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  #1  
Old 01-23-2008, 07:59 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

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  #2  
Old 01-24-2008, 12:33 AM
which hunt? which hunt? is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

Great diavlog! I could listen to a boring policy discussion from these two all day. They are insightful, pragmatic, interesting, and have chemistry.

Good times.
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  #3  
Old 01-24-2008, 12:50 AM
zookarama zookarama is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

amen to that. Ruy worries that he's just participated in "a long boring policy discussion" Well, this is why I spend so much time on this site. A tremendously successful pairing, IMO. I'll be chewing on tonight's ideas for quite a while.
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  #4  
Old 01-24-2008, 02:31 AM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

What a marvelously intelligent and refreshing discussion. Such a breath of fresh air. I'd say bring them both back head-to-head, but I would also be especially interested in hearing RT engage with yet others.

EW
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  #5  
Old 01-24-2008, 09:43 AM
jmcnulty jmcnulty is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

No wonder Ruy Teixeira seemed so smug. If the answer of the Republicans is only to be a pallid echo of the Democrats ("We're for national healthcare too, but we will do it more efficiently"), then the Reagan coalition truly is as dead as Reagan, and maybe it is, judging by the ascendancy of John McCain and the failure of Fred Thompson.

But if that is the case, who will the Republican voters be? Why vote Republican if the party intends the same destination as the Democrats, but just wants to get there a little more slowly? Why bother? Meanwhile, the Democrats are creating new spending constitutuencies. Eventually, most of the country will be getting a government check of some kind. At that point, there will not even be any remaining stigma.

The situation for Republicans is grim, grimmer that anyone wants to admit. On the one hand, you have the libertarians pulling away from the Republican Party over personal automny and social issues. On the other hand, you have the social conservatives, resentful that the Republicans have taken them form granted for decades. They are ready to walk, and the Democrats have prepared a populist evangelicalism for them. The traditional Wall Street Republicans only want to make money; they don't care which country they make it in of which party is in power, as long as taxes are not confiscatory. Paying off politicians with campaign contributions is only a cost of doing business. The national security conservatives, discredited by Iraq in the absence of a major terrorist attack, shout a lonely alarm that nobody wants to hear.

This is a mess for Republicans, and I do not see how they will not be wandering in the wilderness for years. In fact, it may be the end of the Republican Party. If what they say is true -- that the so-called "millennial" generation is socially liberal and sees a larger role for government (when the 30-year-olds are not busy playing video games)-- then it is hard to see how this turns around without long-term efforts at popular education or Democratic mistakes.

Fred Thompson was the only conservative capable of papering over the diffirences in the coalition through the election. The fact that he could not get traction with his campaign indicates that the coalition is dead. I predict that either Hillary or Obama will carry 40 states in an electoral meltdown for the Republicans.

We will become the new "Europe," which may not a bad idea since the old Europe is going Islamic.

Last edited by jmcnulty; 01-24-2008 at 09:48 AM..
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  #6  
Old 01-24-2008, 01:41 PM
waSP waSP is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

Anyone else find the reflection on Ruy's glasses to be distracting? Anyone else find his tone overly goofy at times?

Fantastic discussion. Their being engaged with each other kept me tremendously engaged.
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  #7  
Old 01-24-2008, 02:26 PM
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee Abu Noor Al-Irlandee is offline
 
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Default Mr. Douthat was considered for NYT

Gabriel Sherman reports in TNR that Mr. Douthat was on the "short" list of 25 persons in the running for the "conservative" columnist slot at the New York Times that went to Bill Kristol.

I find it hard to imagine anyone in BH TV land who wouldn't agree that Mr. Douthat would have been a better choice.

I really like Mr. Douthat's personality, intelligence and his takes on popular culture. The only time I can't read him is when he tries to defend Republican politicians but he does this pretty rarely.
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  #8  
Old 01-24-2008, 02:31 PM
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee Abu Noor Al-Irlandee is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

The new "Europe," jmcnulty? Didn't you hear that the U.S. is being taken over by Mexico? (or is that only the portion that previously was Mexico, Mr. Kaus?)

So, jmcnulty would you rather live in the coming United States of Mexico or the Islamic Caliphate of Europe?

[QUOTE=jmcnulty;69266
We will become the new "Europe," which may not a bad idea since the old Europe is going Islamic.[/QUOTE]
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  #9  
Old 01-24-2008, 03:37 PM
Trevor Trevor is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

I dunno, JM. How much of the much-vaunted Republican crackup is just a function of an idiosyncratic candidate field? If Thompson had proved to be a more effective campaigner we probably wouldn't be hearing much about deep ideological rifts in the party.

