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  #1  
Old 02-01-2010, 10:57 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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  #2  
Old 02-02-2010, 01:20 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Another good conversation, and, as I said with the Mark and Brink diavlog that posted right before this one, it's a pity we didn't have more like these a few months ago. Ah, well. We never fail to underestimate the forces of NO and the general populace's susceptibility to fear of change.

I really did enjoy the deep grasp both Jon and Tim have of the inside baseball aspects of getting legislation to pass. It was both instructive and enjoyable, kinda like being in an episode of The West Wing.

[Added] In the spirit of the latter paragraph, Tim's post (sidebar link repeated here) featuring the winners of his Commenter Contest makes for some entertaining reading.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 02-02-2010 at 01:47 AM..
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  #3  
Old 02-02-2010, 05:46 AM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default and the solution is .... gov run HC facilities!

The best way to provide HC to people w/o the means to pay a monthly, market rate HI premium is to have a network of government run or financed health care facilities. When a person needs HC that they cannot afford to pay for, they go to their local government run clinic/hospital and get the care they need. The government charges a market rate for its care. Depending on the recipients assets and income, payment for the care ranges from no charge to full price.

Having goverment facilities for the poor to go to will lower the price of private market care. Private providers no longer have to provide charity care to those who cannot pay. This lowers the cost of doing business for private market HC providers.

Whatever the cost of running a network of HC facilities, that cost must be lower than the fee for service medicare reimbursement model. How many patients can a Dr. treat in a day? Adjacent to every post office in the country is a government HC clinic. Patients are lined up and prepared for the Dr. to efficiently evaluate and treat them. Some sort of an assembly line is employed. Hundreds can be treated by a single Dr. in a day!

Consider that with a network of government HC facilities in place, medicare and medicaid can be eliminated. Many elderly can pay for their care on the private market. Those that cannot have the goverment facilities they can go to.

Last edited by DenvilleSteve; 02-02-2010 at 05:49 AM..
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  #4  
Old 02-02-2010, 10:24 PM
jimM47 jimM47 is offline
 
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Default Re: and the solution is .... gov run HC facilities!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
The best way to provide HC to people w/o the means to pay a monthly, market rate HI premium is to have a network of government run or financed health care facilities.
One way to think about government run or financed health care facilities is as a provider subsidy -- sure it is one arm of gov't financing another arm of gov't if the facilities are state run, but the conception still works. This is as opposed to a consumer subsidy, which would be payment for a person's health insurance costs in part or in whole. (The current medicare/medicaid program is a comprehensive consumer subsidy, albeit one with severe restrictions on where you can spend it -- just on the plan which provides services only through providers who will take the set rate.)

Similarly, think of public education as a provider subsidy and vouchers as a consumer subsidy. Our agricultural programs are also provider subsidies.

Thing is, provider subsidies tend to produce poorer outcomes than consumer subsidies. They leave less room for consumers to exit to better providers (if they exist), as much money doesn't always reach consumers, and there may be far fewer incentives for innovation.

The thing about your suggestion of a hospital next to every Post Office is that it is too suggestive -- the hospitals would be run as well as the Post Office, which is to say, not great. There's no reason to think the government has the expertise to run a health care facility better than the folks already running them.

I certainly like the idea of having an explicit subsidy to redistribute health care costs, rather than the hidden redistribution that now occurs as hospitals shift the cost of non-paying customers off onto others, but why create an LA Unified Health Care Provider District to compete with LA Unified School District, when you can just give out consumer subsidies to those who need them?
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  #5  
Old 02-03-2010, 10:08 AM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: and the solution is .... gov run HC facilities!

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Originally Posted by jimM47 View Post
... but why create an LA Unified Health Care Provider District to compete with LA Unified School District, when you can just give out consumer subsidies to those who need them?
I think there are a number of savings to be had from a gov run HC facilitity that serves an area and population similar to that served by a post office. Consider 10 general practioner doctors offices in an area, each of which accepts medicare for payment. Compared to 1 gov clinic that serves the same area.

First, the economy of scale. 10 small offices, each with receptionists, nurses, billing specialists, waiting rooms, equipment. Obviously more expensive than the single government clinic.

Second, the Drs. in each private practice have to compete on quality and level of service. Presumably, no Dr. fresh out of training has the experience and skill to run their own practice. In the government clinic, such recent graduate Drs. can be used. Cost advantage to the gov clinic.

