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  #41  
Old 04-24-2008, 08:34 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: maybe we just missed the point?

One more thing "whatfur"
I assume you didn't even read my post, but the jist was that people in the "heartland" and rural areas are not misguided or dumb. Your party is banking that they are.
Gen. Patton said Americans love a winner, and will not tolerate a loser. You guys
won the last election, but you can't close the deal in Iraq, or Afganistan. Don't look now, but your incompetence is showing. And another thing Americans don't like is being used for RPG fodder.
You know what they do to Carpetbaggers don't you?
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  #42  
Old 04-24-2008, 08:39 PM
rfannan rfannan is offline
 
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Default Re: maybe we just missed the point?

It wasn't the Repub governments in Michigan and Florida who moved the primaries up to hurt the Democrats. In Florida, the Democrates voted overwhelmingly (unanimously in one house, all but two in another house) to approve the new dates). In Michigan, the democrats control the governorship and one of the two houses. It was a joint idea (and the Repub Party actually stripped the party of half of its delegates for doing so)
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  #43  
Old 04-24-2008, 08:42 PM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default The Coming Democratic Meltdown in Microcosm

I am so freaking depressed!!!

This diavlog shows the Democratic disconnect to perfection. Mark and Jeralyn each support their own candidate, and neither will budge. Both make emotional arguments, ignore each others' points and generally do little more than exhaust each other in the course of the hour.

I just registered as a Democrat so I could vote for Obama in my state's upcoming primary. However, I think Bob Wright nailed my candidate's growing weakness in his latest conversation with Mickey Kaus. It saddens me to say it, but I'm no longer sure that Obama is electable in the fall.

Fundamentally, however, Jeralyn is right when she says that Hillary should not drop out. And no matter how much I wish she would quit, she shouldn't. And that's because she's running in a primary system that is totally pathological. The Dems have created a nightmare system that shows how much they actually fear democracy. Imagine if Major League Baseball played a best-of-seven World Series, and then asked that season's All Star teams to pick the world champion. That's exactly what the Democrats have created, and it stinks to high heaven.

So, by the party's own logic, Hillary must fight on, because the popular vote and the pledged delegate count don't matter. They're only advisory. The party machinery ultimately will decide who the nominee will be. And I can't see any way for them to do that without fatally wounding whomever they select.
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  #44  
Old 04-24-2008, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: props to Mark Kleinman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel_Cairo View Post
He showed some real Zen Mojo in keeping all calm and cool while Jeralyn spouted all this crazy talk. The force was clearly with him.
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  #45  
Old 04-24-2008, 09:09 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Beware of unrealistic expectations

Quote:
If Obama (who I will enthusiastically support, against Mcquagmire) does not transcend "clinggate" in a big way, we better start painting our signs for the big Iraq march on Washington in the fall.
There should be a big Iraq march on Washington in any case.

None of the three major candidates can be trusted to end the war in Iraq, although any Dem. would be infinitely better than McPerpetualwar.

Please do not harbor unrealistic expectations of Obama. He is the best of the three, but he and Hillary are both making campaign promises that neither can fulfill.

Supporters of Obama need to be ready to hold him accountable on ISSUES and RESULTS, not charisma, oratory or the trappings of diversity.

The Dems. are NOT electing the most progressive of the candidates. That would have been (1) Dennis Kucinich* or (2) the eminently viable John Edwards.** Kucinich would have ended the war for real in 3 months, and Edwards would not have rested for an instant until he delivered on universal healthcare and a new anti-poverty program.

* Dismissed as a joke candidate by the media.
** Slimed and swiftboated by hacks like Mickey Kaus.
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  #46  
Old 04-24-2008, 09:27 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Shorter EW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloggin' Noggin View Post
It really is possible to distinguish between the following two propositions and assign them different truth values:

1. Obama is the greatest thing since sliced bread (whole wheat, I guess) and will win easily in November

and

2. Ms. Merritt did a lousy job of defending her position, from a logical point of view (as opposed to a spinmeister's point of view).

At least most of us can make such distinctions: for example, my political position is closer to Bill Scher's than Jonah Goldberg's, yet in their diavlog together, I think Goldberg did better than Scher. I think in last week's Scher/Carroll diavlog, Scher wasn't very effective against Conn. I like Obama, but I don't think he did very well in the PA debate. See? It's not so hard.

