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  #41  
Old 05-04-2011, 06:58 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rfrobison View Post
Perhaps you'd care to explain just what it is you believe the Islamist terror dudes have "won"?

Far as I can tell, their biggest accomplishment was to make everybody take off there shoes at airports. Your overwrought rhetoric notwithstanding, the U.S. remains much the same as it was before 9/11, for good or ill.
Did rfrobison, aka Mr Fiscal Rectitude, notice the price tag of the two wars? Since one of the declared objectives of Bin Laden and his terrorist dudes was to involve the US in a costly and ultimately futile war in the Middle East---in the hope that it would lose just as the USSR had lost in Afghanistan-- you could say that they did win, and Americans will be paying the price for some time to come.

Last edited by Florian; 05-04-2011 at 07:01 AM..
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  #42  
Old 05-04-2011, 10:03 AM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
If it turns out that he was summarily executed, then I can't help but wonder whether or not the controversy over KSM's trial prompted Obama to make a political decision not to capture him alive.
Well, it looks like Obama is making a political decision to surge the troops in Afg in the hopes of breaking the insurgency before the start of the 2012 campaign season. Deciding to have the American soldiers kill OBL for political reasons is not out of the realm of possiblity. ( Is a soldier obligated to disobey an order to kill someone who can be safely captured? )

You have to cry at the contrast of all the concern for the safety of the SEAL team going in to take out OBL vs the risks the infantry soldiers face every day in Afg walking patrol in Taliban territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Given how gleefully the Right has tried to demagogue that much less prominent terrorist's trial, I bet that Obama imagined what an attempt to try OBL in a civilian court would look like, noted that the trial might well be ongoing during the 2012 election, and decided to just simplify the situation
yeah, that all powerful right. The government should send a few drone strikes their way from time to time. The right is simply sensibly suggesting that the trials take place in military court. If found guilty, have the convicted executed at the conclusion of the trial.
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  #43  
Old 05-04-2011, 10:13 AM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
... Since one of the declared objectives of Bin Laden and his terrorist dudes was to involve the US in a costly and ultimately futile war in the Middle East---in the hope that it would lose just as the USSR had lost in Afghanistan-- you could say that they did win, and Americans will be paying the price for some time to come.
I don't want to ruin your day by casting doubt in your mind, but al queda appears to be losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the arab street. Granted I don't know the extent of influence of the muslim brotherhood, but if Syria, Egypt, Libya and Tunisia go democratic, that lessens the influence of al Queda. Also, Pakistan is being exposed to some degree. If Pakistan has been the sponsor of al Queda all along, then exposing that fact makes it harder for that terror network to operate in the world.
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  #44  
Old 05-04-2011, 10:17 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Eli doesn't see link of GW to terrorism; Heather misses rebuttal

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Originally Posted by Globalcop View Post
That is pure comedy genius.
It's kinda thrilling to have your very own private set of science facts and "obvious" assumptions, isn't it?
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  #45  
Old 05-04-2011, 10:20 AM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default a theory

Maybe Pakistan was hiding Bin Laden because OBL knew Pakistan had been sponsoring al Queda and the Taliban prior to 9/11. Maybe, without help from Pakistan, the 9/11 attack could not have been organized. Pakistan was risking a lot by harboring OBL. Why do that unless OBL was a credible threat to reveal damning evidence against Pakistan?
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  #46  
Old 05-04-2011, 10:46 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
I don't want to ruin your day by casting doubt in your mind, but al queda appears to be losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the arab street. Granted I don't know the extent of influence of the muslim brotherhood, but if Syria, Egypt, Libya and Tunisia go democratic, that lessens the influence of al Queda. Also, Pakistan is being exposed to some degree. If Pakistan has been the sponsor of al Queda all along, then exposing that fact makes it harder for that terror network to operate in the world.
This has nothing to do with what I said, nor with what ohreally said.
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  #47  
Old 05-04-2011, 11:06 AM
hamandcheese hamandcheese is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

I'm surprised at the lack of BH commentary on the Canadian federal elections. There seems to be a consensus on the irrelevancy of Osama, yet it's still all anyone is talking about! Our conservative majority government is far more significant for the US and the world than the sentience of a retired murderer.
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  #48  
Old 05-04-2011, 11:14 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamandcheese View Post
I'm surprised at the lack of BH commentary on the Canadian federal elections. There seems to be a consensus on the irrelevancy of Osama, yet it's still all anyone is talking about! Our conservative majority government is far more significant for the US and the world than the sentience of a retired murderer.
You're probably correct. I'm a bit surprised that the conservatives took an outright majority, but then I wasn't following it too closely (I'm following Peru's election much closer).
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  #49  
Old 05-04-2011, 11:14 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

In what sense? Hordes of disposed Canadians storming the northern border?

