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  #81  
Old 08-01-2011, 05:39 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
But I think a lot of our lefty friends yell Nazi because they're overreacting in an attempt to protect good, loyal, hard working Americans who happen to be Muslim, from feeling ostracized by blanket statements about Muslims. And in this, I certainly think their heart is in the right place, don't you?
If that was the extent of it. However, for many on the Left, it is fear of "the Other." Except that the role of the Other has been filled by their domestic political opposition. Five minutes of DailyKos will show this in abundance.
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  #82  
Old 08-01-2011, 06:19 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
But I think a lot of our lefty friends yell Nazi because they're overreacting in an attempt to protect good, loyal, hard working Americans who happen to be Muslim, from feeling ostracized by blanket statements about Muslims. And in this, I certainly think their heart is in the right place, don't you?
Very much agreed on this. Then again, it's those damn good intentions that are so scary...
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  #83  
Old 08-01-2011, 06:27 AM
simoom simoom is offline
 
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Default Michael B. Dougherty meet Mollie Ziegler Hemingway

Michael B. Dougherty:
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/376...0:45&out=49:34
Quote:
"I can't think of a single intellectual that would say that, you know, well, if European nations allowed just a little bit more talk about immigration policy they wouldn't get this..."
Mollie Ziegler Hemingway:
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/378...8:45&out=58:35
Quote:
"I have no worry about engaging these discusions in the public square, and I'd much rather do that than just send them off to the fever swamps where they get more riled up and more freaked out and feel more disenfranchised and feel more like they need to resort to horrific terror."
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  #84  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:18 AM
dieter dieter is offline
 
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Default Nazi violence was a public sector undertaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane1976 View Post
The people who spread hatred may not also recommend violence, but they contribute to a climate of hatred that ultimately leads to violence. Antisemitic violence didn't come out of nowhere over night in 1930's Germany and elsewhere. There was a climate of hatred created over a period of years, decades through hateful rhetoric.
The antisemitic violence did not come out of some nebulous "climate of hatred". The violence was orchestrated by the government and the governing party. All of the antisemitic propaganda before and after the Nazi takeover did apparently not produce significant spontaneous outbreaks of hatred, so the Nazi operatives had to dress up as civilians and do the Kristallnacht pogroms themselves.

The Nazi party also had considerable elite backing and funding, mostly because it was perceived as a lesser evil vis--vis communism.

None of this has any parallel with a couple of bloggers who are concerned about Islam and a lone nut, who was partially inspired by them for his manifesto.

Anders Behring Breivik demands that Muslims convert to Christianity before 2020, or leave. Those who want to leave would receive one kg of Gold as compensation per family member. Nowhere does Breivik designate Muslims as terrorist targets. His targets, categorized from A-C, are secular political categories. Breivik, in other words, primarily hates leftists and elites. Pamela Geller and other certainly do too, but that is hardly germane to them.

My hunch is that his main motivation though is the attempt to live through a real-life action adventure game.
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  #85  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:37 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
But what is this about the last gasp of the West? What does that mean?
Something about sauerkraut.
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  #86  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:39 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
It means that the Left cannot tolerate the slightest deviation from the script. Even as the budgets of bloated entitlement societies bring the building down around us, even as the vanguard of Jihad slaughter the citizenry, even as the culture erodes and relativism rules, even the slightest complaint is met with screams of "Nazi!"
There was plenty of screaming about Nazis from the right when there was an attempt to extend health care to somewhat more people. The end of the world as we know it, or something like that.

The victim game is something everyone plays.
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  #87  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:48 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post

But I think a lot of our lefty friends yell Nazi because they're overreacting in an attempt to protect good, loyal, hard working Americans who happen to be Muslim, from feeling ostracized by blanket statements about Muslims. And in this, I certainly think their heart is in the right place, don't you?
Yes, that's right. And the same applies to the millions of Muslims throughout the world who have nothing to do with terrorists or violence.