I think Obama has a better chance of winning than you do, but that doesn't mean I think racism poses no dangers for his candidacy. I do take seriously your concerns, but I don't regard them as established with the certainty you project. Perhaps things will turn out as you expect, but I don't think your case is strengthened either by calling everyone who disagrees deluded or by claiming that Ms. Merritt did a good job of defending her position.
Your persuasiveness would be enhanced by an attempt to be (or at least appear) a bit more judicious.
Bloggin' the logician... thanks for the clarity, concision and a response to name calling that responds in opposition and not in kind.
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  #47  
Old 04-24-2008, 09:30 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

I didn't get the Götterdämerung title in the first place.

And change that um laut to Umlaut, BN, making it one word and uppercase first letter (all nouns in German are capitalized), before I tear all my hair out!
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  #48  
Old 04-24-2008, 10:01 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: The Coming Democratic Meltdown in Microcosm

Bokonon:
Quote:

"This diavlog shows the Democratic disconnect to perfection. Mark and Jeralyn each support their own candidate, and neither will budge. Both make emotional arguments, ignore each others' points and generally do little more than exhaust each other in the course of the hour.

However, I think Bob Wright nailed my candidate's growing weakness in his latest conversation with Mickey Kaus."

I listened to Bob's point about the flawed judgement that Obama employed by the "cling comments." I think he contended that it was enough of a gaffe to be considered a deal-breaker. Was he serious about the import of this one gaffe. I don't have the luxury of being able to replay it currently, but my recollection is that Bob didn't offer his usual evidence based case for his supposition.
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  #49  
Old 04-24-2008, 10:29 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

Isn't Götterdämerung used as a substitute for a calamity or a disastrous ending.
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  #50  
Old 04-24-2008, 10:49 PM
David Thomson David Thomson is offline
 
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Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

"Barack Obama is black, therefore he can't win."

Who says that? "Barry" Obama's racial characteristics are not the determining factor. If he were a right-center Republican---he would win by a landslide. No, Obama's problems are his leftism and race hustling. The country is very ready to accept an elected leader of color, but not one pushing a tacit "get whitey" agenda.
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  #51  
Old 04-24-2008, 10:58 PM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
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Default Re: Beware of unrealistic expectations

Re Wonderment's:

Quote:
None of the three major candidates can be trusted to end the war....

Please do not harbor unrealistic expectations of Obama.... he and Hillary are both making campaign promises neither can fulfill.

Supporters of Obama need to be ready to hold him accountable on ISSUES and RESULTS, not charisma, oratory or trappings of diversity.
Well, that's the big problem, isn't it?: The chronic dishonesty of politicians. I never suggested Hillary was anything but a street fighter and would never have held that against Obama, either, but for his obvious and undeniable hypocrisy.

Hillary never claimed to be a virgin.

Yet Obama is actually telling the biggest lie (as its the only arrow in his quiver): There is no way, if he was in Hillary's boots on "authorization day," he wouldn't have voted exactly as Hillary voted, this because representing a heavily Jewish senatorial base, failure to make such a vote would have ended his political career forever.

Nonetheless, even though he's clearly just as bad a political liar, he arrogantly and duplicitously proclaims he's as pure as new-driven snow, bringing an entirely new politics and "change" to an inherently unfixable system.

EW
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  #52  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:00 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

Quote:
"Barry" Obama's racial characteristics are not the determining factor.
Calling Barack Obama "Barry" conveys an inherently racist message. Every time you do it you reveal yourself as a bigot.

It's really disgusting code, but I wish you good luck with it. I pray it catches on with Republican talking heads. Nothing could be better for the Obama campaign.
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  #53  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:07 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Jewish base???

Quote:
Yet Obama is actually telling the biggest lie (as its the only arrow in his quiver): There is no way, if he was in Hillary's boots on "authorization day," he wouldn't have voted exactly as Hillary voted, this because representing a heavily Jewish senatorial base, failure to make such a vote would have ended his political career forever.
That's absurd. First of all, what on earth are Jews being dragged into the conversation for? The large majority of US Jews has always opposed the war. Also, Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois and 20 other Dems. voted against the war authorization. At least 4 of the opposing Senate votes were cast by Jewish Senators:

Sens. Akaka (D-HI), Bingaman (D-NM), Boxer (D-CA), Byrd (D-WV), Conrad (D-ND), Corzine (D-NJ), Dayton (D-MN), Durbin (D-IL), Feingold (D-WI), Graham (D-FL), Inouye (D-HI), Kennedy (D-MA), Leahy (D-VT), Levin (D-MI), Mikulski (D-MD), Murray (D-WA), Reed (D-RI), Sarbanes (D-MD), Stabenow (D-MI), Wellstone (D-MN), Wyden (D-OR
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  #54  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:07 PM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default Re: The Real Crime: That Barack Ever Came forward as a Candidate

You're normally so level-headed EW, but this is a totally specious argument. Obama, weak as he is, is winning by many metrics. What he is showing, starkly, is how weak a candidate Hillary is. Whenever someone asks "Why can't he put her away?" I ask "Why can't she put him away?" She has had every advantage in this race--incredible name recognition, a $200 million war chest, the party machinery behind her from the start--and has blown them all.

Unfortunately, both candidates and the entire Democratic primary process are showing how weak the party is. Look at their total failure to achieve anything since they took over Congress in 2006. They were completely in charge of designing their own primary rules, and they came up with a system that is totally undemocratic, guaranteed to produce a debacle in a closely contested race.

America is in very dire straits. The fascist neocons are hell-bent on destroying constitutional government, and the loopy democrats are playing Keystone Kops on the sidelines. I am not happy about this.
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  #55  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:19 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Calling Barack Obama "Barry" conveys an inherently racist message.
You'll have to walk me through why it's racist. If anything, it points up the conscious decision Barack made to adopt a black persona. I think it is a legitimate topic for discussion, especially as we're now having a national dialog on race. Specifically, I wonder about the state of his psyche, especially in light of having grown up in a time that being half black was a big deal.
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  #56  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:20 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Real Crime: That Barack Ever Came forward as a Candidate

Quote:
Unfortunately, both candidates and the entire Democratic primary process are showing how weak the party is. Look at their total failure to achieve anything since they took over Congress in 2006. They were completely in charge of designing their own primary rules, and they came up with a system that is totally undemocratic, guaranteed to produce a debacle in a closely contested race.
I think this sums the situation up pretty neatly. I've never seen so much advantage squandered so efficiently ever before. And the Republicans set a pretty high bar in that regard.
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  #57  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:22 PM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default Re: The Coming Democratic Meltdown in Microcosm

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
I listened to Bob's point about the flawed judgement that Obama employed by the "cling comments." I think he contended that it was enough of a gaffe to be considered a deal-breaker. Was he serious about the import of this one gaffe. I don't have the luxury of being able to replay it currently, but my recollection is that Bob didn't offer his usual evidence based case for his supposition.
You may well be right that Bob's argument wasn't well-supported. I was just struck by how his growing sense of gloom matched my own. I can't shake the feeling that both candidates are fatally flawed, and that we're in for a Democratic meltdown in the fall and yet another right-wing administration. The current administration is run by a moron, but a McCain one will be run by a viciously angry man whose out-of-control temper could well launch a worse military disaster than the one we're in now.
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  #58  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:25 PM
Whatfur
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Default Re: maybe we just missed the point?

First, thanks rfannan for filling in handle on his attempt at facts.

Yes handle, an attempt to swift boat McCain would be would be comical. You see...the reason it worked against John Kerry is that he took what could of been a respectable military career and blew it with false stories building up his own experiences while tarnishing the reputations of everyone else there... while McCain honored himself and honored HIS band of brothers. So I would keep that one under your "magic hat"

Secondly, I hate to urinate on your arugula salad but I am pretty sure that people in the heartland relate much more to those of a conservative bent. Although I have to admit there are times when the honesty of both your candidates could not be questioned. Like when Hillary said, "We're going to take things away from you"...you know? "on behalf of the common good". Or when Obama said, "...the Bush tax cuts, people didn't need them, and they weren't even asking for them.". And you ARE correct, WE are not misguided or dumb and most of us know it would be dumb to turn our back on Iraq...maybe your pollsters are spending too much time in Boston or LA.

But anyway, sorry for the interruption...please...please...carry on. DON'T CLICK HERE

Last edited by Whatfur; 04-24-2008 at 11:34 PM..
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  #59  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:30 PM
JLF JLF is offline
 
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Default Re: Shorter EW

I fear you might be right about Obama's chances. I also fear that Clinton's chances aren't much better. There isn't another Democratic politician that can guarantee a stronger GOP vote. No one has her negatives, negatives that aren't going away by November.