Further, I think Romney would do a good job of holding the coalition together, even if he lost in the general. He very explicitly appeals to all three legs of the Reagan coalition, and if he loses it's easy to attribute that to some combination of his Mormon beliefs, his strikingly transparent insincerity, and the general political climate. There's no reason the Republicans couldn't run a conventional, Reagan-style conservative in '12 and expect to do well.
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  #10  
Old 01-24-2008, 10:55 PM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

JM - What Ross Douthat says in this diavlog outta scare you silly, especially given your propensity to go down the scary road.

Last edited by David_PA; 01-24-2008 at 10:58 PM..
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  #11  
Old 01-24-2008, 11:06 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

jm:

I wouldn't worry too much about a prolonged Republican time in the wilderness. The Democratic leadership has an amazing ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, for one, and for another, the right-wing noise machine will only become stronger if the Dems run the table in the next election.
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  #12  
Old 01-24-2008, 11:32 PM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
jm:

I wouldn't worry too much about a prolonged Republican time in the wilderness. The Democratic leadership has an amazing ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, for one, and for another, the right-wing noise machine will only become stronger if the Dems run the table in the next election.
I wouldn't put Hillary in the 'defeat from the jaws of victory' category. Though I'm supporting Obama. H has more inevitability; and you've got to acknowledge that unlike Dukakis, Kerry, or even Gore, she's an excellent fighter.

Of course, if H is the pres. and doesn't have a successful first term, you'll be right, BJ.

Last edited by David_PA; 01-24-2008 at 11:49 PM..
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  #13  
Old 01-25-2008, 12:15 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

David:

Quote:
I wouldn't put Hillary in the 'defeat from the jaws of victory' category.
You're right about that. She's a canny and capable politician who doesn't make big mistakes.

On the other hand, picking her as the nominee risks snatching defeat in the larger, party sense: either she loses the general, or takes office with nearly half the country permanently locked into Clinton Derangement Syndrome. Neither of these is really her fault, but it is reality. So, to return to my original point, jm's worry about a prolonged Republican absence from power is probably unfounded.
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  #14  
Old 01-25-2008, 12:58 AM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
David:
You're right about that. She's a canny and capable politician who doesn't make big mistakes.

On the other hand, picking her as the nominee risks snatching defeat in the larger, party sense: either she loses the general, or takes office with nearly half the country permanently locked into Clinton Derangement Syndrome. Neither of these is really her fault, but it is reality. So, to return to my original point, jm's worry about a prolonged Republican absence from power is probably unfounded.
The data & trends both Ruy and Ross discussed didn't point that way; rather, they point to a long-term democrat trend.

What you appear to be saying BJ is that H, while canny and capable as a politico, is at the same time too politically inept to prevent herself from falling prey to C-derangement-syndrone. My view: Hillary's a lot wiser now and would prevent a lot of that from happening - again.

Furthermore, if there is a dem-trend wave, I think Hillary would be able to ride it - meaning she'd get 10% - 15% of electorate (from those who didn't vote for her) to, addition to those who voted for her, rate her favorably if she performed well.

I think Obama could do a better job of ushering in and maintaining a dem-trend, which is why I'm supporting him. But, H could do almost as well.

Last edited by David_PA; 01-25-2008 at 01:10 AM..
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  #15  
Old 01-25-2008, 01:22 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

David:

You make two good points: reminding me of Ruy and Ross's predictions about trends, and arguing for Hillary Clinton being able to win over some of her detractors.

To the latter, she does have some evidence of doing this from her efforts in (pretty red) upstate NY when running for Senator. It remains to be seen if she can overcome the right-wing noise machine on a truly national scale, though. I swear, she could get elected president, end all strife in the Middle East, cure cancer, solve nuclear fusion, and invent the next Internet, and Rush Limbaugh would still be railing against her. And worse, a lot of people would say Rush was right.

Which leads me to my even more serious doubts about your first point. For a long time now, the majority of the population's view on issues has much more closely resembled a Democratic platform, yet people still keep voting Republican. Or, at least, did until 2006. I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons why this should be so, but in the end, there's something real at work here, and not just in Kansas. Maybe I'm being defeatist, or just worrying unnecessarily based on recent history, but ... well, ask me how I feel in two years.
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  #16  
Old 01-25-2008, 01:41 AM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

Ha - well, BJ, I definitely agree that Rush and a good percentage of his ditto-heads would hate H 'til the end of their days, no matter what she would do, if pres.

Still, think she can win over some centrists and center-rights.