Third, malpractice insurance. The government Dr. can't be sued. ( the feds set the rules ) The private Dr. can. Of course the gov HC network has standards in place, has a complaint dept, does what it can to correct its errors and fires incompetent Drs. Cost savings to the government.

Fourth, rationed care. At the gov clinic and hospital the patient gets good, rationed care. Only so many screenings for disease per period of time per patient. A max number of rehab slots. xx number of patients to a room while staying overnight in the hospital.

Drug savings. The gov HC facilities might have a rule that a high pct of the drugs it prescibes are available generically.

Sixth, salaried Drs at the government clinic vs for profit Drs serving patients and accepting medicare payment. As part of the rationing aspect of the government care, the salaried Dr. employed by the clinic has to see xx number of patients per day. Equivalent to the number seen by private practice, medicare reimbursed Drs. Very likely, the for profit medicare reimbursed Dr. is going to earn more than the salaried gov clinic equivalent.

The gov facility does not have to be one where you receive crappy, but low cost care. The facility charges from full market price to no charge depending on the means to pay of the recipient. One way to hold accountable those who run the facility is to keep track of the number of paying patients who use the facility.
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  #6  
Old 02-02-2010, 09:36 AM
Gravy Gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Maybe I misuderstood a few things, but I thought I heard it suggested to pass the Senate HCR bill in the House and then use reconciliation in the Sentate to bring it closer to the House version and at the same time someone mentioned that the Senate bill should appeal more to House Democratic moderates and conservatives. Won't the "threat" of amending via reconciliation make it harder to get these votes for the initial Senate bill? Assuming that the abortion problem can be finessed wouldn't it be less risky to simply say that it will be left for future congresses to take further action if they deem it wise? The nature of this reform leads me to believe that it is not very significant if the "tweaks" start happening now or wait until a new congress convenes in 2011. If you truly believe that HCR is popular with the public then you have a good election position of having done something now while campaigning that more could be done if more Democrats were to be elected in November.
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  #7  
Old 02-02-2010, 09:37 AM
tahitiwahini tahitiwahini is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Did anyone else have difficulty hearing this diavlog over all the whistling past the graveyard?
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  #8  
Old 02-02-2010, 01:04 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tahitiwahini View Post
Did anyone else have difficulty hearing this diavlog over all the whistling past the graveyard?
The wingnuts said HCR was dead in August but it ain't yet.

I hope they keep crowing, because a huge victory for progressives will be even sweeter when we see them eating their hats.
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  #9  
Old 02-02-2010, 01:38 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
The wingnuts said HCR was dead in August but it ain't yet.

I hope they keep crowing, because a huge victory for progressives will be even sweeter when we see them eating their hats.
And then he'll have to change his username to tahitiwhiny.
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  #10  
Old 02-02-2010, 01:58 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Hey, rain man

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
And then he'll have to change his username to tahitiwhiny.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wahine
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  #11  
Old 02-02-2010, 02:20 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hey, rain man

Quote:
Originally Posted by look View Post
Learn something new every day. Thanks.

And sorry, tw.
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  #12  
Old 02-02-2010, 04:18 PM
tahitiwahini tahitiwahini is offline
 
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Default Re: Hey, rain man

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Learn something new every day. Thanks.

And sorry, tw.
No offense taken, bjk.

I understand there are some people who believe ObamaCare is good policy. In the face of that it would be disproportionate of me, not to say churlish, to be the least upset with your misconception. Especially since, aside from a temporary ding to my vanity, it will have no long-term egregious consequences.

Peace,
tw
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  #13  
Old 02-02-2010, 03:03 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Yes, even the optimistic guy, Jon, said he would bet that it wouldn't happen, but that the odds were "a lot better" than 1 in 100. The path they sketched out seems almost preposterous to me, but I understand why so many people who have worked so hard for so long are clinging to straws.

Such an immense failure is hard to accept, especially considering the likely costs in upcoming elections. Obama has three years to recover, but House Reps and some Senators only have a few months.
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  #14  
Old 02-02-2010, 03:57 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
The path they sketched out seems almost preposterous to me, but I understand why so many people who have worked so hard for so long are clinging to straws.
What's so preposterous about Pass & Patch, or even just having the House of Representatives pass the Senate version of a bill they've already all voted for? From where I'm sitting, the only reason it isn't assumed that this will happen is the ongoing self-lobotomization of the institutional Democratic Party.
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  #15  
Old 02-02-2010, 04:00 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Quote:
What's so preposterous about Pass & Patch, or even just having the House of Representatives pass the Senate version of a bill they've already all voted for?
I'm just saying....don't hold your breath. Congressional cowardice trumps everything.
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  #16  
Old 02-02-2010, 05:21 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
What's so preposterous about Pass & Patch, or even just having the House of Representatives pass the Senate version of a bill they've already all voted for? From where I'm sitting, the only reason it isn't assumed that this will happen is the ongoing self-lobotomization of the institutional Democratic Party.
I think the WH has decided that a lot of heat and attention isn't helping the process. That doesn't mean they've given up.