There isn't much political or popular debate when it comes to terrorism and the will to fight it. The differences are about not blaming an entire culture for the acts of the few.
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  #88  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:49 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Great debate by two very civil people. Great job by both--this is how it should be done.

Molly wins it, hands down.
Not at all. Wajahat had the better arguments all around.
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  #89  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:54 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Great post Diane.

Obviously opinions are divided by camp. I think Wajahat did a great job pointing out the road from hatred to more hatred to violence by the most radicalized (or unbalanced) few.

This discussion took place along similar lines with the Arizona shooting.

Public debate, discussions, opinions and dissent are alright. But fear mongering and hate speech, lies and agitating, are not.
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  #90  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:07 AM
SJH71 SJH71 is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Ok, so Breivik was inspired by certain American bloggers, and therefore, although they are not directly responsible, those American bloggers and those who follow them really ought to introspect and question their own beliefs and rhetoric, because they created the "ideological infrastructure" for Breivik.

Al Qaeda is inspired by the Koran. Therefore, although they are not directly responsible, Muslims should introspect and question the Koran and their own beliefs and rhetoric, because they created the "ideological infrastructure" for al Qaeda?
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  #91  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:54 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJH71 View Post
Ok, so Breivik was inspired by certain American bloggers, and therefore, although they are not directly responsible, those American bloggers and those who follow them really ought to introspect and question their own beliefs and rhetoric, because they created the "ideological infrastructure" for Breivik.

Al Qaeda is inspired by the Koran. Therefore, although they are not directly responsible, Muslims should introspect and question the Koran and their own beliefs and rhetoric, because they created the "ideological infrastructure" for al Qaeda?
I think that says it pretty well. Although I wouldn't quite compare Muslims to Americans bloggers. It would be more accurate to compare Islamist Muslims who don't call for violence but speak of the West in overblown rhetoric and hyperbole that generalizes its entirety from the actions of a subset of current and historical figures.
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  #92  
Old 08-01-2011, 01:27 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
It means that the Left cannot tolerate the slightest deviation from the script. Even as the budgets of bloated entitlement societies bring the building down around us, even as the vanguard of Jihad slaughter the citizenry, even as the culture erodes and relativism rules, even the slightest complaint is met with screams of "Nazi!"
Just to put this in clearer terms, you are claiming that there is some group referred to as "the Left" which: (a) supports bloated entitlement spending*; (b) supports killing people in the same of fundamentalist Islam; and (c) are moral relativists who support the "erosion" of our culture (do you mean porn? the Kardashian shows? NPR?). If there is anyone who falls into such a group, it seems to me that this person (or these people) are quite confused.

However, in that "Left" is also used in other ways, including for the Dems and as a term for people here, I'd like to know to what extent this is supposed to be an accusation which applies to anyone on bloggingheads or any past 'heads. After all, if I'm being accused of being in favor of slaughtering people for Allah simply because I would rather not privatize Medicare and listen to NPR sometimes (or, I dunno, went to a play that had nudity in it), I'd like to know.

*I wonder what percentage of Americans support what you define as bloated entitlements, i.e., Soc Sec and Medicare roughly the way they currently exist? If this is "the Left," that group includes not just mainstream Dems, but a whole lot of Republicans. Thus, your conflating of these people with "the Left" and the other views identified is particularly weird. It's certainly not true that there's an inability for those who want to cut entitlements to express their views, however.
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  #93  
Old 08-01-2011, 02:53 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Nazi violence was a public sector undertaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieter View Post
The antisemitic violence did not come out of some nebulous "climate of hatred". The violence was orchestrated by the government and the governing party. All of the antisemitic propaganda before and after the Nazi takeover did apparently not produce significant spontaneous outbreaks of hatred, so the Nazi operatives had to dress up as civilians and do the Kristallnacht pogroms themselves.

The Nazi party also had considerable elite backing and funding, mostly because it was perceived as a lesser evil vis--vis communism.