I'd be inclined to agree that with you that the dems wouldn't be able to cash in on the dem-trends, if not for two things: 1) breaking in 2006, the repub attack machine isn't at full strength like it was in 2000 and 2004, 2) hearing Ross assess the repub's strength in the current climate, showed a party with an old message out of focus with the times. That can't be turned around quickly.

I'm not saying dem landslides, just at least a percent or two more falling their way - enough to win, given how close the last two pres contests have been.

And ... even if I thought you were right, I wouldn't admit that now. I'd pay homage to your 'I told you so's' next Nov - and hope you'd do the same.

Last edited by David_PA; 01-25-2008 at 02:08 AM..
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  #17  
Old 01-25-2008, 02:03 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

David:

Nothing would make me happier than having to bow to your "I told you so's" next year.
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  #18  
Old 01-25-2008, 02:36 AM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
David:

Nothing would make me happier than having to bow to your "I told you so's" next year.
[... bowing]

Last edited by David_PA; 01-25-2008 at 10:53 AM..
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  #19  
Old 01-25-2008, 09:09 AM
jmcnulty jmcnulty is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to David_PA

You said: "What Ross Douthat says in this diavlog outta scare you silly, especially given your propensity to go down the scary road."

I think I said that the situation is grimmer for Republicans that anyone in the party wants to admit. The only hope is a libertarian approach (not that I personally like it) because the currrent "hook-up" generation, sexually libertine, socially liberal, with a live-and-let-live attitude towards homosexuality, is open to a litbertarian approach on exonomics. The problem is that if the Republican Party alienates the religious right, by taking an agnostic position on abortion, for instance, the party cannot win without those votes. I suspect that a few years of Hillarycare and attendant bureaucracy will make a difference. Obama is a different case, but time would tell whether he truly is transformative or just another programmatic big government liberal.

Regarding my tendency "to go down the scary road," I would ask, as opposed to what road? I do not think that I have gone down "the scary road" ro recognize where we seem to be heading, even though the destination is not yet clear to most people. By the time it is clear to everyone, it will be too late to do anything. As I have said, we will get denials that anything is wrong right up to the moment when we will be told, "There is nothing that we can do."

I once thought that our confrontation with Islam was like the irrestible force meeting the immovable object. But we seem to be willing to make significant accommodations to Islam for social peace and to feel good about ourselves. In a clash of civilizations, we lose, because we are prepared to move away from OUR civilization as far as necessary. We have seen abridgement of Western rights -- free speech, for instance -- that I would have thought impossible -- all in the name of "tolerance."

Not a SINGLE American newspaper published the cartoons of Muhammed (even for "informational" purposes), yet The New York Times felt free to publish a picture of a painting of the Virgin Mary smeared with Elephant dung. Tolerance of what?
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  #20  
Old 01-25-2008, 11:23 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to David_PA

jm:

Quote:
Not a SINGLE American newspaper published the cartoons of Muhammed (even for "informational" purposes) ...
I'll go along with you on that bit. I thought this was shameful behavior on the part of the MSM. Truly, they let the terrorists win that one.
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  #21  
Old 01-25-2008, 11:37 AM
cousincozen cousincozen is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to David_PA

"...yet The New York Times felt free to publish a picture of a painting of the Virgin Mary smeared with Elephant dung."

A Christopher Hitchens quote in a current article at VDare might provide a hint of an explanation for that: "These things, which of course disturb the faithful, are rather encouraging in that they show that a high moral character is not a precondition for great moral accomplishments." In other words, what about all the good things that Hitler did? But on the bright side, as Mr. Douthat points out, being identified with such moral desolation doesn't cut it with the, dare I say it, moral majority. Much to the consternation of the guardians of elite opinion, the slavering hoi polloi aren't THAT gullible.
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  #22  
Old 01-25-2008, 11:54 AM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to David_PA

JM:

So, why don't you apply worst-case-scenario (aka scared) thinking to the global warming issue? The worst case there could be just as dire (as the ME issues) for your children and grandchildren?
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  #23  
Old 01-25-2008, 12:32 PM
jmcnulty jmcnulty is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to David_PA

I don't object to The New York Times publishing the picture of the Virgin Mary. The point is that it is acceptable and considered "free speech" to publish anything critical of Christianity, yet the "proper respect" must be shown towards Islam and Muhammed. Isn't this the first step to dhimmitude?

Whatever happened to "freedom for the idea that we hate?" The goal is not that something critical of Christianity should NOT be published, but that Islam should not be immune from criticism or comment.

I fear that at some point, it will become socially unacceptable to SAY OR WRITE anything critical of Islam and Muhammed. This has already has a chilling effect on radio and television.