So what that leaves is the choice of two of the weakest possible candidates to face the one Republican with the strongest chances of attracting moderate Democrats. And knowing this, every Democratic leader is busy rearranging the deck chairs. Without much doubt, Obama will be the Democratic Party nominee. Without much doubt, 30-40% of the American electorate in November will willingly sacrifice another four or five thousand young men in a hopeless war in Iraq and mortgage the economy to China all to avoid voting for a black man.

Mencken was right: "No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people."
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  #60  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:31 PM
Bloggin' Noggin Bloggin' Noggin is offline
 
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Default Re: Shorter EW

[QUOTE=Eastwest;74923]Re BlogginNoggin's:



Quote:
First: If you'll trouble to review my posts, you'll notice I never made any reference to Ms. Merritt or any acknowledgement of her arguments. (I didn't find her overly eloquent. Nonetheless, the negative characterizations of her POV owe more to righteous indignation than objective analysis.)
Not so fast! You dismissed Jeff's objection to Ms. Merritt's reasoning (note that: her reasoning, not her eloquence) as a consequence of his being a member of the "Obama cult". So you WERE implicitly saying that no one could object to her reasoning on sensible grounds.

Quote:
Second, On my calling folks out for "delusion," etc. it's a bit of a diagnostic tactic and therapeutic stratagem.

"Delusion" refers to an inability (willful or otherwise) to see reality as it actually is (as distinct from how one might wish it to be).

The diagnostic aspect: Where folks react strongly, then I know how acute their "Obama Deification Syndrome" has become.

The therapeutic stratagem: For those amenable to learning (maybe 20%), this may actually facilitate awakening to realities.
I know of no reputable psychotherapy that would regard such therapy as anything but malpractice. To diagnose and treat someone, you actually need to know something about them, other than that they see things differently from you. There are any number of non-delusional reasons why someone might disagree with you -- those must be eliminated before you can diagnose "delusion". If I went in for long-distance diagnoses myself, I might suggest that you suffer from delusions of grandeur.
Certainly Obama isn't the only one with a condescension problem.

Quote:
Sorry if you might have taken this personally.
I didn't and that was in no way my point. My point, to reiterate, was that even a Hillary supporter (one who isn't himself a Hillarybot) can make a distinction between support of Hillary and thinking that Ms. Merritt did a half-way decent job at defending her sensibly (just as I feel Bill Scher didn't defend liberalism very well against Jonah Goldberg).

Quote:
Your right, though: People don't like straight talk. They'd rather be told what they want to hear (common echo-chamber sentiment).
Again, this bears no resemblance to what I said. What I actually said was that someone who is independent-minded enough and discerning enough to reject bad defenses of his own side (what I called "being judicious") has more credibility with those who are not already in the choir than someone who is not so discerning and independent.
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  #61  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:38 PM
JLF JLF is offline
 
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Default Re: Can a black win? Can a obliterator of Iran win?

If Obama loses in November you can bet the ranch she'll be back in 2012.
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  #62  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:40 PM
David Thomson David Thomson is offline
 
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Default Obama called himself "Barry"

"Calling Barack Obama "Barry" conveys an inherently racist message. Every time you do it you reveal yourself as a bigot."

Obama called himself Barry until his early adult years. I suspect that he reverted to Barack once he decided to become a race hustler in Chicago. "Barack" sounds so Third Worldish---and impresses guilt tripped white "yuppies." It makes him seem "authentic."
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  #63  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:47 PM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
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Default On the Supposedly "Racist" Nature of Calling Obama "Barry"

Re Wonderment's (referencing Popcorn's reproval: "Calling Barak "Barry" just makes you seem petty and ridiculous."):

Quote:
And Racist (Make sure he keeps a slave name, like the folks who continued calling Mohammad Ali ,"Cassius").
Well, actually, Wonderment, that's uncalled for.

"Barry" is the nickname Senator Obama and family used thru early college years. My rationale: deflation of this echo-chamber's Obama-deification syndrome.

Obama's as phony as the next politician, all the more so for his false apologies, just "slicker." Totally diagnostic was his juvenile "brushing off of shoulders and shoes" act after being crushed in that admittedly creepy faux debate.

Calling a politician by a deflating nickname when they condescend to the electorate by persisting in living a lie is not inherently racist.

