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  #1  
Old 04-27-2011, 11:29 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

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  #2  
Old 04-27-2011, 11:36 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

Whoa! Hendrik Hertzberg! Awesome!

Nice job, BHTV!

Can't watch 'till tomorrow, sadly.
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  #3  
Old 04-27-2011, 11:53 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

yay, someone worth listening to! thanks, bob!

added: can we get fallows next, please?

also added: how about patrick smith AND fallows in a double-team?
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  #4  
Old 04-28-2011, 08:03 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
yay, someone worth listening to! thanks, bob!

added: can we get fallows next, please?

also added: how about patrick smith AND fallows in a double-team?
Yep, I agree. I may disagree with him, but Hertzberg is one of the more thoughtful liberals. I'd like to hear Fallows on China or Coats on the Civil war.
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  #5  
Old 04-28-2011, 08:10 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcocean View Post
Yep, I agree. I may disagree with him, but Hertzberg is one of the more thoughtful liberals. I'd like to hear Fallows on China or Coats on the Civil war.
+1
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  #6  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:46 AM
ginger baker ginger baker is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

"crazy" really? perhaps they know what their doing? maybe there is a strategy after all? ever think of that?
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  #7  
Old 04-28-2011, 01:24 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

Not sure, but this might be the piece that Bob wrote on the internet in the early days.

Added: it's pretty delightfully nostalgic!!

And prophetic:
Quote:
All these trends point the same way: the present expansion of the Net's
constituency--from hackers and scientists to regular people-- will persist and
may accelerate. You, too, will probably get sucked into the Net before long.
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  #8  
Old 04-28-2011, 01:47 AM
Tara Davis Tara Davis is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

A guy who once worked for a Fundie peanut farmer who ran the economy into the ground while trying to ramp up coal-burning as an answer to the country's energy & environment problems, now calling former speaker Gingrich "crazy."

Yeah... Gingrich may be a rather tone-deaf politician, and (left or right) most people can find a few things they disagree with him about, but crazy?

Okay. Skipping the rest of this one. See you when you've got Mickey back, Bob.
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  #9  
Old 04-28-2011, 03:18 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tara Davis View Post
A guy who once worked for a Fundie peanut farmer who ran the economy into the ground while trying to ramp up coal-burning as an answer to the country's energy & environment problems, now calling former speaker Gingrich "crazy."
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  #10  
Old 04-28-2011, 02:27 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default "Crazy" list

I won't get into the mental health of the 2012 Republican candidates (tempting as it may be), but any short list of Republican extremists with presidential ambitions should definitely include John Bolton.

Not that the 2008 field was any better, with early favorites denying evolution and the eventual presidential candidate singing about bombing Teheran.
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  #11  
Old 04-28-2011, 06:42 AM
jeffmaylortx
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Default Re: "Crazy" list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I won't get into the mental health of the 2012 Republican candidates ....
Not that the 2008 field was any better, with early favorites denying evolution and the eventual presidential candidate singing about bombing Teheran.
Well Republican candidates tend to deny evolution in theory (at least officially) but the Democrats deny it in practice. The Left is in denial about almost every aspect of evolutionary psychology and they are 30 years behind the times in terms of ethnic differences in traits, personality and intelligence.
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  #12  
Old 04-28-2011, 07:19 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: "Crazy" list

"The Left is in denial about almost every aspect of evolutionary psychology and they are 30 years behind the times in terms of ethnic differences in traits, personality and intelligence."

Because they don't embrace Rushtonian nonsense that was discredited in the scientific community more than 40 years ago???!!
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  #13  
Old 04-28-2011, 03:17 AM
CrowsMakeTools CrowsMakeTools is offline
 
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Default Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Hertzberg claims that Bishop Homer Tomlinson, the "King of the World," ran for President of the Theocratic Party in 1972. Not quite true. Bishop Tomlinson died December 5th, 1968, per the obituary in the newspaper of record, the NYT.