I think Trudeau's characterization of the relationship between the US and Canada to that between a mouse and an elephant holds.
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  #50  
Old 05-04-2011, 11:27 AM
Diane1976 Diane1976 is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
You're missing the point that Bin Laden could have been brought to justice without summarily executing him. Killing people without trial is illegal and immoral.

The execution was wrong according to the Geneva Conventions and wrong to all civilized countries (and several religions) that have abolished capital punishment.

A case could have been made that Bin Laden couldn't have been captured without greater casualties (innocent people), but I don't see the US government really making that case.

I also don't buy into your psychology of vengeance. It's true that we all have these malicious impulses, but the notion that they have "served us well" so we should just keep on indulging them seems ridiculous to me.

Saying that some people are outside "the circle of concern," however despicable their deeds may be, also sets a dangerous precedent for future killings, grants an implicit license to other governments in their law enforcement pursuits, and tarnishes our humanitarian values.

We don't allow our police forces to operate on the principle that it's ok to kill very bad people; we hold in contempt other countries (like Israel or Russia) that engage in political assassinations; in the pre-Bush era, we had ruled out executing our "enemies." But suddenly, everyone is not only comfortable with it, but eager to celebrate it.

One of the real dangers of terrorism is how quickly it erodes our values. If the terrorists get us to build Guantánamos, torture prisoners, hold detainees without trial and summarily execute the "masterminds," then we lose our moral grounding and the terrorists win.
I agree with what you're saying. But, can you imagine the endless, agonizing debates over what exactly should be done with OBL? It wouldn't be like the trial of Saddam which could be made into an Iraqi affair. The US would have to do it itself. Should it be in Gtmo, or in NY or, maybe Afghanistan, or somewhere else? How to avoid making him seem like a martyr or a hero? What about security threats? Shouldn't he be interrogated for a few years and how? What about Miranda rights? How to prevent him from having a "platform" from which to preach? A civilian or military trial? How should he be executed? No matter what Obama did critics would pounce from all sides. He would probably settle on a military trial in Gtmo, meaning it would take several years, if not decades, based on all past history. If I were Obama, I couldn't face it. I think he did himself, OBL and everybody else a big favour.
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  #51  
Old 05-04-2011, 11:42 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

An outright majority of the parliamentary seats. 39% of the vote. This discrepancy is one of the problems with a truly multiparty system with a winner-take-all contest at the local level.

This map also gives you the complete rundown of where the various seats are.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...ullscreen.html

Those of us who are familiar with Canadian politics will be struck by several other things:

1. The relegation of the Liberals to an essentially maritime party (and the maritimes may be where people are just not ready to switch to the NDP, whcih brings me to...)

2. The rise of the NDP as a reasonably viable, national party. Unlike the liberals, they have seats in every region of the country, and got 30% of the vote. It remains to be seen whether they are going to be the actual leading left party in Canada, or if this has more to do with the relative political skils of Jack Layton vs. Michael Ignatieff, who is already gone. Another interesting possibility is a merger, which DOES happen from time to time. (had the liberals and the NDP not been fielding candidates against each other, they would have gotten the majority of the seats AND a near majority of the vote).

3. The utter decimiation of the Bloq Quebecois. I am truly hopeful that this means that a very dark chapter in Canadian history is finally over. In the long-term history of Canada, this might be the most newsworthy.
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  #52  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:03 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
An outright majority of the parliamentary seats. 39% of the vote. This discrepancy is one of the problems with a truly multiparty system with a winner-take-all contest at the local level.

This map also gives you the complete rundown of where the various seats are.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...ullscreen.html

...
nice map. I would worry if I was a Canadian that the country was becoming too dependent on income derived from its sale of its natural resources. How rapidly is the population growing from immigration? It is like the country is wealthy enough over the next 30 years to support an increasing population. But once all the tar sands are melted and sold how will the additional people earn a living?
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  #53  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:07 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
You're probably correct. I'm a bit surprised that the conservatives took an outright majority, but then I wasn't following it too closely (I'm following Peru's election much closer).
I heard an analysis on the John Batchelor radio show that the immigrants voted conservative. Which is used by the open borders conservatives in the US as an argument to support continued "pro growth" immigration.
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  #54  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:12 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
An outright majority of the parliamentary seats. 39% of the vote. This discrepancy is one of the problems with a truly multiparty system with a winner-take-all contest at the local level.