None of this has any parallel with a couple of bloggers who are concerned about Islam and a lone nut, who was partially inspired by them for his manifesto.
Thanks for some rational perspective.
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  #94  
Old 08-01-2011, 04:04 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default I have a problem with this conversation

Actually, a couple of problems.

Firstly, the section where Mollie was arguing that bigots ought to be engaged and Wajahat was arguing that they ought to be marginalized was quite frustrating because it seemed that they were having a couple of different discussions at once. Mollie says that when elites refuse to discuss Islam for fear of engendering a backlash they basically cede space that could be used for fruitful discussion to the Pamela Gellers of the world. She is obviously right on this point, and it actually makes one sort of wish for the days after 9/11 when you would go into Barnes and Nobles and see tables stacked with concise histories of the Middle East and "Islam for Dummies". It's very odd that seemed more possible to have a fruitful national conversation right after 9/11 than it does now, and in my opinion this speaks both to the general fairness of the American people and the complete moral bankruptcy of the Republican party, which dutifully went along with the flow as long as George Bush was calling Islam a "religion of peace", generally relegating the Spencers and Gellers to the fringes, but as soon as a Democrat (whose middle name is "Hussein", what luck!) was in the Oval Office seized on Islamofearmongering as a fresh new wedge issue. I seriously doubt that any actual fruitful discussion of, say, the compatibility of Islam and democracy or Islam and the separation of church and state, which might actually be interesting, will be permitted until this is no longer a partisan issue.

But Mollie is pretty much wrong when she says that the "concerns" raised by Geller et al. ought to be addressed by the mainstream media. I just went to Geller's blog, and nearly all the outrages on her front page are either totally ridiculous (Al-Jazeera being broadcast in New York! An Australian Muslim threatening to bomb something on Facebook! US troops told not to eat in public during Ramadan in Muslim countries!) or actually serious but framed in such a stupid way that it's impossible to squeeze anything actually interesting or useful from it (a post on the conscientious objector plot guy devolving into a bizarre Arabic lesson, a post about two men executed by Hamas for collaborating with Israel being used to snipe at Code Pink). There are a million better people in the world to raise these concerns or critique certain aspects of Islam who do not buy into Geller's conspiratorial ideology.

And this is the other problem I had with this diavlog -- for a conversation about Breivik's manifesto, there was an awful lot of talk about Muslims. Breivik's attacks were not directed towards Muslims but towards the governing party of Norway, and they shouldn't be seen as a symptom of a problem that Islam is having with the West, or that Europe is having with immigrants, but as a symptom of a Western problem about national identity, about modernity, about the meaning of democracy and so forth. Breivik's primary enemies were the people he saw as traitors to the nation, and those were the people he killed last week. Similarly, Pamela Geller spends as much time fulminating about the liberal media as she does hating about Muslims, and Mark Steyn uses the "Islamicization" of Europe essentially as a metaphor for Europe's decline, by which he essentially meant more cultural permissiveness and less inclination to fight in wars. And the thing they all have in common is this idea that the nation is being betrayed by a decadent elite -- not just the economic or political interests of the people making up the nation, but the actual definition of the nation itself. Obviously, the vast majority of people who have this eliminationist view don't commit violence, and again, just so I don't get accused by Mollie of being authoritarian, I'm not suggesting that they ought to be forcibly shut up by the government, but this tendency is a creepy and unhealthy one that is bad for democracy and it ought to be recognized as such.
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  #95  
Old 08-01-2011, 04:15 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Quote:
The issue is that his religious beliefs did not inspire him to do what he did, and there is also nothing in the teachings of Jesus that can reasonable be interpreted to support violent acts.
I give you Matthew 27:25, only the most notorious Bible verse used to support violent acts.