Anyway, I found Rick's lumping of the Donald with former House Speaker Gingrich, a person with a record of political achievement and leadership, somewhat irksome and elitist. Gingrich is quirky, and his contradictory statements about Libya certainly demonstrate a reflexive stubbornness and lack of self awareness that would make him a very bad President. But he does have some serious ideas, and he's not a buffoon. Same can be said, I think, of Ron Paul. Putting these people in the same category as Trump, and Bishop Tomlinson, forestalls an important political argument that requires thoughtful engagement.
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  #14  
Old 04-28-2011, 03:22 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools View Post
Putting these people in the same category as Trump, and Bishop Tomlinson, forestalls an important political argument that requires thoughtful engagement.
Rick probably wanted to forstall and forgo thoughtful engagement. He loathes the right.
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  #15  
Old 04-28-2011, 10:22 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Rick probably wanted to forstall and forgo thoughtful engagement. He loathes the right.
It's amazing that we all can be looking at the same thing and seeing entirely different pictures.
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  #16  
Old 04-28-2011, 10:34 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools View Post
Hertzberg claims that Bishop Homer Tomlinson, the "King of the World," ran for President of the Theocratic Party in 1972. Not quite true. Bishop Tomlinson died December 5th, 1968, per the obituary in the newspaper of record, the NYT.

Anyway, I found Rick's lumping of the Donald with former House Speaker Gingrich, a person with a record of political achievement and leadership, somewhat irksome and elitist. Gingrich is quirky, and his contradictory statements about Libya certainly demonstrate a reflexive stubbornness and lack of self awareness that would make him a very bad President. But he does have some serious ideas, and he's not a buffoon. Same can be said, I think, of Ron Paul. Putting these people in the same category as Trump, and Bishop Tomlinson, forestalls an important political argument that requires thoughtful engagement.
That grants a hell of a lot more credit than is due Gingrich, certainly - and I'd say Paul too. "Quirky and reflexively stubborn" is awfully generous toward a guy who thinks direct comparisons between the sitting President of the United States and the Nazis and the Soviet Union is a useful rhetorical gambit. I do love the following quote:

Quote:
It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.
It's easy to go on for pages like this. Gingrich isn't serious. And while he's smart, who could possibly trust his judgment? Whether he's crazy or just a cynic is an answer I don't have. Ron Paul's inadequacies I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.
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  #17  
Old 04-28-2011, 11:42 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
That grants a hell of a lot more credit than is due Gingrich, certainly ...
Agreed. To repeat something I said another time someone held him up as a person worthy of respect:

Quote:
Newt Gingrich was best characterized by Jon Chait (a few iterations of the TNR website ago, so no link, sorry):

Quote:
Newt Gingrich is living proof that you can acquire a reputation as a man of ideas merely by insisting with sufficient repetitiveness that you care deeply about ideas. (It helps to occasionally cite some semi-obscure author as a seminal influence. Actually understanding said author is unnecessary.)
He is, and has been ever since he left office in disgrace, just as much of a huckster as The Donald. He pretends to be considering entering races just to get more donations from the mouth-breathers and to pimp his books and other merch. He does not espouse any beliefs except when they are fashionable. His stances on Libya are just the latest example of many. He won't even stand behind things he said less than a year ago.
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  #18  
Old 04-28-2011, 08:29 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Agreed. To repeat something I said another time someone held him up as a person worthy of respect:

[...]

He is, and has been ever since he left office in disgrace, just as much of a huckster as The Donald. He pretends to be considering entering races just to get more donations from the mouth-breathers and to pimp his books and other merch. He does not espouse any beliefs except when they are fashionable. His stances on Libya are just the latest example of many. He won't even stand behind things he said less than a year ago.
But what's the latest, Alex Pareene?

Quote:
Newt Gingrich would rather keep making money than participate in Fox debate

We're mere days from the very first presidential debate of the 2012 campaign. It is sponsored by the South Carolina Republican Party, and it will air, on May 5, on Fox News. And Newt Gingrich can't go!

The first debate was supposed to belong to Politico, but once it became clear that a combination of Sarah Palin-related anxiety, reluctance to disclose financial information, and fat Fox News paychecks was causing every serious and credible 2012 candidate to delay officially entering the race until the last possible moment, Politico decided to postpone it debate until the fall rather than waste a lovely spring day asking Herman Cain questions for an hour.

Fox, though, figured it would be fine. It even kicked some candidates off the payroll in order to coerce them into the race. A few weeks ago, it confirmed that Newt Gingrich, Ron Paul, Tim Pawlenty, Rick Santorum and Buddy Roemer would attend. That's like two and a half semi-credible candidates!

There's a problem, though. Newt Gingrich may not actually qualify to participate. He still hasn't launched an exploratory committee, because he still refuses to disclose any information about his shady finances. (Enriching himself is one of the primary reasons Newt Gingrich constantly pretends to run for president.)
The rest.
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  #19  
Old 04-28-2011, 09:37 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
But what's the latest, Alex Pareene?

Quote:
Newt Gingrich would rather keep making money than participate in Fox debate

[...]