This map also gives you the complete rundown of where the various seats are.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...ullscreen.html

Those of us who are familiar with Canadian politics will be struck by several other things:

1. The relegation of the Liberals to an essentially maritime party (and the maritimes may be where people are just not ready to switch to the NDP, whcih brings me to...)

2. The rise of the NDP as a reasonably viable, national party. Unlike the liberals, they have seats in every region of the country, and got 30% of the vote. It remains to be seen whether they are going to be the actual leading left party in Canada, or if this has more to do with the relative political skils of Jack Layton vs. Michael Ignatieff, who is already gone. Another interesting possibility is a merger, which DOES happen from time to time. (had the liberals and the NDP not been fielding candidates against each other, they would have gotten the majority of the seats AND a near majority of the vote).

3. The utter decimiation of the Bloq Quebecois. I am truly hopeful that this means that a very dark chapter in Canadian history is finally over. In the long-term history of Canada, this might be the most newsworthy.
Hey, maybe you and hamandcheese, or Diane1976, or another Canadian, could do an Apollo diavlog, and include the elections as one of your topics.
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  #55  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:16 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
An outright majority of the parliamentary seats. 39% of the vote. This discrepancy is one of the problems with a truly multiparty system with a winner-take-all contest at the local level.

This map also gives you the complete rundown of where the various seats are.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...ullscreen.html

Those of us who are familiar with Canadian politics will be struck by several other things:

1. The relegation of the Liberals to an essentially maritime party (and the maritimes may be where people are just not ready to switch to the NDP, whcih brings me to...)

2. The rise of the NDP as a reasonably viable, national party. Unlike the liberals, they have seats in every region of the country, and got 30% of the vote. It remains to be seen whether they are going to be the actual leading left party in Canada, or if this has more to do with the relative political skils of Jack Layton vs. Michael Ignatieff, who is already gone. Another interesting possibility is a merger, which DOES happen from time to time. (had the liberals and the NDP not been fielding candidates against each other, they would have gotten the majority of the seats AND a near majority of the vote).

3. The utter decimiation of the Bloq Quebecois. I am truly hopeful that this means that a very dark chapter in Canadian history is finally over. In the long-term history of Canada, this might be the most newsworthy.
Interesting. I had imagined that the conservatives would be strongest in Alberta and, to a lesser extent, Saskatchewan, since they have struck me as traditionally much more small-l liberal than the coastal areas. If I'm not mistaken, this is also the area of the strongest economic growth due to the natural resource exploration.

It also seems that Canada is becoming more polarized--NDP certainly seems farther left than the liberal party (the latter seemed more corporatist). So it should be fun times ahead

As for BQ, I almost wish that Quebec would've separated. It would've been entertaining..
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  #56  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:19 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

There are a couple of responses.

First, I would distinguish between renewable and nonrenewable natural resources: fishing and farming and (to some degree) lumber are renewable. gas/oil, not so much.

Second, most of the income in Canada is NOT from natural resources. In this sense, it's not like countries in the middle east. Most people in Canada, like most of the west, are employed in some kind of service industry. Canada has a big manufacturing base (cars, aeronautics). As well, Canada is big in education intensive industries- R&D, software development, and the like.

not to deny that there aren't benefits to being a net energy exporter, but your characterization ignores these other factors.
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  #57  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:22 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Well, the "coastal" equation doesn't apply very well to Canada. the Maritimes are economically liberal, sure, but that's because it's primarily a center for generational poverty these days, and it's relatively (for Canada) socially conservative (note that the conservatives did relatively well in atlantic canada).

you're right that conservatives did well in the prairie provinces.
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  #58  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:22 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

So preventing President Obama from having to make difficult decisions is reason enough for summary execution.
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  #59  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:23 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Thanks, but not living ther for more than a decade and my general lack of knowlege probably precludes me. I would enjoy watching someone else do it, however. :-)
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  #60  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:26 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Well, the "coastal" equation doesn't apply very well to Canada. the Maritimes are economically liberal, sure, but that's because it's primarily a center for generational poverty these days, and it's relatively (for Canada) socially conservative (note that the conservatives did relatively well in atlantic canada).
Ah so it's your Mississippi
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  #61  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:29 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

except economically liberal. And the social conservativism has a more libertarian vibe.
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  #62  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:31 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
except economically liberal. And the social conservativism has a more libertarian vibe.
There's a dirty little secret about "conservatives" in Mississippi and Alabama: they're not fiscally conservative. At all. Some of the worst earmark offenders are from the two states, and they receive massive government spending.
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  #63  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:32 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

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Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
So preventing President Obama from having to make difficult decisions is reason enough for summary execution.
Wrong. Preventing President Obama from having to make a bad decision is reason enough to choose summary execution. It was the best option, as Diane explained, for all concerned.

