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  #1  
Old 12-15-2011, 04:01 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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  #2  
Old 12-15-2011, 05:58 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

Gingrich too risky? As opposed to say....Chairman Zero?

Don't like Gingrich much at all, don't trust him much at all. But compared to the Disaster-In-Chief he's Lincoln.
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  #3  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:58 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Don't like Gingrich much at all, don't trust him much at all. But compared to the Disaster-In-Chief he's Lincoln.
Isn't this kind of ungenerous? Bush has been out of office nearly four years.
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  #4  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:31 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

As to income inequality, I just read something the other day that was a great truth. If I remember the link I'll re-post.

You cannot grow the middle class by attempting to provide to the poor the things the middle class has (e.g. homes, stable family life, health care, college education etc). You grow the middle class by getting the poor to copy the behavior of the people who provide those things for themselves. In other words the exact opposite of what the schools and the government are encouraging the poor to do presently.

Then again, I don't think the liberals are really interested in growing the middle class and their only real goal regarding income equality is to make everyone poor and helpless enough to be dependent on the government, therefore making them much easier to control, maximizing government power (and the perks of the governing political elites).
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  #5  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:36 PM
redpeakpass redpeakpass is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

Chairman Zero? Wow! Delusional doesn't come close to describing the teabagger mindset that comes up with some of these names...
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:44 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Originally Posted by redpeakpass View Post
Chairman Zero? Wow! Delusional doesn't come close to describing the teabagger mindset that comes up with some of these names...
It is an awfully dumb moniker, but meh... harkin doesn't even try anymore. Lazy tropes lifted from internet propeller-heads, hand-waves at the "clique," harumph, and he's done.
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  #7  
Old 12-15-2011, 08:42 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

Looking forward to Timothy's book on income inequality coming out next year. Hopefully, his suggestions on how to ameloriate it will be better than the politicians feeble attempts to do so.

Last edited by bkjazfan; 12-15-2011 at 08:47 PM..
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  #8  
Old 12-17-2011, 08:32 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Looking forward to Timothy's book on income inequality coming out next year. Hopefully, his suggestions on how to ameloriate it will be better than the politicians feeble attempts to do so.
I meant to agree with this, although I don't have high hopes for Tim's book. Seems to me the problem is real, but extremely difficult to address, thus the politicians' feeble responses.
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  #9  
Old 12-16-2011, 11:47 AM
Alexandrite Alexandrite is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

There's another %selfname in the world soaking up the interwebs ahead of me, and he's a 12 year old German boy who's already cooler than I am.


Twitter Advice:

Hold contests for when ever you begin to reach certain number of followers (When I get to 1000 followers, a random follower gets a free...).

Octothorpes are in low taste at the moment, so should be minimized like profanity. Both are acceptable on the service.

Twitter is not a chatroom, it's more like a forum (like this one), or even a cross between a chatroom and a forum. Try not to spam.

Follow your hobbies on it! Twitter is perfect for that. Follow anyone who is 'famous' to you, but is not grocery store famous. You can talk to these people and they talk back.

Oh and one more thing.

Arnold Kling's 'kenysian-austrian technological obsolescence GMU synthesis theory' is proven best by Twitter.

The way I see it people have 168 hours in a week. They used to spend X-hours of that watching TV. Each TV show hires dozens of people, and creates hundreds of jobs industry-wide and millions in revenue. Twitter as recreation eats into this. Every half hour you spend reading user generated tweets for free is money not being being spent on TV.

No one knows how to monetize twitter - I don't even think Twitter does. Twitter has only 600 employees (mostly programmers and marketing), yet millions of users - over 300 million. If the time spent 'reading twitter' was instead spent on watching a TV station, it'd be a multibillion dollar operation, with tens of thousands of employees.

What I'm getting at, is that Twitter is one of the causes of global job loss. It is a cause of the global economic stagnation. As more people use twitter, it turns monetizable economic human activity into non-monetizable human activity. Activity in which most of the income beneficiaries are a select number of extremely talented people. Twitter is increasing income inequality in the world. 600 people are now raking in the moneys that would have gone to thousands of workers under the pre-internet era model.


Enjoy your stay Timothy.
#ConsumptiveInequalityistheonlythingthatmatters
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  #10  
Old 12-16-2011, 12:18 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

This was a surprisingly enjoyable diavlog. Maybe I was just in the right mood, but Tim is fun and Rich really was pretty good too.