I've actually come to view the whole idiotic marathon campaign as a comedic exercise only bone-headed politicians could create. (The whole thing, from announcing intent to celebrating in the convention shouldn't exceed six months and shouldn't involve such obscene financial manipulations which seem to shut out everyone but ego-mad intellectual prostitutes.)

Cheers,
EW
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  #64  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:50 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

It might be an interesting study to go through various posts and tally the various disparaging names you use to refer to Senator McCain and yet here you are lecturing someone on name calling. How precious!
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  #65  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
It might be an interesting study to go through various posts and tally the various disparaging names you use to refer to Senator McCain and yet here you are lecturing someone on name calling. How precious!
And ten demerits for McPerpetualwar...that's not even trying!
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  #66  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:14 AM
Bloggin' Noggin Bloggin' Noggin is offline
 
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Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by look View Post
You'll have to walk me through why it's racist. If anything, it points up the conscious decision Barack made to adopt a black persona. I think it is a legitimate topic for discussion, especially as we're now having a national dialog on race. Specifically, I wonder about the state of his psyche, especially in light of having grown up in a time that being half black was a big deal.
I don't know that I follow Wonderment in finding it racist, but calling Obama "Barry" in scare quotes certainly seems a good deal more like name calling than "raising a topic of discussion."

That's not to say that we can't talk about his decision to identify as black, nor do we have to just speculate -- he wrote a whole book about negotiating between his black and white identities and worlds. (And if you haven't read _Dreams of My Father, I recommend it.) I don't object to your raising any issue you like about him, but I think it's quite a stretch to say that David Thomson and EastWest are "raising an issue for discussion" when they call Obama "Barry." Seems more like an expression of contempt.

One may of course spin straw into gold and take such taunts as a jumping off point for discussing Obama's complex racial identification, but it doesn't follow that the straw was gold all along.

"Barack" really is his full name, of course -- it isn't as though he changed his name -- and I don't think there would have been anything wrong if Jimmy Carter had preferred to be known as James Carter as president. Yes, there's more to it than that, but I don't see much troubling about it. To reclaim his foreign sounding name strikes me as a measure of integrity: he doesn't want to "pass" for white. Once upon a time Jewish actors had to change their names to something more Anglo-Saxon, less "foreign," less Jewish. I don't blame them for doing this. But at some point, Jews decided they didn't want to feel they had something shameful to hide and they kept their names. You could say that such Jews were "choosing a Jewish identity", but that rather overlooks the way in which IT chose THEM, and their choice was more a matter of figuring out what it MEANT to them and how they could keep from feeling as though it were a shameful secret, and how they could keep from selling out their fellow Jews for the sake of their own privileges.
Obama doesn't disown his "white identity" either, as far as I can see, but he wants to be very clear that he's not going to try to get special treatment by pretending not to be black as well.
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  #67  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:23 AM
January January is offline
 
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Default Re: Can a black win? -- Crackerstanis vs Chardonnay Sippers

Judging from the last election, where John Kerry was stigmatized before the General campaigning even began, it would seem Clinton can't win because people have already made up their minds about her. Her negatives started high and only go higher because there's so little she can do to change past perceptions. No amount of chug-a-lug on Hillary's part will convince any Texan I know that she's really one of The People and as such washes dishes just like the rest of us ladies.

But what are Obama's chances? To the white people I grew up with, blacks are either so good they're divinely sent (think of the character in The Green Mile, the wrongly-accused Death Row prisoner who would rather go to the electric chair than cause any trouble to his white jailers), or so evil they run with the hounds of Satan. And since most people, particularly politicians, are merely representative of humanity, it was perhaps inevitable that Obama's campaign would go a bit pear-shaped. First there was the Rev. Wright thing. While the cosmopolitan John McWhorter perfectly understood that quite mainstream Blacks might go to Trinity United, your typical Texas redneck, the kind who wants to hear nothing from Blacks that isn't expressed in tones of forgiveness, is shocked, shocked, to discover that not everyone has forgotten the pesky past of lynchings and Jim Crow.