And then there's this: "Newt and friends blame Obama for inventing, popularizing birtherism."
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  #20  
Old 04-28-2011, 11:05 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Quote:
And then there's this: "Newt and friends blame Obama for inventing, popularizing birtherism."
He dresses and dances like an Indonesian; he was just begging for it. Donald's only human, you know.
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  #21  
Old 04-28-2011, 11:10 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default More of ....

the same, including Sarah (born-to-Tweet) Palin.
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  #22  
Old 04-28-2011, 10:38 AM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools View Post
... Anyway, I found Rick's lumping of the Donald with former House Speaker Gingrich, a person with a record of political achievement and leadership, somewhat irksome and elitist. Gingrich is quirky, and his contradictory statements about Libya certainly demonstrate a reflexive stubbornness and lack of self awareness that would make him a very bad President. But he does have some serious ideas, and he's not a buffoon. Same can be said, I think, of Ron Paul. Putting these people in the same category as Trump, and Bishop Tomlinson, forestalls an important political argument that requires thoughtful engagement.
I think Hertzberg was on the mark. I hear Newt talking too much about the US needing to fight more foreign wars and think he is off the track. Ron Paul has the stage but really has no practical plans for how to govern the country.

I don't think rational, accomplished people want to be bothered with risking all to run for national office. Look how the union thugs and useful left wing idiots are attacking and tormenting the elected representatives in Wisconsin. We are not a united country any more. The fact there are fewer and fewer people of ability who are willing to serve at the national level is evidence of our growing disunity.
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  #23  
Old 04-28-2011, 06:36 AM
jeffmaylortx
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Default Obama is as American as Bob Wright - Oh that's not good

If we are forced to go down the road of a semi-socialist social system, by likes of people like Robert Wright and Obama, then shouldn't we, as citizens, acquire the right to revoke the citizenship of people like Robert Wright? If I am to be required to pay for him and his progeny (and I think we all now how "productive that group will be), then I demand the right to have them forcibly removed from the United States. The only way a truly paternalistic/socialistic system will work is if we can rid it of the looters and traitors - people like Robert Wright ... and others.
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  #24  
Old 04-28-2011, 09:16 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default What a great get!

Looking forward to this.
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  #25  
Old 04-28-2011, 10:27 AM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

Allowing high population states to overwhelm the process of election of a president would, I think, destroy the country. How can people in rural counties have any representation in the central goverment if the urban centers, their populations growing higher and higher from immigration, are able to overwhelm the popular vote talley?

As it is, people in rural areas are being forced to take on the crushing debt burden of the federal government. People in NYC pay many times more to rent their living space than they do in Iowa. Yet individuals from the city and countryside are responsible for equal shares of the national debt. A debt that is manageable to the urban dweller is crushing to a free range person.

Look how the president elected by the democrat states is pressing ahead on these ambiguous foreign wars. Notice how this recent massacre in Afg is not news in the US? The population from the urban centers vote for war, then the burden of fighting that war is born disproportiantly by other areas of the country.
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  #26  
Old 04-28-2011, 11:50 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
Allowing high population states to overwhelm the process of election of a president would, I think, destroy the country. How can people in rural counties have any representation ...
You should go back and listen, and read some of Rick's posts, because you clearly don't understand the core principle. The whole point of the NPV is to remove the winner-take-all aspect regarding individual states and their electoral votes. In a state with a large population, be it California or Texas, the 45 or so percent of people whose votes pretty much never matter in a presidential election under our current system suddenly matter a great deal. Pretending for a moment that those in rural areas are all the conservative Republicans you imagine them to be, they get representation by virtue of, for example, aligning themselves with the rightward-leaning voters of California and New York.
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  #27  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:15 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
You should go back and listen, and read some of Rick's posts, because you clearly don't understand the core principle. ...
just as a thought experiment, is there anything wrong with the majority of the voters in the USA passing a law that allows anyone from other parts of the world to be able to legally immigrate to the US? Or is it wrong for the majority to authorize the spending of $trillions each year in excess of revenue?

another question. If we had one world government, would you structure representation along the lines of 1 person, 1 vote? Where Asia gets 3 billion votes and the US gets 300 million?
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  #28  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:22 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
Or is it wrong for the majority to authorize the spending of $trillions each year in excess of revenue?
Are you asking whether it was wrong for the Republican Party to do what the Republican Party has been doing for 30 years? Why do you suppose it is that conservatives only start howling about deficits when Democrats are president?
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  #29  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:33 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Are you asking whether it was wrong for the Republican Party to do what the Republican Party has been doing for 30 years? Why do you suppose it is that conservatives only start howling about deficits when Democrats are president?
we have never seen deficiits this high for so many years projected into the future. Where I think republicans can be faulted is on our foreign trade policy. Allowing so much light manufacturing to be moved to China.
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  #30  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:25 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
just as a thought experiment, is there anything wrong with the majority of the voters in the USA passing a law that allows anyone from other parts of the world to be able to legally immigrate to the US?
Not that I can see.