Rundown of thoughts -- I was waiting for Rich to mention the 999 guy during the same name discussion. Lots of people have my name, it always makes me feel happy (more anonymous) when I google myself and get flooded with different people. I suppose it's annoying I couldn't use my own name on Twitter and the like, but I'm more used to the fact that lots of others have my name, so don't expect it. When I was doing a lot of races there was another woman with my name who seemed to sign up for all the same races, so I'd always check her results too. She was faster than me.

On Newt, I'm with Tim, I'd love for him to be the candidate, but don't think he will be. Rich surprised me not in his lack of enthusiasm for Newt, but that he seems to stand behind NR's choice of Santorum as their preferred anti-Mitt. I thought that was just a bow to K-Lo's obvious crush. The debate made the end of Newt seem likely, unless I'm reading too much into it.

Like most liberals, I still don't understand the Hunstman antipathy, but it seems good for the Dems. Huntsman strikes me as pretty likeable and someone who seems a lot more moderate than he actually is in a way that would probably work well with Independents.

Good for Rich for acknowledging that the "federal tax" stats that exclude the payroll tax are ridiculous and dismisses a burden that working class and middle class Americans feel.

The Rockefeller Republican thing was interesting. I've been reading about George Romney a little lately and he seems like an interesting and appealing guy (with a weird personal history). This makes me wonder if perhaps Mitt might be more of a real Rockefeller type, despite his opportunistic new positions on everything. Mostly, I think he'd be a George HW Bush type, who could never really be a Reaganite, even though he adopted the guise as loyal VP. I suppose one could say that George W was reacting to this in his own persona to a certain extent -- and in the Iraq policy -- but I don't really buy that. More significant, I don't think there would be any reason to see the dynamics as similar. I'd guess Mitt would like to be seen as like his dad. Granted, all the amateur psychologizing is a little silly anyway, but I'm not so convince Mitt would feel compelled to be more right due to the perception that it's fake when actually governing. I'm more worried about his foreign policy advisors and the fact I can't really tell at all what he'd do, however.

Oh, and for some reason most of the Mormons I've know all seem to use various outdated words/slang.

Last edited by stephanie; 12-16-2011 at 12:23 PM..
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  #11  
Old 12-16-2011, 12:24 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Rich surprised me not in his lack of enthusiasm for Newt, but that he seems to stand behind NR's choice of Santorum as their preferred anti-Mitt. I thought that was just a bow to K-Lo's obvious crush.
Well, to be fair, at this point, who else is left? Everyone else's wave has already crested.

On homonyms and homonoms, I have the same name as a minor celebrity who is in the entertainment industry. There's never any point in googling myself. On the bright side, potential employers are either going to think I have a hidden talent or give up trying to find dirt.
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2011, 02:25 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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On Newt, I'm with Tim, I'd love for him to be the candidate, but don't think he will be. Rich surprised me not in his lack of enthusiasm for Newt, but that he seems to stand behind NR's choice of Santorum as their preferred anti-Mitt. I thought that was just a bow to K-Lo's obvious crush. The debate made the end of Newt seem likely, unless I'm reading too much into it.
So no one commented on this, but does anyone think Newt is actually going to win Iowa?
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  #13  
Old 12-17-2011, 02:27 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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So no one commented on this, but does anyone think Newt is actually going to win Iowa?
Seems less and less likely by the numbers - but the situation seems so volatile, how do you make sense of the data? I'm betting on "peaked too soon."
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  #14  
Old 12-17-2011, 08:33 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Seems less and less likely by the numbers - but the situation seems so volatile, how do you make sense of the data? I'm betting on "peaked too soon."
Yeah, seems right. Too bad.
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  #15  
Old 12-17-2011, 08:58 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

I have a bet with Basman that Newt will not be the nominee. About 10 days ago I began to panic, but this week I'm feeling a lot better. (Also note that Newt has completely crashed on Intrade.com).

Right now I think Iowa is too close to call. Paul, Romney and Newt all seem about even, but there is still plenty of time for Newt to continue the downward trend and for other "second tier" candidates to move up. The problem for them is that they're splitting the Bible vote three ways among Santorum, Bachmann and Perry.

