that's probably fairly difficult to achieve.

And of course sexual assault is a whole different thing.
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:46 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

It's all relative, isn't it?
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  #27  
Old 11-11-2011, 12:15 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Here's my contribution to the recent evo-psych discussions

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  #28  
Old 11-11-2011, 12:43 AM
cbjones1943 cbjones1943 is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

~3 mos ago I was in rural SE Iowa; Ron Paul signs were quite literally everywhere.

Am not a conservative but this diavlog held my interest.

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  #29  
Old 11-11-2011, 07:27 AM
Peter Sibley Peter Sibley is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

Absent such signals and incremental escalation, the two-handed scenario becomes less plausible. Still, Cain has a problem.
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  #30  
Old 11-11-2011, 10:13 AM
Romanized Romanized is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

Benjy is projecting by going on about the supposed ridiculousness of a black conservative in the race. The left is highly invested in playing this meme up. If blacks depart even a bit from the liberal plantation Obama (and several Democrats thereafter) are sunk. It's interesting to see the left continue to take this route thinking blacks dare never walk out on them.
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  #31  
Old 11-11-2011, 10:26 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by Romanized View Post
Benjy is projecting by going on about the supposed ridiculousness of a black conservative in the race. The left is highly invested in playing this meme up. If blacks depart even a bit from the liberal plantation Obama (and several Democrats thereafter) are sunk. It's interesting to see the left continue to take this route thinking blacks dare never walk out on them.
Well, I agree that liberals are highly skeptical of black conservatives but I doubt that Obama or the democrats are sunk because of they're presence. They just, for the life of them, can't figure out why in the world any black or Hispanic, for that matter, would be conservative. It's a case of cognitive dissonance and they tend to resort to all kinds of psychobabble to explain the phenomenon.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:36 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Well, I agree that liberals are highly skeptical of black conservatives but I doubt that Obama or the democrats are sunk because of they're presence. They just, for the life of them, can't figure out why in the world any black or Hispanic, for that matter, would be conservative. It's a case of cognitive dissonance and they tend to resort to all kinds of psychobabble to explain the phenomenon.
I actually suspect that democrats and liberals have pretty elaborate ideas as to how an individual black person would embrace conservatism. They just don't think they're particularly good or praiseworthy reasons, for the most part
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:41 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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I actually suspect that democrats and liberals have pretty elaborate ideas as to how an individual black person would embrace conservatism. They just don't think they're particularly good or praiseworthy reasons, for the most part
Oh I see. You aren't surprised at the phenomenon. You just know that there must be something bad and unprasieworthy about it. So it's a moral issue, not psychological.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:43 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Oh I see. You aren't surprised at the phenomenon. You just know that there must be something bad and unprasieworthy about it. So it's a moral issue, not psychological.
I was talking in general about liberals and dems.

My own theory is that Black people who embrace conservatism do so for largely the same reasons that White people do. And yes, it's a moral issue.

But let's keep pretending this is a horrific thing that only liberals do.

When Ann Coulter says "our Black are better than their Blacks" was she talking about morals or psychology?

Last edited by miceelf; 11-11-2011 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 11-11-2011, 09:36 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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I was talking in general about liberals and dems.

My own theory is that Black people who embrace conservatism do so for largely the same reasons that White people do. And yes, it's a moral issue.

But let's keep pretending this is a horrific thing that only liberals do.

When Ann Coulter says "our Black are better than their Blacks" was she talking about morals or psychology?
I think I'm beginning to see your point. You think libs think that anyone, black or white, who embraces conservatism does so for un-good or un-praiseworthy reasons. I am assuming that you also think that there is something immoral about being a conservative. You didn't say this but you sort of did. If I'm incorrect please accept my apology. Just trying to keep the statements straight.

I think Ann Coulter really likes the black conservatives who are currently on the public stage and I'm not sure how morality and psychology play into any of that. I think she says the stuff she says to piss people off. I wonder if Cornell West or Toure say the things they say just to piss people off.

PS. I didn't say that any of this is a horrible thing, BTW. I was simply making an observation which may or may not be true.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:15 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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I think I'm beginning to see your point. You think libs think that anyone, black or white, who embraces conservatism does so for un-good or un-praiseworthy reasons. I am assuming that you also think that there is something immoral about being a conservative. You didn't say this but you sort of did. If I'm incorrect please accept my apology. Just trying to keep the statements straight.

I am saying that the reasons people become conservatives are probably primarily in the moral sphere. They are making a moral calculation about a variety of things and weighing them differently than people who become liberals (or making different pre-moral assumptions).

There are a variety of specific reasons within that general sphere, some of them good, some of them mixed and some (more, IMHO than probably in yours) bad. Some are based on what I consider poor calculations, but are actually motivated by good. But I think they're in the moral sphere and I don't think they're generally differrent for Black people who do than for white people who do.

I think that the particular conservatives on display here tend to be either misquided or callous or both, but I don't think either are necessary for it. It's just what happened in this variety of cases.
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Old 11-13-2011, 12:31 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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I am saying that the reasons people become conservatives are probably primarily in the moral sphere. They are making a moral calculation about a variety of things and weighing them differently than people who become liberals (or making different pre-moral assumptions).
I would say we would need to define what morality is in this context. I would also say that I think the calculations conservatives make have a lot to do with the practical sphere and are in answer to questions about what is the best way for society to organize and what is the best role the government should take.


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I think that the particular conservatives on display here tend to be either misquided or callous or both, but I don't think either are necessary for it. It's just what happened in this variety of cases.
When you say 'on display here', I assume you mean the commenters, but maybe not. So if you are allowed to characterize conservatives, I'll take the opportunity to characterize liberals. I think liberals say stuff to make them sound understanding, tolerant, intellectual and enlightened. They seem not to care about the ramifications of their recommendations. An example of this would be the conversation about illegal immigration. They refuse to talk about the illegality and instead want to focus on how these folks are downtrodden humans who are being taken advantage of and it is our nation's responsibility to treat them as equal to the people who are here legally. Liberals don't want to talk about the cost and moral hazard involved in allowing the laws of our country to be violated because that just sounds so icky. So they turn around and say that conservatives don't like/hate immigrants which is patently untrue. That's the kind of stuff that makes me think that liberals are misquided or callous or both.
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Old 11-11-2011, 02:44 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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I actually suspect that democrats and liberals have pretty elaborate ideas as to how an individual black person would embrace conservatism. They just don't think they're particularly good or praiseworthy reasons, for the most part
Most of the ideas liberals seem to have about this are pretty offensive, if you view them objectively and consider political ideology to be independent of one's "blood".
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Old 11-11-2011, 02:58 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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Most of the ideas liberals seem to have about this are pretty offensive, if you view them objectively and consider political ideology to be independent of one's "blood".
I actually think my own ideas on it are probably the norm among liberals and they are in fact premised on this independence.

And there are plenty of pretty stupid ideas that Republicans have about why African Americans tend to vote Democratic that dwarf whatever stupidity resides in the cartoon version of dem views you seem to have in mind.
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:02 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Designed To Elicit Crazy Edition (Benjy Sarlin & Daniel Foster)

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And there are plenty of pretty stupid ideas that Republicans have about why African Americans tend to vote Democratic that dwarf whatever stupidity resides in the cartoon version of dem views you seem to have in mind.
Such as? Anything as offensive as calling someone an Uncle Tom for being a Democrat?

This concept of "race treason" seems to be pretty common place on the left. Pretty cool as a manifestation of cognitive dissonance, though.
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