I am not a postulant in the new global warming religion. For secularists, it is a spiritual replacement for the failed god of communism since its collapse -- a way to restirct and pay penance for the success of capitalism.

Why is it that one possible "solution" to the emissions problem is to replace today's cars with fuel cell-equipped ones? Do you not realize that one of the consequences of fuel cerll cars will be water vapor emissions, and water vapor is a much more important "greenhouse gas" than carbon dioxide.

Carbon dioxide is a small component of the atmosphere. As I understand it, "global warming" stopped in 2001, and global temperatures have remained unchanged since then. Have emissions of carbon dioxide remained constant since then?

The UN panel is predominantly not climate scientists, but political representatives of governments. This is an attempt to do indirecly through environmentalism what the Left could not do through Marxism.

Last edited by jmcnulty; 01-25-2008 at 12:34 PM..
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  #24  
Old 01-25-2008, 01:02 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to David_PA

jm:

Quote:
I fear that at some point, it will become socially unacceptable to SAY OR WRITE anything critical of Islam and Muhammed. This has already has a chilling effect on radio and television.

I am not a postulant in the new global warming religion. For secularists, it is a spiritual replacement for the failed god of communism since its collapse -- a way to restirct and pay penance for the success of capitalism.
You off your meds again?
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  #25  
Old 01-25-2008, 01:24 PM
jmcnulty jmcnulty is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to Bjkeefe:

Very clever. And so original. That is the kind of thinking and insight that we need.
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  #26  
Old 01-25-2008, 01:46 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to Bjkeefe:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
Very clever. And so original. That is the kind of thinking and insight that we need.
Thanks! I appreciate the shout-out!
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  #27  
Old 01-26-2008, 05:23 AM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to Bjkeefe:

Gee when I made such a suggestion of a hate filed screed against me personally it was followed by further hate filled screeds. While I am getting old and sometimes my memory fails I believe you were one of those that replied.

Last edited by piscivorous; 01-26-2008 at 05:32 AM..
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  #28  
Old 01-26-2008, 08:50 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to Bjkeefe:

Pisc:

To whom was that reply directed?
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  #29  
Old 01-26-2008, 11:41 AM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to Bjkeefe:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Pisc:

To whom was that reply directed?
To you and TwinSwords, of course, BJ - he he. My comments are too short to be called screeds and are never hate-filled.

But then again, yours aren't really hate-filled - more like contemptuous, which mine sometimes are too.

Last edited by David_PA; 01-26-2008 at 11:50 AM..
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  #30  
Old 01-26-2008, 11:55 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to Bjkeefe:

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_PA View Post
To you and TwinSwords, of course, BJ - he he. My comments are too short to be called screeds and are never hate-filled.

But then again, yours aren't really hate-filled - more like contemptuous, which mine sometimes are too.
That was my thought, too, that Pisc had replied to me, but the threaded view suggests he replied to JM, and the tone of his remarks could as easily have been read as a response to JM.

Thanks for chiming in, in any case, since I'd rather be called "contemptuous" than "hate-filled."
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  #31  
Old 01-26-2008, 12:31 PM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to Bjkeefe:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
That was my thought, too, that Pisc had replied to me, but the threaded view suggests he replied to JM, and the tone of his remarks could as easily have been read as a response to JM.

Thanks for chiming in, in any case, since I'd rather be called "contemptuous" than "hate-filled."
It's hard to figure out when you post which thread you are replying to - as it always gets mixed up.

I support our being contemptuous - in the service of getting posters on the right to reveal the often shaky premises on which the more sweeping right-wing generalizations are built.

Last edited by David_PA; 01-26-2008 at 01:52 PM..
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  #32  
Old 01-25-2008, 02:02 PM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
The UN panel is predominantly not climate scientists, but political representatives of governments. This is an attempt to do indirecly through environmentalism what the Left could not do through Marxism.
Right. and of course ... the Right has no political agenda whatsoever in manipulating people like you, getting you all hopped up on war adrenaline, so you'll continually sound the alarm bells about the "Islamo Fascist" menace.