I had a kind of epiphany with Romney yesterday, however. I saw him do an interview on Fox with Gretta Von-Whatever, and I suddenly understood why the base really rejects him and has gone through 20 iterations of Not Romneys. It's not the flip-flopping and it's not the supposedly liberal views. It's not that he's a rich guy who's out of touch or a cold guy who can't connect with the people. It's more that no matter what words come out of his mouth, it's completely obvious that he's basically a sensible person who will govern as a centrist (like Obama). He will never rock the boat. (Ditto for Huntsman, by the way, which explains his pathetic numbers.)

People pick up on that sobriety. Of course, Romney would govern like a Repubilcan, but he is most decidedly NOT a change candidate. Maybe this is obvious to everyone, and I'm the last person on Earth to understand it.
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  #16  
Old 12-17-2011, 09:06 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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I have a bet with Basman that Newt will not be the nominee. About 10 days ago I began to panic, but this week I'm feeling a lot better. (Also note that Newt has completely crashed on Intrade.com).
I have a general assumption that TPTB in the Republican Party will keep them from shooting themselves in the foot. Thus, regardless of Iowa (which has a history of nutty winners), I don't think Newt was ever really likely to get the nomination. And that's despite the fact that he seems to have an advantage in the South. Too bad.

The signs are that the initial "well, can't be...but maybe!" response is returning to "No way." Thus, the intrade.

Quote:
It's more that no matter what words come out of his mouth, it's completely obvious that he's basically a sensible person who will govern as a centrist (like Obama). He will never rock the boat. (Ditto for Huntsman, by the way, which explains his pathetic numbers.)
I don't know if you are the LAST person to get this, but I totally agree.
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  #17  
Old 12-17-2011, 09:28 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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I have a general assumption that TPTB in the Republican Party will keep them from shooting themselves in the foot. Thus, regardless of Iowa (which has a history of nutty winners), I don't think Newt was ever really likely to get the nomination. And that's despite the fact that he seems to have an advantage in the South. Too bad.
I have mixed feelings about the "too bad" part. I agree that Obama would do a lot better against Newt, but what if Newt actually won? Let's say it's 50-50 Obama/Romney and 67-33 Obama-Gingrich. Obama's odds are considerably better against Gingrich, but the worst outcome (Gingrich is the WH) remains a distinct possibility. I could live with President Romney-Huntsman; if Newt wins I'm moving to Pluto.

[/QUOTE]
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  #18  
Old 12-17-2011, 09:37 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I have mixed feelings about the "too bad" part. I agree that Obama would do a lot better against Newt, but what if Newt actually won? Let's say it's 50-50 Obama/Romney and 67-33 Obama-Gingrich. Obama's odds are considerably better against Gingrich, but the worst outcome (Gingrich is the WH) remains a distinct possibility. I could live with President Romney-Huntsman; if Newt wins I'm moving to Pluto.
I'm volunterring to be a lunar colonist!

Seriously, I'm usually totally on board with the idea that anyone can win, so it's better to root for the rational opponent. Yet, in this case, I just don't think Newt could win. Mitt could, Huntsman probably would.
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  #19  
Old 12-17-2011, 09:41 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Breaking news...

Des Moines.

Gingrich now at 12.8 on Intrade. Romney 65%. Ron Paul @ 7.9.

Why am I not taking 12.5 to 1 on Ron Paul not being the Republican nominee for POTUS? That sounds like a very sure thing. No wonder I never got rich in Las Vegas or the NYSE!
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  #20  
Old 12-17-2011, 09:59 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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I I could live with President Romney-Huntsman; if Newt wins I'm moving to Pluto.
The fact that you think Romney-Huntsman is remotely possible reiterates that I think you are being dramatically optimistic about how Romney will make political decisions.
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  #21  
Old 12-17-2011, 10:03 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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The fact that you think Romney-Huntsman is remotely possible reiterates that I think you are being dramatically optimistic about how Romney will make political decisions.
Sorry, I knew that was confusing when I typed it. I didn't mean a Romney-Huntsman ticket. I just meant that I think Romney and Huntsman are basically interchangeable as candidates.
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  #22  
Old 12-17-2011, 10:04 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Sorry, I knew that was confusing when I typed it. I didn't mean a Romney-Huntsman ticket. I just meant that I think Romney and Huntsman are basically interchangeable as candidates.
Ah!!!

This may be the first time I have ever over estimated your optimism.