I know the fans really want Obama to throw for the end zone on every down, and take it as a sign of surrender that he's not, but he's still plugging away at the running game. He's still out there talking about HCR.

Pass and patch was a good idea last year and it's still a good idea now. Mark Schmitt back in July:

Quote:
Some have suggested using reconciliation to install the rough skeleton of reform, and then fixing it later, but the act of using reconciliation in the first place is such a nuclear option that it is likely to poison the waters not just with the four semi-reasonable Republicans but also with the Democrats who are left out of the deal, and will be needed on subsequent legislation.

But what if Congress did it in reverse? Use the 60-vote Senate to pass whatever they can pass now -- we liberals will grumble but live with it -- and then use reconciliation next year to fix it. With the exchange structure and subsidies established, it wouldn't be hard to add an employer mandate, which would save money. With the rudiments of even a weak public plan in place, it wouldn't be complicated to expand it and modify its eligibility rules, in ways that might save or cost money but in either event, involve budget changes to an existing program rather than creating something new. Aggregating small changes over the next few years (on the model of the steady expansion of Medicaid engineered by Henry Waxman and others over the 1980s and 1990s) could non-controversially build the kind of robust and equitable system we dream of.

It's not ideal, and any political scheme based on do something now and hoping to fix it later faces the reality of all the partial reforms that litter the landscape. A plan that is so bad that it brings a backlash is more likely to be repealed than fixed. But it might just be that the big reform of health care can't be achieved all at once. And this would at least get the pieces in place for the next phase to move forward, with or without the current obstructionists.
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  #17  
Old 02-02-2010, 06:20 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

One keeps on hearing about the "reconciliation process" to fix the bill. The problem with this is technically the reconciliation process is limited in what can be considered under this rule. It is limited to revenue measures not policy. Yes I suppose that one can disguise almost anything as changing existing law in order to bring spending, revenues, or the debt-limit into conformity with the budget resolution, but given the direction of public will this be a survivable political path.
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  #18  
Old 02-07-2010, 06:48 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Quote:
Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
I think the WH has decided that a lot of heat and attention isn't helping the process. That doesn't mean they've given up.

I know the fans really want Obama to throw for the end zone on every down, and take it as a sign of surrender that he's not, but he's still plugging away at the running game. He's still out there talking about HCR.

Pass and patch was a good idea last year and it's still a good idea now. Mark Schmitt back in July:
Ezra Klein keeps the gridiron metaphor: Obama calls the next play for health-care reform


Quote:
Super Bowl Sunday isn't generally a hot day for health-care news. But if the Saints can be in the Super Bowl, then anything can happen. And so it did, with Barack Obama sitting down for an interview with Katie Couric to announce that he'll be inviting the Republican and Democratic leadership to a summit to sit down and work out the differences between their health-care plans. Oh, and C-SPAN is invited.

In conversations today, the White House was quick to emphasize a couple of points. First, they're not starting over. Legislation has already passed the House of Representatives and the United States Senate. That's not to be taken lightly, and the White House isn't taking it lightly. "The President has made it clear that he’s adamant about passing comprehensive reform similar to the bills passed by the House and the Senate," one official said.

But before that legislation gets to the president's desk, modifications are needed to bring the House and Senate bills into closer alignment, and that means there's time to hear more ideas. Or so goes the story.

I'd expect to see some concessions made to Republicans at the summit. I'd also expect the president to emphasize how many of their ideas are already incorporated into the legislation. But this isn't about the ideas. The White House isn't holding a study session because they're worried they don't have the right answers for the final test.

This is, first and foremost, about defusing the lines of attack that have scared the hell out of Democratic legislators. If you talk to people on the Hill, there's relatively little concern about the substance of the likely compromise, but there's enormous anxiety over the public's belief that the bill is thick with noxious deals, which is fed by the idea that the process has been hidden from the American people. After all, people reason, if the bill was so good, why wouldn't they let C-SPAN into the negotiations? The White House hopes this summit will be a clean break with that narrative.