This is freaking Osama bin Laden, for Christ's sake. I can't believe the hand wringing.
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  #64  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:34 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

With that reasoning America would never of had a President Clinton who never won more than a plurality(92 43%, 96 49%).
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  #65  
Old 05-04-2011, 12:46 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
There are a couple of responses.

...

not to deny that there aren't benefits to being a net energy exporter, but your characterization ignores these other factors.
I would like to see the numbers. Raw material prices are way up in the last few years. And I read Canada is scheduled to balance its budget in 2 years. Not a coincidence is my guess.
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  #66  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:06 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Coward Narrative of Bin Laden's Death

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Originally Posted by tom View Post
[...]

There seems to be a consensus that the alias of the courier was ascertained in '05, therefore after enhanced interrogation had stopped.

Here's Rumsfeld, today:
“It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

And Lindsey Graham:
"This idea we caught bin Laden because of waterboarding I think is a misstatement. This whole concept of how we caught bin Laden is a lot of work over time by different people and putting the puzzle together. I do not believe this is a time to celebrate waterboarding, I believe this is a time to celebrate hard work."

And the NYT on what happened after the courier's alias was ascertained:

“Operation Cannonball, a [2005] bureaucratic reshuffling ... placed more C.I.A. case officers on the ground in Pakistan and Afghanistan. With more agents in the field, the C.I.A. finally got the courier’s family name. With that, they turned to one of their greatest investigative tools — the National Security Agency began intercepting telephone calls and e-mail messages between the man’s family and anyone inside Pakistan. From there they got his full name. Last July, Pakistani agents working for the C.I.A. spotted him driving his vehicle near Peshawar.”

[...]
Much more along these lines here.
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  #67  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:09 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

So your a Sara Palin supporter, drill baby drill.
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  #68  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:21 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Wrong. Preventing President Obama from having to make a bad decision is reason enough to choose summary execution. It was the best option, as Diane explained, for all concerned.

This is freaking Osama bin Laden, for Christ's sake. I can't believe the hand wringing.
Well, it's piscivorous, don't forget. He's been applauding torture, rooting for invading other countries, fluffing Teh Surge, etc., for years now, as long as such actions were ordered by a Republican administration. When that last part changes, his apparent convictions go right out the window, and it's all about attempting to score cheap points with smarminess.

Mindless tribalism, in other words.
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  #69  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:35 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Great idea! I would love to know more about the situation in Canada (without having to make my lazy American ass expend too much effort )
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  #70  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:39 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Great idea! I would love to know more about the situation in Canada (without having to make my lazy American ass expend too much effort )
Yeah, I'd second that.

I do hope that Bob brings in some people to discuss the upcoming Peru vote, too, which is also quite interesting.
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  #71  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:45 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Well, it's piscivorous, don't forget. He's been applauding torture, rooting for invading other countries, fluffing Teh Surge, etc., for years now, as long as such actions were ordered by a Republican administration. When that last part changes, his apparent convictions go right out the window, and it's all about attempting to score cheap points with smarminess.

Mindless tribalism, in other words.
how soon before Brennan throws the SEALs under the bus and claims Obama did not want OBL shot dead? It makes much more national security sense to capture and interrogate the trusted couriers and OBL than to kill them. That way we might find out the extent of Pakistan's involvement in the terror attacks against the US.

The SEALs could have thrown stun grenades into the rooms before entering to clear them. It is Obama and the democrats who value PR so much and think it is better to kill the combatants than to interrogate them and try them before a military court.
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  #72  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:45 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Hey, maybe you and hamandcheese, or Diane1976, or another Canadian, could do an Apollo diavlog, and include the elections as one of your topics.
Good idea.
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  #73  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:50 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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Originally Posted by rfrobison View Post
Perhaps you'd care to explain just what it is you believe the Islamist terror dudes have "won"?

Far as I can tell, their biggest accomplishment was to make everybody take off there shoes at airports. Your overwrought rhetoric notwithstanding, the U.S. remains much the same as it was before 9/11, for good or ill.
I disagree. I think ohreally exaggerates in his conclusions, excessively belittles the significance of killing bin Laden, and I don't think bin Laden won a war, but I think ohreally is basically correct in the itemized costs he lists, and I think bin Laden and his organization did strike a succession of blows that could be equated to winning a major battle at least.