Quote:
27:22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
27:23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
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  #96  
Old 08-01-2011, 04:29 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

Excellent post, kezboard. I especially liked this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
Breivik's primary enemies were the people he saw as traitors to the nation, and those were the people he killed last week. Similarly, Pamela Geller spends as much time fulminating about the liberal media as she does hating about Muslims, and Mark Steyn uses the "Islamicization" of Europe essentially as a metaphor for Europe's decline, by which he essentially meant more cultural permissiveness and less inclination to fight in wars. And the thing they all have in common is this idea that the nation is being betrayed by a decadent elite -- not just the economic or political interests of the people making up the nation, but the actual definition of the nation itself.
Anne Appelbaum of Slate pointed out that the attacks on Obama by the Tea Party and the American far right have something in common with Breivik's fulminations against multiculturalism etc. etc. etc.

http://www.slate.com/id/2300099/
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  #97  
Old 08-01-2011, 04:55 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
And this is the other problem I had with this diavlog -- for a conversation about Breivik's manifesto, there was an awful lot of talk about Muslims. Breivik's attacks were not directed towards Muslims but towards the governing party of Norway, and they shouldn't be seen as a symptom of a problem that Islam is having with the West, or that Europe is having with immigrants, but as a symptom of a Western problem about national identity, about modernity, about the meaning of democracy and so forth. Breivik's primary enemies were the people he saw as traitors to the nation, and those were the people he killed last week. Similarly, Pamela Geller spends as much time fulminating about the liberal media as she does hating about Muslims, and Mark Steyn uses the "Islamicization" of Europe essentially as a metaphor for Europe's decline, by which he essentially meant more cultural permissiveness and less inclination to fight in wars. And the thing they all have in common is this idea that the nation is being betrayed by a decadent elite -- not just the economic or political interests of the people making up the nation, but the actual definition of the nation itself. Obviously, the vast majority of people who have this eliminationist view don't commit violence, and again, just so I don't get accused by Mollie of being authoritarian, I'm not suggesting that they ought to be forcibly shut up by the government, but this tendency is a creepy and unhealthy one that is bad for democracy and it ought to be recognized as such.
Very interesting and thoughtful post. Obviously you are correct that the real issue with Brievik is not Muslims but leftists.

I'd like to hear more from you, if you care to elaborate, on why it is creepy, unhealthy, and bad for democracy, for an American to believe that those values which make his country or culture great, and as such constitute the identity of his culture or country, is being betrayed by a decadent elite?
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  #98  
Old 08-01-2011, 05:08 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Excellent post, kezboard. I especially liked this:



Anne Appelbaum of Slate pointed out that the attacks on Obama by the Tea Party and the American far right have something in common with Breivik's fulminations against multiculturalism etc. etc. etc.

http://www.slate.com/id/2300099/

I actually went to that link because, although I found your take away from the article to be preposterous, I had to see if the article actually said this. I know it's common in the media for someone to call the average Americans that make up the Tea Party, hateful racist bigoted suicide bombing terrorists while so called journalists nod thoughtfully, but I'm still surprised by it.

Anyway--in reading the article I saw that Appelbaum didn't even mention the Tea Party and didn't have anything to say about 'the American far right' in general. She was talking about something she called 'illigitimists', which she acknowledged has come from both the left and the right in America. (Did you know the left in America has something in common with the Marxist illigitimists Appelbaum talks about ---and that this doesn't mean squat in any meaningful way?).

Anyway, Appelbaum is talking about birthers, which she did not identify at all with the Tea Party or with "the American Far Right" in general.

You did that all on your own.

Last edited by whburgess; 08-01-2011 at 05:14 PM..
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  #99  
Old 08-01-2011, 05:18 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I actually went to that link because, although I found your take away from the article to be preposterous, I had to see if the article actually said this. I know it's common in the media for someone to call the average Americans that make up the Tea Party, hateful racist bigoted suicide bombing terrorists while so called journalists nod thoughtfully, but I'm still surprised by it.

Anyway--in reading the article I saw that Appelbaum didn't even mention the Tea Party and didn't have anything to say about 'the American far right' in general. She was talking about something she called 'illigitimists', which she acknowledged has come from both the left and the right in America. (Did you know the left in America has something in common with the Marxist illigitimists Appelbaum talks about ---and that this doesn't mean squat in any meaningful way?).