Second, and more importantly, this creates a next step for health-care reform. The House and the Senate have not been able to agree on a path forward. The president, of course, cannot hold a vote for them. But by setting this summit, he's bought them a few weeks to figure out how to hold a vote themselves. That won't be easy, but it'll be easier with the White House summit giving some structure and narrative to an effort that had collapsed into murky chaos.

For weeks, congressional Democrats have been calling for more leadership from the White House. Now they've got it. The president will set the agenda, as only he can. But that doesn't take the ultimate burden off House and Senate Democrats So much as Obama can call the next play, he can't run this into the end zone for them.
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  #19  
Old 02-07-2010, 06:58 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Quote:
Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
Ezra Klein keeps the gridiron metaphor: Obama calls the next play for health-care reform
Hmmm ... interesting. Thanks for the link.

One small aspect that's kind of delicious: It being SBSunday, the sort of crowd that wants nothing more than to sit on their couches in front of their giant teevees while stuffing their faces with nachos and Keystone Light (i.e., The Red State Trike Force) is going to hate when Erick the Son of Erick and other self-appointed field-marshals start trying to rouse them to action.
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  #20  
Old 02-02-2010, 07:11 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Yes, even the optimistic guy, Jon, said he would bet that it wouldn't happen, but that the odds were "a lot better" than 1 in 100. The path they sketched out seems almost preposterous to me, but I understand why so many people who have worked so hard for so long are clinging to straws.

Such an immense failure is hard to accept, especially considering the likely costs in upcoming elections. Obama has three years to recover, but House Reps and some Senators only have a few months.
Putting aside how cool it is to see the democrat party fail in such a large way, how could Obama and the other party leaders have been so delusional? They genuinely believe the key to American business growth and improved productivity is for no Americans to be without HI. And nowadays they think that deficit spending is necessary to pull an economy out of a recession. ( Obama refered to the consensus of economists holding this view when replying to Paul Ryan at the republican retreat last week. ) Democrats are very far off the mark when it comes to understanding how a national economy works.
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  #21  
Old 02-02-2010, 02:09 PM
Gina Gina is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

The Country no longer is willing even to consider the stated goals of "Health care reform", and is especially wary of the size, degree of intrusion, lobbied effects, etc. of the currently passed versions.


Why not introduce and pass one page legislation which states that:

1.) A department of HEW will buy all defaulted US medical debt from US collection agencies, and turn the debt it buys over to the IRS for collection along with taxes.

2.) The IRS will waive collection fully or partially according to the income/status of each individual and his/her dependents as set by Congress


That's it!

The advantages of this proposal include:

1.) No change to existing law

2.) Anyone... Anyone can walk into any doctor's office or hospital and receive the maximum treatment recommended. Any one who can pay cash will pay cash. All those with insurance will be supported by their insurance, and pay their deductibles and co payments as agreed. Those who are members of cooperatives (such as Kaiser Permanente in California), will continue as members. All of these existing groups will continue their present arrangements and full personal responsibility.

But, if any bill remains unpaid, then it will referred to a collection agency, at the end of six months, the collection agency can sell it to the department of HEW.

The Department of HEW will turn the unpaid bills over to the IRS. The IRS will instantly and automatically compare the BIlls against the taxpayers status and either:

for the affluent; add interest and demand payment in full along with taxes

for the poor; demand payment of 10% along with taxes

for those selected by congress; waive all payment ( this last group should include all combat veterans)


3.) over time this system will allow the federal government to withdraw altogether from providing medical treatment. For example, All veterans, especially combat veterans, through designation by Congress, could use this system to go to any hospital or doctor, and seek and obtain any treatment available. New, specialized, but private hospitals would spring up to deal with each of the aspects of recovering from military service. Yet all doctors would be available to the veterans, so that they could continue to see their family doctors and not be forced into the current VA system.

4.) The Cost to the Federal government would be the amount of debt waived, plus the cost of running the department of HEW and additional staff/ equipment/space at the IRS. The savings will mount up as the Government withdraws as a healthcare provider and employer

But this proposal would enable everyone to get all of the care they need, and all of the care providers to give all that they can without fear of non payment.