;-)
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  #23  
Old 12-17-2011, 10:19 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Sorry, I knew that was confusing when I typed it. I didn't mean a Romney-Huntsman ticket. I just meant that I think Romney and Huntsman are basically interchangeable as candidates.
Yeah, that's how I read you, though looking back I get why micelf read it as he did. Just affirming that you weren't communicating that badly. (And I agree. Huntsman has been attacking Romney because Romney is his competition, takes up voters who would otherwise naturally go to Huntsman.)
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  #24  
Old 12-17-2011, 10:31 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

I've heard the theory that Huntsman is really running against the generic Dem. of 2016. I don't really buy it. I think Huntsman fades into nothingness after this campaign, unless he emerges in Romney's cabinet.

As for the Republican ticket, Romney will have to jazz it up and feed the base somehow. Rubio could be the smart bet: speaks fluent Spanish, delivers Florida, is young, articulate and a true-believer right-winger.

Nikki Haley is probably hoping to be the Palin of 2012, but she may have to settle for being the Janet Nepolitano.
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:43 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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I've heard the theory that Huntsman is really running against the generic Dem. of 2016. I don't really buy it. I think Huntsman fades into nothingness after this campaign, unless he emerges in Romney's cabinet.
I will remind those of you who are thinking about how Romney won't be so bad, that the last "moderate republican president" was (at least during the campaign) George W. Bush. He was known to get along with Dems in his state, he talked a lot about compassion and humility in foreign affairs, and was not seen as especially partisan.

He of course was required to have Cheney as running mate and we know how the rest turned out, "9/11 changed everything" notwithstanding.

I just don't see how the republican base, empowered by (what they will remember and frame as) the election between liberalism and free-market republicanism and "real american values" is going to be more humble in their aspirations than they are now, and how they're going to let Romney move to the center, given that they will believe that the country is with them.
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  #26  
Old 12-17-2011, 10:56 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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I will remind those of you who are thinking about how Romney won't be so bad, that the last "moderate republican president" was (at least during the campaign) George W. Bush. He was known to get along with Dems in his state, he talked a lot about compassion and humility in foreign affairs, and was not seen as especially partisan.

He of course was required to have Cheney as running mate and we know how the rest turned out, "9/11 changed everything" notwithstanding.
.
Good points, although I think Cheney was a once-in-a-century aberration. I don't think we can draw a lot of inferences from the Cheney presidency to what the Romney years would look like.

Quote:
I just don't see how the republican base, empowered by (what they will remember and frame as) the election between liberalism and free-market republicanism and "real american values" is going to be more humble in their aspirations than they are now, and how they're going to let Romney move to the center, given that they will believe that the country is with them.
Don't you think it's kind of analogous to how the Obama base feels now? We are also upset that Obama moved to the center, but we're not going to do anything about it. We'll all fall in line to support his re-election. What choice do we have?

I do, think, however, we (the Progressive base) is somewhat less energized by a Romney OR Huntsman candidacy than by the prospect of someone like Rick Perry, Newt, Bachmann or Santorum running.

Much as I'm disinclined to admit it to myself, I really despise Gingrich and Perry. Romney, not so much. Intellectually, I see how bad he would be, but viscerally I'm more detached. Also, I'm not so fired up to re-elect Obama as I was the first time around. If my feelings are indicative of those of a substantial number of voters, this double-edged lack of enthusiasm could spell some trouble for Dems.
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  #27  
Old 12-17-2011, 11:24 PM
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Default Primadonna does not equal "the base"

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Much as I'm disinclined to admit it to myself, I really despise Gingrich and Perry.
Does that disqualify you as a pacifist, or something?

Quote:
Romney, not so much. Intellectually, I see how bad he would be, but viscerally I'm more detached. Also, I'm not so fired up to re-elect Obama as I was the first time around. If my feelings are indicative of those of a substantial number of voters, this double-edged lack of enthusiasm could spell some trouble for Dems.
What do your "feelings" have to do with whether others will vote?
Vote Green Party 2012! Do it for your feelings.
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  #28  
Old 12-18-2011, 04:19 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Don't you think it's kind of analogous to how the Obama base feels now? We are also upset that Obama moved to the center, but we're not going to do anything about it. We'll all fall in line to support his re-election. What choice do we have?
Obama's base is not "progressives." That's one mistake.