Last edited by David_PA; 01-25-2008 at 02:16 PM..
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  #33  
Old 01-25-2008, 02:16 PM
jmcnulty jmcnulty is offline
 
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I haven't described an "Islamofascist" menace. What would YOU call it? As I understand it, the term is an effort to distance the terrorists from orthodox Isllam by describing the terrorists as "Islamofascist," combining elements of Islam with the threat of fascism. It is, at best, useful shorthand. I do not think anyone has got me excited about anything, as if I am just useful dupe who can be manipulated. My opinons about Islam come from a reading of the Qur'an and books about Islam, including one containing translations of the writings (intended for Muslims) of Bin Laden and Zawahiri. Is it your contention that we should NOT educate ourselves about Islam? No one has pointed out factual errors in my depiction of Islam. Whether you want to hear it or not is something else.
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  #34  
Old 01-25-2008, 02:23 PM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
I haven't described an "Islamofascist" menace. What would YOU call it? As I understand it, the term is an effort to distance the terrorists from orthodox Isllam by describing the terrorists as "Islamofascist," combining elements of Islam with the threat of fascism. It is, at best, useful shorthand. I do not think anyone has got me excited about anything, as if I am just useful dupe who can be manipulated. My opinons about Islam come from a reading of the Qur'an and books about Islam, including one containing translations of the writings (intended for Muslims) of Bin Laden and Zawahiri. Is it your contention that we should NOT educate ourselves about Islam? No one has pointed out factual errors in my depiction of Islam. Whether you want to hear it or not is something else.
C'mon ... all of the sudden out of nowhere you decided to start reading about Islam and that had nothing to do with the anti-terrorist drumbeat that began after September 11th, 2001? You give Zawahire and Bin Laden so much credence - as if everything they think they can accomplish they will. They're rhetoricians leading a political movement and you're swallowing it whole. And, on top of that you're not self-aware enough to recognize the Right's manipulation of you. It's a double-duping whamy that has lead to your continual little-picture ranting.

Last edited by David_PA; 01-25-2008 at 03:47 PM..
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  #35  
Old 01-25-2008, 02:54 PM
jmcnulty jmcnulty is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to David_PA

I taught a course on Islam five years ago. I have been reading other books since then. I do not know what the "Repulican" policy on terorism is. I am very unhappy about some aspects of the Bush Administration's policy in this area (sich as Karen Hughes conducing "outreach" to the Muslim world). The only good thing that can be said about it is that it is not the willful blindess of the Democrats, who, like you, see terorism as, in the Rev. John Forbes Kerry's phrase, "a nuisance, like prostitution or gambling." John Edwards, a candidate for President who is still taken seriously, has called the war on terrorism a mere slogan for a bumper sticker. I do not know what Bin Laden or Zawahiri can accomplish. Before 2001, no one thought they could make a major attack on American soil. I just know what their intentions are. The current lull in attacks can be seen either as (1) proof that antiterrost operations are succeeding or (2) that attacks are being withheld until a disabling attack can be mounted. In contrast to the Japanese on December 7, Zawahiri (the real brains of the operation) realizes that September 11 had a bad effect for them -- it served to make us mad and, temporarily, vigilant. The next attack has to be both unforeseen and "disabling." I do not expect to convince you. When it happens, maybe you will be convinced. The fact that any political party happens to have a "political agenda" on an issue (when every political party seeks work out a "poliical agenda" on EVERY issue) is irrevelent.
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  #36  
Old 01-25-2008, 03:05 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to David_PA

Quote:
I taught a course on Islam five years ago.
Now that's scary.
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  #37  
Old 01-25-2008, 03:17 PM
jmcnulty jmcnulty is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to wonderment:

I am always surprised at the rudeness of Leftist commenters. I do not care whether you find anything scary or not. Obviously, you find me more scary than terrorism. So be it. It would do you good to take a course on Islam, although you think yourself to be already so smart that you may be uneducable.
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  #38  
Old 01-25-2008, 03:31 PM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Default Re: Reply to wonderment:

JM: Terrorism is a real threat. We just disagree about what to do about it. Assessing the threat has nothing to do with what Islam teaches, or what radical Muslims advocate. It's about doing the best we can to protect ourselves given what we can find out about terrorist operations.

I'd not get so mad at you if you'd have discussions about what to do about the terrorist threat. But, continually hearing you trying to 'teach' about what Islam says is tiring. And it's beside the point.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:11 PM
jmcnulty jmcnulty is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 144
Default Re: Reply to David_PA:

I think it matters if Islam is the motivating ideology. We have never faced an enemy like this. The kamikazis of World War II attacked battleships, not office buildings, and they did not operate under the promise of immediate Paradise. I hope that you are right. I apologize for being a "bore" about Islam, but Samuel Huntington wrote his book about the "clash of civilizations" in the EARLY NINETIES. He foresaw where this ideology would lead.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:43 PM
David_PA David_PA is offline
 
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Posts: 105
Default Re: Reply to JMcNulty:

Huntington saw it would lead to what it has lead to today, or he forecast more trouble than the West has so far experienced?
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