This could be Obama's sword for the [Gordian] Healthcare reform knot
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  #22  
Old 02-02-2010, 05:24 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

I don't understand clay's post. I mean, I understand the crass demagoguery of the term "wingnut", but I don't understand why the fact that people predicted the death of health care reform in August...therefore means anything. Since healthcare still hasn't passed, I don't see how they have yet to be proven wrong? You may say circumstances have changed since then, and they obviously have via Scott Brown, but they were also predicting the death of a different bill in August. Namely, a bill with some sort of a public option. I only see vindication in that prediction.
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  #23  
Old 02-02-2010, 05:40 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
I don't understand clay's post. I mean, I understand the crass demagoguery of the term "wingnut", but I don't understand why the fact that people predicted the death of health care reform in August...therefore means anything. Since healthcare still hasn't passed, I don't see how they have yet to be proven wrong? You may say circumstances have changed since then, and they obviously have via Scott Brown, but they were also predicting the death of a different bill in August. Namely, a bill with some sort of a public option. I only see vindication in that prediction.
The House passed a HCR in November and the Senate in December. Anybody who said it was dead in August was wrong. It may yet die but it hasn't yet.

I'm no expert on parliamentary procedure but I'm sure they have until the end of this congressional term to finish the job. It ain't over til the fat lady sings.
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  #24  
Old 02-02-2010, 06:34 PM
tahitiwahini tahitiwahini is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

On the other hand, sometimes it's over when the fat lady develops laryngitis.
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  #25  
Old 02-02-2010, 06:35 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by tahitiwahini View Post
On the other hand, sometimes it's over when the fat lady develops laryngitis.
Will you be here all week?
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  #26  
Old 02-02-2010, 06:37 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
I'm no expert on parliamentary procedure but I'm sure they have until the end of this congressional term to finish the job. It ain't over til the fat lady sings.
I don't think you understand that the country is out of money. People are not going to accept the medicare and medicaid spending cuts needed to extend coverage to all the unemployed and low income workers (without increasing spending ). Which means HCR makes the deficit even higher than it is now.

If the republicans can only drop the tax cut talk and put a lid on the WOT, we would have the makings of governing majority for a long time to come. Democrats stand for spending and debt. Republicans are the party of the balanced budget and dramatic spending cuts that target constituents of the democrat party ( that is where the spending is ).
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  #27  
Old 02-02-2010, 07:16 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
I don't think you understand that the country is out of money. People are not going to accept the medicare and medicaid spending cuts needed to extend coverage to all the unemployed and low income workers (without increasing spending ). Which means HCR makes the deficit even higher than it is now.

If the republicans can only drop the tax cut talk and put a lid on the WOT, we would have the makings of governing majority for a long time to come. Democrats stand for spending and debt. Republicans are the party of the balanced budget and dramatic spending cuts that target constituents of the democrat party ( that is where the spending is ).
You want to stay in your fantasy world or do you want to subject those claims to actual facts?
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  #28  
Old 02-02-2010, 07:36 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
You want to stay in your fantasy world or do you want to subject those claims to actual facts?
Do you read the newspaper? Obama announced his 2011 budget the other day. The projected deficit is $1.6 trillion. Here is a recent post from an economy pundit: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/our...oom-2010-02-02

The country is out of money. Over spending does not grow the economy like Obama's consensus of economists think. The democrat party does not work when its politicians run on a platform of which interest group has its entitlement program cut the most. Dare we say - "game over"?
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  #29  
Old 02-02-2010, 07:59 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
Do you read the newspaper? Obama announced his 2011 budget the other day. The projected deficit is $1.6 trillion. Here is a recent post from an economy pundit: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/our...oom-2010-02-02

The country is out of money. Over spending does not grow the economy like Obama's consensus of economists think. The democrat party does not work when its politicians run on a platform of which interest group has its entitlement program cut the most. Dare we say - "game over"?
You said "the country is out of money." That's obviously not true. You want to back down? Or do you want me to look up the numbers for you?
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  #30  
Old 02-02-2010, 08:00 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
You said "the country is out of money." That's obviously not true. You want to back down? Or do you want me to look up the numbers for you?
Clay, please look up the numbers.
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  #31  
Old 02-02-2010, 09:22 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

I would say that having to borrow about 1/3 of what you spend, because you don't have the cash, is by definition out of money. Not out of credit yet but a few years of this and that too is likely to be in short supply.
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  #32  
Old 02-02-2010, 11:43 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
I would say that having to borrow about 1/3 of what you spend, because you don't have the cash, is by definition out of money. Not out of credit yet but a few years of this and that too is likely to be in short supply.
You're forgetting that they have plenty of paper and plenty of ink. It's the same as a housewife insisting she can't be overdrawn on her bank account because she has plenty of checks left. I guess there was even a member of congress this week who (the disasterous stimulus plan notwithstanding) is still insisting we need to spend our way out of our job and market-killing deficit problems.