Anyway, Appelbaum is talking about birthers, which she did not identify at all with the Tea Party or with "the American Far Right" in general.

You did that all on your own.
Yes, I know I did that on my own. Because, unlike you, I don't see much difference between birthers, tea partiers, the American far right and other imbeciles. I suspect that you are not one of them, but who knows?
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  #100  
Old 08-01-2011, 05:34 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Yes, I know I did that on my own. Because, unlike you, I don't see much difference between birthers, tea partiers, the American far right and other imbeciles. I suspect that you are not one of them, but who knows?
So, you get license to ridicule others for your own misrepresentations?
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  #101  
Old 08-01-2011, 05:44 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
So, you get license to ridicule others for your own misrepresentations?
What misrepresentations? What ridicule?

I think Appelbaum's comparison is perfectly reasonable. In fact, I think that there are significant numbers of Americans, and perhaps even some members of Congress, who are every bit as stupid and bigoted as the Norvegian madman. But no doubt less crazy. I doubt, in any case, that they will go beserk (Viking expression).
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  #102  
Old 08-01-2011, 05:55 PM
dieter dieter is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

I agree with the second half of your analysis, but I've got a different take on the first half.

It seems to me that many of the memes and factoids that were deemed to be islamophobic and bigoted have entered into the mainstream. Karen Armstrong-type islamophilia has mostly died out. I remember vividly that progressives and even hardcore anti-christian atheists really believed that Islam was actually a religion of peace, women's rights, tolerance and logic and much more enlightened than Christianity. This embrace of Islam actually increased after 9/11 and the islam apologists were busily quoting the quran on their behalf. Later, their untenable position eroded to the position that Islam was unknowable, diverse, nebulous and arbitrary. Now it is pretty much understood that Islam is at the very least a very conservative religion. This development is more advanced in Europe than in the US, but the trajectory is the same.

The single issue anti-Islam bloggers and writers can't declare victory however, lest they would be out of their jobs and lose their purpose in life. So they've actually increased in shrillness and exaggerate their alleged persecution.

The anti-anti-Islam types have pretty much stopped arguing about substance and even admit upfront to many problematic aspects of real existing Islam and real existing islamic societies. Instead they critique the tone, shrillness and activism of the anti-Islam activists.

I haven't seen anything knew or substantive coming out of this debate for at least two or three years.

Let's end with a positive note. It appears that a new generation of Orientalists, Arabists and Islam scholars is emerging that once again is willing to analyse the origins of Islam critically, with an enlightened spirit and utilizing the historical-critical method rather than the obscurantist postmodern style of the Karen Armstrongs of the world. This kind of research is the best hope we have towards enlightenment in the muslim world.
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  #103  
Old 08-01-2011, 05:56 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
What misrepresentations? What ridicule?
Equating birthers with Tea Partiers isn't a misrepresentation? I know you said that you don't see much of a difference, but that doesn't make it true.

"I suspect that you are not one of them (an imbecile, birther, etc.), but who knows?"
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  #104  
Old 08-01-2011, 06:09 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Mollie not only underplays the influence of Islamophobes, she wants more people like them in the general media. She doesn't think there's enough. The woman is out of her mind.
she didn't say it directly, but she implied that David Duke should be on TV more, because we don't want racism driven underground.
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  #105  
Old 08-01-2011, 06:14 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Equating birthers with Tea Partiers isn't a misrepresentation? I know you said that you don't see much of a difference, but that doesn't make it true.

"I suspect that you are not one of them (an imbecile, birther, etc.), but who knows?"
Haven't we heard all of these absurdities in the past year or so?

Obama = unamerican, socialist, multiculturalist, secret Muslim

What distinguishes this discourse from that of Breivik?
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  #106  
Old 08-01-2011, 06:55 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Please, next diavlog should be well rounded discusssion on the budget deal.
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  #107  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:23 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Haven't we heard all of these absurdities in the past year or so?