Never mind the money, the pointless wars, and the needless deaths. (I hope you will stipulate to those. If not, there's nothing we have to say to each other.) I just want here to dispute your claim that the US "remains much the same," that all we have to do that's different is take off our shoes at the airport. In fact, at the airport alone, we also have to suffer a number of other indignities, including invasive groping searches, scanning using devices whose health risks are being called into question, ridiculous restrictions against things like bottles of water, numerous hassles going to the airport, even to pick up or drop off passengers, higher costs for air travel, and so on.

And the changes in life don't end once we leave the airport. We live in much more of a surveillance society today. We have lost numerous civil rights protections. Read up on National Security Letters (starting here, if you like), just to name one awful example. It seems like virtually any police or government action now carries the threat that it can be excused under the rubric of "national security concerns."

And consider the emotional and values shift. Before late 2001, I could not even have conceived of the possibility that it would become a respectable (or at least widespread among prominent people) position in this country -- to the point of becoming near-shibboleths for activist conservatives and many Republicans -- to argue in favor of state-sanctioned torture, the abandonment of the Geneva Conventions, and the denial of First Amendment rights to people based on their religious beliefs.

A lot has changed in this country in the last decade, and almost none of it for the good, as far as anything that can be connected to bin Laden (and what he represents) goes. It remains to be seen whether bin Laden scored a permanent victory, or if we can rebound from the chronic bed-wetting state we currently find ourselves in.
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  #74  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
So your a Sara Palin supporter, drill baby drill.
Nice one. (seriously)
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  #75  
Old 05-04-2011, 01:56 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

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  #76  
Old 05-04-2011, 02:55 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

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This is freaking Osama bin Laden, for Christ's sake. I can't believe the hand wringing.
What if an elite team of Iraqi Insurgents took out a hit on President Bush or Secretary of State Powell? Couldn't they have plausibly said to the world, "It's freaking George W. Bush, for Christ's sake. I can't believe the hand wringing."

I'm sure you see where I'm going with this: if you're not hand wringing (objecting on legal and compassionate grounds) to the unnecessary death of one bad guy, you are opening a wide door to not having standing to object in future cases of less clearly bad guys.

The reason we havet international criminal law is for guys like Bin Laden, Kaddafi (and I migh add, Bush). Taking the law into our own hands is defiance of those legal mechanisms.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:38 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
The reason we havet international criminal law is for guys like Bin Laden, Kaddafi (and I migh add, Bush). Taking the law into our own hands is defiance of those legal mechanisms.
It is looking more and more like OBL was executed.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/shep-smit...laden-capture/

He was unarmed on the 3rd floor of the house in a room with his wives and children when the SEALs entered the room. The wife charged the SEAL guys and was shot in the leg. Shortly after OBL is dead of a shot to the head.

They need to release the contents of the video feed that was being viewed in real time in Wash DC as the raid was being conducted.

Arguably, Pakistan is a bigger threat to the US than al Queda is. We, the citizens, don't know what role Pakistan is playing in events of the last 10 years. If we were able to interrogate OBL and the courier brothers we would better understand the threat we are facing.
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  #78  
Old 05-04-2011, 06:52 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Why it was wrong to execute Bin Laden.

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It is looking more and more like OBL was executed.
I am glad you're on board for supporting international law, Steve. (It will help keep the peace some day soon on the Idaho border).

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Arguably, Pakistan is a bigger threat to the US than al Queda is.
Absolutely. Pakistan is a rogue nuclear state, out of compliance with the NPT, like its neighbor India, North Korea and Israel.

Global peace is still about nukes, Steve. Without nuclear weapons we'd worry a lot less about Pakistan, Iran, Israel or the Bin Ladens of the world.

Now that you're an peace activist against the war in Afghanistan, you should also bring your attention to nuclear disarmament. Obama talks a good-enough-to-win-a-Nobel-Peace-Prize game on nuclear abolition, but he won't do be doing any disarming any time soon (in the next 6 yrs. that is).
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  #79  
Old 05-04-2011, 06:57 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default You can't tell the players without a scorecard!

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
It is looking more and more like OBL was executed.
Get yours here!

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A patriot's guide to still hating Obama for killing Osama
(From B'head Alex Pareene.)
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:06 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Osama and Everything After (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

Well, they're selectively economically conservative, I will grant you that. They are generally for lax labor laws, for no minimum wages, and no unions and for low taxes on the wealthy. This is not the case in the Maritimes.

As well, Maritime social conservativism is much more, "its unseemly to talk about sex in public", "everybody needs guns to hunt" and "foreigners make me uncomfortable but I'll be polite" than it is "let's ban the following sex acts", "let's all pray publically", or "they's miscegenated, git em!"
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