And bjkeefe and clay are absolutely correct, Obamacare is not dead yet. These people do not care one whit for deficits, lowering the quality of care or killing the markets. All they care about is putting more people on the dole and gaining control of the health care purse strings for political power.

They've already proven they will lie, graft and cut unfair backroom deals. This could be their last chance for universal government-provided health care without any tort reform or common sense insurance law revision. They seriously want to bankrupt the insurance companies. Watch them scheme over the coming weeks.
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  #33  
Old 02-02-2010, 11:57 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
You're forgetting that they have plenty of paper and plenty of ink. It's the same as a housewife insisting she can't be overdrawn on her bank account because she has plenty of checks left.
No, it's not. Among other reasons the analogy fails is this: the housewife has a limited time in which she is expected to be capable of obtaining more income, and a limited number of ways she is expected to be able to generate it. The United States is not assumed, by its creditors or its citizens, to be nearly so bounded by those same constraints. While I agree we can't borrow or print money without limit, the medium- and long-term assumptions about the two entities are fundamentally different.

Quote:
I guess there was even a member of congress this week who (the disasterous stimulus plan notwithstanding) is still insisting we need to spend our way out of our job and market-killing deficit problems.
It can't be that disastrous if you have yet to learn how to spell the word, for one thing, and for another, just asserting that it's a disaster does not make it so. Further, there are plenty of economists who know far more than the two of us who are firmly convinced, and can make very solid arguments, that it is pigheadedly myopic to worry about deficits when in the middle of a serious recession.

The rest of your post is boilerplate raving straight out of the Alex Jones forums or someplace equally damp, so I'll leave it there.
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  #34  
Old 02-03-2010, 12:50 AM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Depends on her credit worthiness (bond rating) and the depth of her spouses pockets (taxpayers) I suppose. Seem fairly analogues to me.

P.S. I hope i spelled everthing right here because we all knpw how germain that is to the point being made.
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Old 02-03-2010, 08:43 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
Depends on her credit worthiness (bond rating) and the depth of her spouses pockets (taxpayers) I suppose. Seem fairly analogues to me.
No, I really don't think so. You can always say one thing is like another, but because you can draw some metaphorical parallels does not mean that the analogy is really all that useful. Comparing the national budget to a household budget makes for a nice talking point for a politician who wants to mouth platitudes about fiscal responsibility on the campaign trail, but the two entities are, as I said, and as clay illustrates, fundamentally different.

Second, the US is not in the situation of having a $0 balance in its checking account. It has trillions in income, and trillions in outlays. That the latter is a little higher than the former is not the same as being flat out of money. Sure, it can't go on like this forever, but no one -- including this tax-and-spend liberal -- is advocating that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
P.S. I hope i spelled everthing right here because we all knpw how germain that is to the point being made.
Well ... since you asked: spouse's, not spouses (since you want to indicate possession, not pluralization); creditworthiness, not credit worthiness; analogous, not analogues; I, not i; everything, not everthing; know, not knpw; and germane, not germain.

y/w.
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  #36  
Old 02-03-2010, 02:07 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

Financial advice from some anonymous commenter on a blog. No wonder the left thinks President Obama's budget is sound!
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  #37  
Old 02-03-2010, 02:27 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
Financial advice from some anonymous commenter on a blog. No wonder the left thinks President Obama's budget is sound!
I'm confused. To which "anonymous" commenter do you refer? And what advice?
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  #38  
Old 02-03-2010, 03:35 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I'm confused. To which "anonymous" commenter do you refer? And what advice?
I think he means "harkin." And the advice would be: the "stimulus plan" is "disasterous."
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  #39  
Old 02-03-2010, 03:40 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

I'm not the one that linked to the paragon of financial advice it was you so don't play idiot please!
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  #40  
Old 02-03-2010, 03:59 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Health Care Reform on Life Support (Jon Cohn & Tim Noah)

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I'm not the one that linked ...
"I'm not the one who linked," you mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
I'm not the one that linked to the paragon of financial advice it was you so don't play idiot please!
Run-on sentence. Lose 10 points.

And as far as "idiot" goes ... well, you're the one who thought it was "financial advice." Let's just leave it there.
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