Obama = unamerican, socialist, multiculturalist, secret Muslim

What distinguishes this discourse from that of Breivik?
Yes, but the article didn't say that and thus you misrepresented it. You were also rude to whburgess, who merely pointed out this fact. It's not a really big deal, but because you're evading responsibility for it, it seems bigger than it should be.
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  #108  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:29 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

Great post.
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  #109  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:36 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Yes, I know I did that on my own. Because, unlike you, I don't see much difference between birthers, tea partiers, the American far right and other imbeciles. I suspect that you are not one of them, but who knows?
No greater banner for ignorance than pride. Let that flag fly, Florian.
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  #110  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:41 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by dieter View Post
I remember vividly that progressives and even hardcore anti-christian atheists really believed that Islam was actually a religion of peace, women's rights, tolerance and logic and much more enlightened than Christianity.
If this is supposed to refer to belief in the US, your memory is wrong. kez is right that the interest in and even the positive view of (according to some polls) Islam actually increased post 9/11, largely due to Americans wanting to understand and also George Bush's response about not blaming Muslims in general, but there was never a general view that Islam was a religion of peace or the rest. (As I keep saying, the notion of a religion of peace is silly. Religions are made up of people who interpret the religion in a variety of ways.)

Post-9/11, there were some people who said some stupid things about the terrorists and Muslims in general, basically assuming that they shared the criticism of the world or the US that these people (typically far left types) had. They were never much accepted in the US, though. For example, TNR had a field day focusing on the most extreme such statements for a "wall of shame."

And this post-9/11 view probably relied on Bernard Lewis more than anyone for its understanding.

Quote:
Now it is pretty much understood that Islam is at the very least a very conservative religion.
Given, you know, Iran and the hostage crisis, I think that's the view that people in the US have generally grown up with since the '80s. For other examples of the American cultural view of Islam as a religion of peace, see Back to the Future.
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  #111  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:44 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Yes, but the article didn't say that and thus you misrepresented it. You were also rude to whburgess, who merely pointed out this fact. It's not a really big deal, but because you're evading responsibility for it, it seems bigger than it should be.
Florian seems to be very insecure.
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  #112  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:29 PM
Hal Morris Hal Morris is offline
 
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Default Re: Nazi violence was a public sector undertaking

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Originally Posted by dieter View Post
The antisemitic violence did not come out of some nebulous "climate of hatred". The violence was orchestrated by the government and the governing party. All of the antisemitic propaganda before and after the Nazi takeover did apparently not produce significant spontaneous outbreaks of hatred, so the Nazi operatives had to dress up as civilians and do the Kristallnacht pogroms themselves.
.
The point being that Government in the abstract is the real evil, not so much Hitler or the Nazis?

Kristallnacht was 1938, but from 1933 when Hitler first became Chanceller by appointment (as the head of a party holding a plurality in the Reichstag) to 1934, there was plenty of real violence and murder of Jews, trade unionists, Communists (which saw the world too much as the Nazis did -- in terms of violent struggle -- making them a particular threat) and beating up of people in general who wouldn't return the Hitler salute and that sort of thing. These people were indeed whipped up by hatred and fear of an ethnic group. It was through these means and other sorts of manipulation of a sense of fear and perceived immediate threat from outside groups, that a constitutional appointed position was transformed into a dictatorship.

Only gradually did Hitler shift his power base from his his hundreds of thousands of street thugs to the government proper.

It is hard to say for sure how the Nazi party owed its development to a "nebulous climate of hate", but they developed, and became a powerful organization, very much as outsiders, a long way from the halls of government.

Fantasies of government, driven by do-gooders and place-holding bureaucrats, gradually morphing into totalitarianism, as in Atlas Shrugged, or the Readers's Digest or Comic book version of Hayek's Road to Serfdom (http://whatwasthecoldwar.blogspot.co...t-road-to.html) show an ignorance that can be remedied by serious study of how Totalitarian governments really developed.

