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  #1  
Old 11-01-2010, 12:43 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)



--Tom Toles
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  #2  
Old 11-01-2010, 01:22 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default congrats

Congrats to Bob and company for hanging in there.
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  #3  
Old 11-01-2010, 01:54 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: congrats

I'd like to add congrats as well. And thanks. I love Bloggingheads.tv
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  #4  
Old 11-01-2010, 01:59 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Ok..i'm about 10 minutes in and Yusef Islam's presence at the Rally for Sanity was glossed over. The man did call for the death of Salman Rushdie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Ste...Salman_Rushdie and although he tries to back track now, he STILL says he is perfectly comfortable with the state killing someone for blasphemy--its on his web site at this moment: http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/talks_cw.html#18

I think it is quite significant that this man was celebrated and celebrating on the stage at the "Rally for Sanity."
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  #5  
Old 11-01-2010, 02:25 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

I hate it when Mickey says things like this. It's hard to keep track of how many unproven assertions are in that sentence. Is "the middle" alienated by Obama? Would they have responded better to a different message? Was support for immigration reform actually the heart of Obama's appeal to the base? Who knows? Who cares? The important thing to remember is that pre-1960's-style liberalism was good and post-1960's-style liberalism is bad. Mickey is falling into Lambchop mode here, I think.
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  #6  
Old 11-01-2010, 02:29 AM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Can't say that I agree with Mickey that card check is a "hot button" issue in this election cycle...
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  #7  
Old 11-01-2010, 02:37 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: congrats

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I'd like to add congrats as well. And thanks. I love Bloggingheads.tv
Same here. And thanks also to all of the contributors -- diavloggers and commenters -- who help make it what it is.

DEPLOY THE MOOSE.
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  #8  
Old 11-01-2010, 02:41 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Oh ... no he didn't...

... He just wants you to concede that expressing fears about Muslims (you know ... that white garb and that head-wear worn by students in New Jersey) is warranted. Your intransigence is PC crap... as far as he is concerned.
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  #9  
Old 11-01-2010, 02:45 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

More pet vlogging! The CPBP is pleased, and Frasier and Milo are adorable.
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  #10  
Old 11-01-2010, 02:54 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Darn. I liked the hoodie. Perhaps because it might be first frost tonight (and so I am wearing my hoodie (in a rather stunning shade of eggplant, if I do say so myself)), I saw it as Bob channeling President Carter, and a hoodie beats a cardigan any day of the week.
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  #11  
Old 11-01-2010, 02:56 AM
Tara Davis Tara Davis is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Ok..i'm about 10 minutes in and Yusef Islam's presence at the Rally for Sanity was glossed over. The man did call for the death of Salman Rushdie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Ste...Salman_Rushdie and although he tries to back track now, he STILL says he is perfectly comfortable with the state killing someone for blasphemy--its on his web site at this moment: http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/talks_cw.html#18

I think it is quite significant that this man was celebrated and celebrating on the stage at the "Rally for Sanity."
I must admit that I'm a bit torn.

On one hand, I think Yusef Islam's stated position on fatwa killings is nakedly evil.

On the other hand, "Tea For The Tillerman" and "Catch Bull At Four" are two of my all-time favorite albums. That monster was once responsible for bringing a lot of happiness into my life.
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  #12  
Old 11-01-2010, 03:06 AM
Tara Davis Tara Davis is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

mc chris concurs, for what it's worth.
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  #13  
Old 11-01-2010, 03:20 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Disagree ...

... with Bob here.

While I will not hold "the media" solely responsible, I think they (I will pretend we can refer to them as a single entity from now on, for shorthand) deserve a lot more blame than he does. Yes, there is something to Bob's claim that "they respond to market forces." But one of the ways those forces work is obsessing over ratings numbers from last week, which among other things tends to mean that the people in charge of teevee shows, radio shows, op-ed pages, and even blogs see that X worked, so this week, to gain an edge over our competition, let's go with X+1. This often has the effect of making what was just barely acceptable a short while ago into the new meh, and so things just keep getting ramped up.

Sorry, but people, as assembled into herds, tend to consume more candy and circuses than is good for them. Especially if you don't make any effort to offer them anything else that's good for them and tastes good. And the younger people increasingly don't get any chance to know that there is even, theoretically, any alternative -- they think THE way to behave on teevee is to be a blowhard, and that's how you make it big.

Further, at some point, you can't just wave your Magic Market Forces Get Out Of Jail Free card. With power, with a big megaphone, and with access to and control over the nation's airwaves (and cabling infrastructure, etc.), you carry more responsibility. You can't just keep ducking this with bromides about Teh Stockholders, or mealy-mouthing like "hey, they'd just buy it somewhere else." There is such a thing as the public trust, however hard it might be to define.