Quote:
Or is it wrong for the majority to authorize the spending of $trillions each year in excess of revenue?
Ditto, although here I would not be among the majority supporting this as an ongoing proposition.

Quote:
another question. If we had one world government, would you structure representation along the lines of 1 person, 1 vote? Where Asia gets 3 billion votes and the US gets 300 million?
Sure, why not?
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  #31  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:27 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
...
Sure, why not?
I'm pretty sure they're not real Americans. (And they'll vote en bloc for Socialism!)
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  #32  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:39 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Sure, why not?
Tyranny of the majority is wrong. A nation of people have the right to a country of their own. One group of people, no matter how numerous, should not be able to make decisions that have life altering affects on others.
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  #33  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:54 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
Tyranny of the majority is wrong.
There's a difference between a majority vote (assuming voting goes on regularly) and "tyranny of the majority."

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
A nation of people have the right to a country of their own.
Despite what your "news" sources try to terrify you with, you don't have to worry about one world government happening in your lifetime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
One group of people, no matter how numerous, should not be able to make decisions that have life altering affects on others.
This would have more credibility if you weren't singing the exact opposite tune during the Bush Administration.
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  #34  
Old 04-28-2011, 01:00 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
One group of people, no matter how numerous, should not be able to make decisions that have life altering affects on others.
So then how are we going to solve the problem of unaccountable corporate power? Because massive power concentrated in the hands of a very tiny number of individuals in a small number of corporations has a massive, negative impact on the lives of the American people. You do know that corporations are massive totalitarian bureaucracies, right?

Last edited by TwinSwords; 04-28-2011 at 01:02 PM..
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  #35  
Old 04-30-2011, 01:19 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
You should go back and listen, and read some of Rick's posts, because you clearly don't understand the core principle. The whole point of the NPV is to remove the winner-take-all aspect regarding individual states and their electoral votes. In a state with a large population, be it California or Texas, the 45 or so percent of people whose votes pretty much never matter in a presidential election under our current system suddenly matter a great deal. Pretending for a moment that those in rural areas are all the conservative Republicans you imagine them to be, they get representation by virtue of, for example, aligning themselves with the rightward-leaning voters of California and New York.
Also, we still have the congress.
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  #36  
Old 04-30-2011, 01:31 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Also, we still have the congress.
Zactly. I was always a fan of Howard Dean's 50 State Strategy ("his" such as it is attributed to him) and N.P.V. casts it in stone. It makes me feel all "citizeny" and stuff.
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  #37  
Old 04-28-2011, 10:32 AM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

Throwing the word "crazy" around in such a glib manner could be construed by many as careless and insensitive.
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  #38  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:02 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

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Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
Throwing the word "crazy" around in such a glib manner could be construed by many as careless and insensitive.
"Could be?" "Construed?" "By many?"

Points for passive-aggressiveness, I guess, but why not try saying what you think? And then we can talk about whether the Republican candidates Rick listed as crazy deserve the tag. It's not that interesting to discuss things with someone who purports to be concerned only on behalf of some nebulous others.
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  #39  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:26 PM
DenvilleSteve DenvilleSteve is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
... why not try saying what you think? And then we can talk about whether the Republican candidates Rick listed as crazy deserve the tag. ...
I would not say they are crazy. I could also not say republicans like Trump, Sarah and Paul are capable of running the country. But then I don't think Obama is capable of running the country either. Do democrats honestly think the country will prosper under his leadership for another 5 years? Why is he sending those american soldiers in afg to their grave? How can he be so detached to allow that to happen? And the deficit spending. You are arguably crazy to think the deficit spending that is happening today because of medicaid, medicare, social security, ssdi, food stamps is "investment in the future".
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  #40  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:34 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve View Post
[...]
If you actually expect to engage me, you're going to have to learn some self-discipline about staying on topic. Stop throwing everything you have against the wall, hoping something will stick. Or, continue babbling your talking points of the moment, but count on being ignored.
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