The Nazi story isn't a pattern for all the others, but I haven't seen one that remotely resembles Atlas Shrugged or the Readers' Digest version of The Road to Serfdom.
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  #113  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:49 PM
Hal Morris Hal Morris is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

Quote:
Originally Posted by popcorn_karate View Post
she didn't say it directly, but she implied that David Duke should be on TV more, because we don't want racism driven underground.
Also, w.r.t. Mollie, if Paul Krugman's characterization of Sarah Palin as the "Hezbollah wing of the [GOP or Teaparty - not sure which]", is so extreme and awful, what should we say about Sarah Palin, in her first 15 minutes of Fame (the McCain/Palin nominating convention) referring over and over again to Obama "pal-ing around with terrorists".

I don't know anyone (though I am sure there is someone on some obscure blog) talking about locking up Pam Geller -- it really seems to me to amount to that she and those like her are somehow entitled to their fame, and Mollie objects to anyone answering them with a smidgen of the vehemence that they routinely exhibit.
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  #114  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:55 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post

Anyway, Appelbaum is talking about birthers, which she did not identify at all with the Tea Party or with "the American Far Right" in general.

You did that all on your own.
So very glad you did the research. Of course none of this will make a bit of difference to you know who.
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  #115  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:11 PM
Hal Morris Hal Morris is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I'd like to hear more from you, if you care to elaborate, on why it is creepy, unhealthy, and bad for democracy, for an American to believe that those values which make his country or culture great, and as such constitute the identity of his culture or country, is being betrayed by a decadent elite?
If you are really interested in what kezboard finds creepy, etc., about Breivik and/or Pam Geller, and what he/she sees them having in common (referring to their writing that is), it would be best not to trivialize the concern as being about the belief "that those values which make his country or culture great, and as such constitute the identity of his culture or country, is being betrayed by a decadent elite".

Really this sort of asking someone to justify what they said, while mischaracterizing it reminds me of the old "when did you stop beating your wife" thing, or to pick a more amusing example, this Dilbert strip: http://thedilbertstore.com/comic_str...refcode=DB1020 possibly my all time favorite.
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  #116  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:13 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Nazi violence was a public sector undertaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal Morris View Post
The point being that Government in the abstract is the real evil, not so much Hitler or the Nazis?

Kristallnacht was 1938, but from 1933 when Hitler first became Chanceller by appointment (as the head of a party holding a plurality in the Reichstag) to 1934, there was plenty of real violence and murder of Jews, trade unionists, Communists (which saw the world too much as the Nazis did -- in terms of violent struggle -- making them a particular threat) and beating up of people in general who wouldn't return the Hitler salute and that sort of thing. These people were indeed whipped up by hatred and fear of an ethnic group. It was through these means and other sorts of manipulation of a sense of fear and perceived immediate threat from outside groups, that a constitutional appointed position was transformed into a dictatorship.

Only gradually did Hitler shift his power base from his his hundreds of thousands of street thugs to the government proper.

It is hard to say for sure how the Nazi party owed its development to a "nebulous climate of hate", but they developed, and became a powerful organization, very much as outsiders, a long way from the halls of government.

Fantasies of government, driven by do-gooders and place-holding bureaucrats, gradually morphing into totalitarianism, as in Atlas Shrugged, or the Readers's Digest or Comic book version of Hayek's Road to Serfdom (http://whatwasthecoldwar.blogspot.co...t-road-to.html) show an ignorance that can be remedied by serious study of how Totalitarian governments really developed.

The Nazi story isn't a pattern for all the others, but I haven't seen one that remotely resembles Atlas Shrugged or the Readers' Digest version of The Road to Serfdom.
I don't know where Dieter is getting his information from. I have serious doubts about the reasoning of people who deny historical patterns of cognitive bias, seeking to blow it off as this or that random fluke.