And then there's Cling-gate. Ironically, Obama has the same disease that Bush Jr. has. When he's exhausted -- and he's been very tired this last month -- he has trouble forming words and sentences. I understood the short-hand he was speaking in, unapologetic wine-drinking brie-eater that I am. If you restate what he said in its most extreme form, Obama would be the first to disagree with you. But as a way of saying, "Lay off rural people. Even if you don't understand them, try to think of how you'd feel in their position." I can appreciate where he was coming from and give him a D+ and a "must try harder" in the margins. Bush said things that were actually cruel about some trailer-trash death-row penitent when he was running for prez, but no one punished him for it. After all, he's white. Bush doesn't have to be as four times as good as the next guy to get the job.

More evidence of this odd standard, where we demand perfection of Obama but accept mere competence from Hillary: most MSM articles I read on the race assume that Obama will have problems getting disaffected white Reagan Dems once the nomination is finished in his favor. The MSM may be right about that. But I see far less ink spilled on the question of Hillary's ability to win back Black voters should she get the nomination. Or to win back us white Chardonnay-sippers who have only recently discovered how thoroughly our own party despises us.
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  #68  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:35 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Smile Diavlog Synopsis

You missed a few "I'm not going to answer that"'s and "Oh, come on!"'s.
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  #69  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:46 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Shorter EW

Quote:
but the benign racism of my mother.
I'm curious about what you mean by this. It's not that I can't imagine something like "benign racism," but that it sounds like it means something quite specific to you.
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  #70  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:50 AM
hans gruber hans gruber is offline
 
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Default Re: G

I really liked Kleiman in a previous appearance, I think it was with McCardle. In this one he comes across like a jerk. He needs to learn to dial it back a bit when he's debating somebody as gracious as Merritt. As to his question, repeated like 10 times, why did Hillary bring up Farrakhan? Because Obama's pastor, friend, and mentor of 20 years gave him a lifetime achievement award and said he "epitomized greatness." If Hillary's pastor, friend, and mentor of 20 years gave David Duke an award, would Kleiman think Obama should just shut up and be a "good Democrat" in order not to scare black voters?
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  #71  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:51 AM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 592
Default Re: Jewish base???

Re Wonderment's:

Quote:
That's absurd. First of all, what on earth are Jews being dragged into the conversation for? The large majority of US Jews has always opposed the war. Also, Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois and 20 other Dems. voted against the war authorization. At least 4 of the opposing Senate votes were cast by Jewish Senators....
Excuse me, Wonderment, with all respect, that's just BS sophistry. Hillary represents Twin Towers Land, Ground Zero, New York.

None of those places you mentioned has a genuinely hawkish Jewish base constantly expressing politically coercive fear over the ever-present threat to Israel (with which by the way, I'm not always overcome with sympathy, given the way this "card" gets played).

Ironically, if Hillary was Jewish (as with 4 of your examples), she would have stood a better chance of being able to vote against the resolution without suffering terminal political circumstances.

So now you're just engaging in the same kind of honesty-challenged rhetoric as Senator Obama.

So, back to the Barack altar with you. Offer up a little more incense, cuz man, you're really going to need some prayers come November.

EW

Last edited by Eastwest; 04-25-2008 at 02:43 AM..
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  #72  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:53 AM
jh in sd jh in sd is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 154
Default Re: Can a black win? -- Crackerstanis vs Chardonnay Sippers

Jeralyn and Mark seem to be quite at odds in this diavlog. Anyone willing to weigh in on which one is the wingnut and the liar?
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  #73  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:55 AM
David Thomson David Thomson is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 100
Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

"To reclaim his foreign sounding name strikes me as a measure of integrity: he doesn't want to "pass" for white."

This is 2008---and not the 1950s. It was to Obama's financial and social advantage not to "pass for white." Guilt tripped whites can be more easily manipulated by an "authentic man of color." Going from Barry to Barack put a lot of money into his bank account.
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  #74  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:56 AM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
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Posts: 592
Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

RE Bloggin Noggin's:

Quote:
I don't object to your raising any issue you like about him, but I think it's quite a stretch to say that David Thomson and EastWest are "raising an issue for discussion" when they call Obama "Barry." Seems more like an expression of contempt.
Just to help you out with the above analysis, no, I'm not the least bit interested in discussing race relations. I deliberately diss Obama because he's a liar, plain and simple, not because he's black.

I'm inherently suspicious of anyone who treats any politician Left, Right, or Center, without a critical eye willing to tag BS as such where they see it so obviously present.

EW
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  #75  
Old 04-25-2008, 01:04 AM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
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Posts: 592
Default Re: Bloggin Noggin's EW Second-Tier Protestations

Re Bloggin Noggin's:

Quote:
Not so fast! ......