Quote:
I do, think, however, we (the Progressive base) is somewhat less energized by a Romney OR Huntsman candidacy than by the prospect of someone like Rick Perry, Newt, Bachmann or Santorum running.
This, on the other hand, is probably true for Dems across the board. It's what I'm admitting too. When it comes down to it, seeing the policy differences, it doesn't make much difference to my actions (I will donate the same amount, volunteer for the campaign anyway), but it is playing into my reading of likely performance among Independents.
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  #29  
Old 12-17-2011, 10:20 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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The fact that you think Romney-Huntsman is remotely possible reiterates that I think you are being dramatically optimistic about how Romney will make political decisions.
Romney Huntsman is, of course, not possible. Romney-Rubio might be, although I think Romney-some evangelical is more likely.
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  #30  
Old 12-17-2011, 11:43 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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I have mixed feelings about the "too bad" part. I agree that Obama would do a lot better against Newt, but what if Newt actually won? Let's say it's 50-50 Obama/Romney and 67-33 Obama-Gingrich. Obama's odds are considerably better against Gingrich, but the worst outcome (Gingrich is the WH) remains a distinct possibility. I could live with President Romney-Huntsman; if Newt wins I'm moving to Pluto.
Who wins the Presidency is more significant as a totem than as a fact in itself. The two strongly related phenomena that I'd argue really matter are, first - how the Presidential race affects the makeup of the Congress ("coattails," to the extent that they exist), and SCOTUS appointments in the next term. Regardless of which of Mitt, Newt, Huntsman, or one among the batshit (R) candidates occupies the Office of the President, the effect will be likely to be equivalently awful. There's very little silver lining to be found in a Romney win, I think.
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  #31  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:03 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Who wins the Presidency is more significant as a totem than as a fact in itself. The two strongly related phenomena that I'd argue really matter are, first - how the Presidential race affects the makeup of the Congress ("coattails," to the extent that they exist), and SCOTUS appointments in the next term. Regardless of which of Mitt, Newt, Huntsman, or one among the batshit (R) candidates occupies the Office of the President, the effect will be likely to be equivalently awful. There's very little silver lining to be found in a Romney win, I think.
I agree. However, I would add that some candidates are more likely to start wars than others. On "Defense," I'd expect continuity from Bush-Obama policies, but Newt (for example) would be a much more dangerous president than either Romney or Obama. He has already promised to name John Bolton his Secretary of State, which would set up a Cheneyesque atmosphere in foreign policy and in the White House in general. War with Iran or Syria (or Honduras! a la Reagan in Granada) becomes much more likely.
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  #32  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:50 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
There's very little silver lining to be found in a Romney win, I think.
Just one more point: Gingrich has also promised to radically overhaul the judiciary, which he views as "grotesquely dictatorial." He also claims the right to overrule the Supreme Court.

AFAIK, no other candidate, including Michelle Bachmann or Rick Perry, has signed on to that level of megalomania.
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  #33  
Old 12-18-2011, 04:23 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Regardless of which of Mitt, Newt, Huntsman, or one among the batshit (R) candidates occupies the Office of the President, the effect will be likely to be equivalently awful. There's very little silver lining to be found in a Romney win, I think.
The silver lining (which I'm not saying one should vote on) is that Romney could probably get done a lot of what Obama cannot, or cannot without faux "socialist!" opposition. Romney's fear of the right makes this less likely, of course, and supposes the Tim Noah analysis that I started out questioning.
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  #34  
Old 12-18-2011, 10:58 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
The silver lining (which I'm not saying one should vote on) is that Romney could probably get done a lot of what Obama cannot, or cannot without faux "socialist!" opposition. Romney's fear of the right makes this less likely, of course, and supposes the Tim Noah analysis that I started out questioning.
Romney's, and that of every other candidate vying for the office (with the exception of Paul, who has his own unique issues), fear of, or frank identification with, the Right - who, this cycle seem particularly unhinged at least from my POV - seems to me to make it very difficult for any of them to accomplish reasonable things if they attain office. I may, admittedly, be overly pessimistic, but I think Romney will feel a lot of constraints on his ability to do constructive things. (Sorry, I can see that that first sentence is a bear, hopefully the meaning is clear. )!
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  #35  
Old 12-18-2011, 02:35 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Romney's, and that of every other candidate vying for the office (with the exception of Paul, who has his own unique issues), fear of, or frank identification with, the Right - who, this cycle seem particularly unhinged at least from my POV - seems to me to make it very difficult for any of them to accomplish reasonable things if they attain office.
I think this is quite possibly true, and I also think his tying himself to the type of foreign policy advisors he has is something to be concerned about. But I still think he governs in a much less extreme way than he has been campaigning.