Again, I ask the right: where does racism, sexism, ethnic chauvinism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. originate? Everyone who has seriously looked at these social developments are in general agreement that they hew to patterns of human cognitive bias, largely having to do with the maintenance of traditional power structures, and are transmitted culturally.

By definition, these movements are found on the right-wing. Does it not stand to reason that the right wing would at least downplay their negative consequences, if not outright favor and align themselves with their continuation?

Essentially, the pattern we are discussing can be reasonably summed up as "hate". I would define this as any irrational dislike, disgust and or contempt of a particular sociological group, typically a minority or traditionally excluded and or ostracized, based on flawed cognitive models.

Pick any discrimination throughout human history and it will almost invariably fit this definition. By calling it hatred, we acknowledge both what it is, where it comes from, where it has historically lead, and establish our intolerance for it.

It will always find new and clever manifestations, at least as long as privilege and power structures, or even ancient claims to anachronistic hegemonies exist. In these cognitive bias can spread and feed off of what one might call "hate-thought" (at the risk of playing right into the hands of those who would decry such a short-hand reduction as censorship). To them, I would ask whether they would not refer to the words of Hitler or a Klansman similarly. There are clearly patterns of human thinking, likely instinctual or biologically determined predilections, that originate from deeply unconscious yet very real places in the human psyche, which have been see again and again to have dangerous results. It is not censorship to point out the ways in which patterns of thought stand in parallel to patterns we have witnessed time and time again.
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Last edited by eeeeeeeli; 08-01-2011 at 09:17 PM..
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  #117  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:26 PM
dieter dieter is offline
 
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Default Re: Nazi violence was a public sector undertaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal Morris View Post
The point being that Government in the abstract is the real evil, not so much Hitler or the Nazis?
No.
You went off on some tangent there. ;-)

Members of the chattering classes like to believe that cunning wordsmithery was sufficient to cause the masses to take targeted violent political action. I am saying that actual organization, whether private or public, is necessary to get purposeful violent action going.
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  #118  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:53 PM
dieter dieter is offline
 
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Default Re: Nazi violence was a public sector undertaking

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
I don't know where Dieter is getting his information from.
You are off topic squared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Again, I ask the right: where does racism, sexism, ethnic chauvinism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. originate?
[...]
By definition, these movements are found on the right-wing.
Che Guevara was demonstrably sexist, homophobic and his trademark slogan "patria o muerte" certainly hints towards ethnic chauvinism, although I've not looked into that. Karl Marx was certainly racist. He was concerned, to say the least, about his daughter marrying a Haitian who might or might not have had a tiny bit of African blood in him.

What about hatred of the police, priests, soldiers, the rich, aristocrats, the petite and the regular bourgeoisie? All of these people were to Gulag by the millions by leftists.

That is some cognitive bias right there, to omit leftist bigotry altogether and to associate politically unaffiliated bigotry exclusively with the right.

Anyway, my actual claim holds with the left as well. Lenin, Trotzky, Stalin and Mao were skillful organizers and orchestrators of organized political violence. A "climate of hatred" against the Rich or the Jews or certain Races is not sufficient to cause mass violence. Otherwise there would be pogroms on a daily basis.

Last edited by dieter; 08-01-2011 at 09:58 PM..
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  #119  
Old 08-01-2011, 10:11 PM
dieter dieter is offline
 
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Default Re: I have a problem with this conversation

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
but there was never a general view that Islam was a religion of peace or the rest
Oh, I wasn't thinking about general public sentiment. Ideological, argumentative types who actually bothered to debate the issue are whom I had in mind.

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
Given, you know, Iran and the hostage crisis, I think that's the view that people in the US have generally grown up with since the '80s. For other examples of the American cultural view of Islam as a religion of peace, see Back to the Future.
I don't get the "Back to the Future" reference. Not Without My Daughter was big. But then there was also Rambo III.
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  #120  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:29 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)

eeeeeeli: I've learned from checking the comments here that it's folly to expect any honest commentary from characters like "harkin."
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