I know of no reputable psychotherapy......

Certainly Obama isn't the only one with a condescension problem.......

My point, to reiterate, was that even a Hillary supporter (one who isn't himself a Hillarybot) can make a distinction between support of Hillary and thinking that Ms. Merritt did a half-way decent job....
Wow, like you really thought I was seriously talking professional psychotherapy?

To clarify: I found both Diavlog participants hysterically emotional and allergic to rational sequiturs. The points brought up in my posts are my own and have nothing to do with that 50-minute bickering session.

As for the inferred "condescension problem," I don't find it a problem at all. Where I encounter uncritical cult mentalities, I don't feel the least bit apologetic for pointing out the stupidity of leaving one's critical faculties on the doorstep. After all, I'm not running for office and so don't have to play sycophant to get your vote. If I were to somehow meet the approval of Obama groupies, I'd consider it an insult.

Best,
EW

Last edited by Eastwest; 04-25-2008 at 02:56 AM..
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  #76  
Old 04-25-2008, 01:15 AM
hans gruber hans gruber is offline
 
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Posts: 106
Default Re: Can a black win? -- Crackerstanis vs Chardonnay Sippers

"Or to win back us white Chardonnay-sippers who have only recently discovered how thoroughly our own party despises us."

No, you have that all wrong. America despises you. So Democrats have to pretend to despise you to get elected. Don't take it personally.
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  #77  
Old 04-25-2008, 02:25 AM
CrowsMakeTools CrowsMakeTools is offline
 
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Posts: 54
Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
It might be an interesting study to go through various posts and tally the various disparaging names you use to refer to Senator McCain and yet here you are lecturing someone on name calling. How precious!
People who like McCain like him because they like what he represents to be his values: patriotism, a sense of personal honor, and independent thinking. I expect that his reputation for patiotism will be relatively untarnished in the next 6 months. I think that he is going to have a lot of explaining to do concerning the favors he has done for friends and contributors like Donald R. Diamond, and I don't think he is going to be very convincing.

I don't doubt that McCain has a deep sense of personal honor. My concern is that his belief in his own personal integrity and virtue has blinded him to the ways in which he has repeatedly compromised himself ethically in the name of service to his constituents. I think that this is nearly inevitable for someone who has been in the Senate for 21 years, most of the time in the majority party.

The Republicans had the same problem 12 years ago, the last time they nominated an old divorced and remarried western state Senator with a distinguished war record.

I think that we can look forward to seeing John McCain doing his erectile dysfunction ads, with Cindy smiling at his side, for Big Pharma, sometime after he retires from the Senate in 2011, in the third year of the first Obama adiministration.
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  #78  
Old 04-25-2008, 02:34 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 728
Default Re: The Coming Democratic Meltdown in Microcosm

First, this was an incredibly frustrating debate. I'm surprised Kleiman didn't blow up after the 1,000th time Merritt refused to understand the point that, just because Obama loses to Clinton in state X, it doesn't mean he'll lose to McCain in state X (though I suppose one should admit that it increases the likelihood that he'll lose state X to McCain). Her Michigan arguments were ridiculous. Her Florida point had a little more plausibility, but the notion that the results of a state where the candidates just debating on TV and not campaigning are as valid as they would be if they had campaigned in that state, seem to me fairly unlikely, prima facie.

I do think, though, that Clinton shouldn't drop out. First, her strategy of rendering Obama unelectable is one way for her to win. Second, I just don't see either of them losing to McCain. He seems like a pretty terrible candidate, so far at least. But elections are surprising things.
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  #79  
Old 04-25-2008, 03:38 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Take that second Umlaut out!

Quote:
You'll have to walk me through why it's racist.
His name is Barack. On his birth certificate. He was called Barry as a child. Now he prefers Barack. Calling him "Barry" Obama is as much of a slur as calling him Osama (which the right wing extremists have also done).

Remember Cassius Clay? Lew Alcindor?

Do you think it would be okay if you referred to Kareem Abdul Jabar as "Lew" Jabar or Mohamad Ali as "Cassius?"

It seems vile to me. But I really hope the Republicans keep doing it.
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  #80  
Old 04-25-2008, 03:39 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Obama called himself "Barry"

Quote:
I suspect that he reverted to Barack once he decided to become a race hustler in Chicago.
Calling him a "race hustler" is also racist.
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