But you are right that the situation is different now in terms of the constraints that he will likely feel. The problem for "conservatives," however, is that a lot of their force has been because of the anti-Obama (anti-Dem) attitude. I don't think either the Republican establishment that Romney represents (and who are perhaps maintain some control) or the populist right are really as "conservative" as those positions are being defined. They just also largely don't agree with each other on a number of things.
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Old 12-18-2011, 02:42 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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...the situation is different now in terms of the constraints that he will likely feel. The problem for "conservatives," however, is that a lot of their force has been because of the anti-Obama (anti-Dem) attitude. I don't think either the Republican establishment that Romney represents (and who are perhaps maintain some control) or the populist right are really as "conservative" as those positions are being defined. They just also largely don't agree with each other on a number of things.
That's really a very good point. Without the focusing power of a (D) president (a Kenyan, Marxist one at that!) there's very likely to be a fracturing of what increasingly looks like an unstable coalition. Even in a best case scenario, where the (R)'s self-destruct and something reasonable rises from the ashes, I'm very worried about more Alitos (or worse), not to mention another House/Senate/Executive (R) triumvirate for at least the next two years.
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  #37  
Old 12-17-2011, 09:58 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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IIt's more that no matter what words come out of his mouth, it's completely obvious that he's basically a sensible person who will govern as a centrist (like Obama). He will never rock the boat.
And I will reiterate that I don't see how him being sensible but amoral is going to necessarily result in his governing as a centrist. Especially given that you have acknowledged he won't rock the boat. Governing as a centrist will get him primaried in 2016, and would definitely constitute rocking the boat.
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  #38  
Old 12-18-2011, 04:13 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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And I will reiterate that I don't see how him being sensible but amoral is going to necessarily result in his governing as a centrist. Especially given that you have acknowledged he won't rock the boat. Governing as a centrist will get him primaried in 2016, and would definitely constitute rocking the boat.
This assumes that the Tea Party base is actually ideological, and I don't think they are. I think a President McCain would have done most of what allegedly upset them about Obama, and received no criticism.

On the other hand, I agree with your points about George W being the last "moderate" elected, and certainly don't think the bad behavior of the Republicans deserves to be rewarded as the "at least we could get something accomplished" theory would have it.
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  #39  
Old 12-18-2011, 04:18 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

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This assumes that the Tea Party base is actually ideological, and I don't think they are. I think a President McCain would have done most of what allegedly upset them about Obama, and received no criticism.
I can't really fathom how you got to this opinion. Only in the 5 minute attention span of modern American politics can a liberal convince themselves that the Conservative movement has any particular regard for John McCain. I would be disgusted at an Obama agenda under McCain, just as I am disgusted with MANY of McCain's policy initiatives.

John McCain is an egotist, whose only appealing policy views are on foreign matters. He has little credibility with people like me on domestic affairs.
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  #40  
Old 12-18-2011, 04:25 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Blast From the Past (Timothy Noah & Rich Lowry)

Moreover, John McCain is a good example of why people like Romney are so distasteful to Conservatives. The establishment buys the media narrative about "moderates" being necessary, because "conservatives turn of independents". John McCain was Mr. Moderate for about eight years; didn't stop the left and the media from turning him into Franco's reanimated corpse when he ran against a Democrat. And he lost horribly.

Same thing every time. John McCain loses as a squish. Bob Dole lost as a squish. George HW Bush lost as a squish. So thats three squish loses to three squish victories (GW twice and GHW once). And what did the victories gain us? Advancement of the left, regardless.

The establishment has conspired to force Romney on us. The only hope for Restoration of virtue is if the Senate victories are so large that the Congress can govern as a parliament, and have the empty suit named Mitt Romney sign pieces of paper for a living.

If that doesn't happen, and if Romney attempts to "compromise" with the hard left wing, then it is appropriate to primary him. And defeat him. Let the left obediently follow the orders of their party bosses, the GOP will be a player in American politics that holds its politicians accountable for betraying their voters.
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