Or enforce. And I got no good ideas about that. So all I can do is appeal to people's better angels, and if the people in charge of programming don't have any better angels, then I appeal to the rest of us to find some who do. We got a bunch of advertisers to stop running ads on Beck's show, so I know the principle exists.
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  #14  
Old 11-01-2010, 03:49 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Doughmick

Oh lord. Now Mickey is parroting Jonah Goldberg.

(h/t: brucds and Mark Kleiman)

==========

[Added] And then a few minutes afterward, it's non-stop praise for tax cuts. After bashing the stimulus. Which by the way was 1/3 tax cuts. And no, it wasn't a "trillion dollars." Maybe if your Republican heroes had let it be, we might have a bit better jobs situation by now. (And sorry, $213 billion is not acceptable as a rounding error, if that's what you think. And what would your fiscal responsibimility teabagger friends say to that?)

Add to this Zeke's dingalink.

If I hadn't already completely written the new Mickey off, I sure would now. It is one sad thing about this anniversary -- I remember when I used to think a lot more of him.

[Added2] I guess we can give a few points for honesty. Better late than never!

[Added3] Does it get worse? Yes, it gets worse, around 48:30. Your cryptoracism is leaking out, Mickey. You loved Bob when he talked about race as it made Obama look bad, and you call foul when Bob talked about race as is makes your friends D'Souza and Gingrich look bad.

And seriously? You're claiming race-tinged attacks on Obama only started recently, due to high unemployment? And that people only recently started calling him a Muslin, because they're pissed about the economy?

And around 60:00, you're saying it's okay to be scared of Muslin garb, even though you admit you don't know what it is?

And three more questions: Are you still lobbying on behalf of Ann Coulter to make your card-check hysteria seem fresh? And was it your conscious intent to ruin any good feeling associated with the Bhtv anniversary? And when are you moving your blog from Newsweek to Clownhall?
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 11-01-2010 at 06:00 AM..
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  #15  
Old 11-01-2010, 04:39 AM
Kevin Kevin is offline
 
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Default Re: congrats

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I'd like to add congrats as well. And thanks. I love Bloggingheads.tv
Congratulations! Charming! Humorous! Erudite!
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  #16  
Old 11-01-2010, 05:06 AM
otto otto is offline
 
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Default Social Network

The Eduardo / Mickey comparison actually occurred to me after watching the movie. Which shows I follow bh.tv a bit too much.
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  #17  
Old 11-01-2010, 05:59 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Thanks for the hours of conversation. The wealth of books and articles I've read, the links I accessed, and the discussions I've read and participated in prove the value of this resource. And then, there's just Frazier.
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  #18  
Old 11-01-2010, 07:44 AM
Bloggin' Noggin Bloggin' Noggin is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Happy Birthday, Blogging Heads! Hard to believe it's been 5 years already!

Mickey - two quick points:

1. Even pork is stimulus. You get stimulus just by paying people to dig holes and fill them back in, or by tossing money out of helicopters. Obama wanted to get some things we collectively needed anyway out of the stimulus. When the Republicans charge "pork", they are usually criticizing this attempt to spend on collective projects rather than just sending the money back to voters (especially the rich) in tax cuts. Of course there's room to criticize this or that project, but a) I've yet to hear any evidence that the stimulus mostly went to "pork" and b) pork is still stimulus -- the criticism is directed not at the stimulus qua stimulus, but qua independently valuable project.

2. Have you forgotten all the people who thought Clinton was a socialist (not to mention a murderer) last time around? The right-wing fringe freaks out every time we have a democrat in the White House. Same thing happened with Franklin Roosevelt, for that matter -- enough people were on his side though (mainly due to circumstances) that he could safely play the populist card and welcome the hatred of the right (who hadn't yet learned how to hide their money behind a bunch of nutty senior citizens in powdered wigs).
The teaparty is probably more visible and more of an obvious mass phenomenon, but the Clinton era was at the very beginning of the internet age -- we're much further along now. Also Clinton's economy did start off sluggish, but it was nowhere near 9.6 percent unemployment.

Mickey tells us that Obama could have signalled that he wasn't a socialist etc. if he were more experienced (less of an affirmative action baby), but look at Clinton's record. How well did he signal? He started from a smaller majority and yet still lost a similar number of seats.
Having a senior moment there, Mickey?
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  #19  
Old 11-01-2010, 07:46 AM
Mattfugazi Mattfugazi is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Before there was Grinder, there was Manhunt.net, before Manhunt, there was gay.com, before gay.com, there were AOL and IRC chatrooms. The only new aspect is the involvement of cellphones.
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  #20  
Old 11-01-2010, 08:13 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Congrats Bob and Mickey and thanks for starting a great site.

Nice to see Mickey in the celebration that those who have clamored for your exile from BhTV at the same time they've tried to project intolerance onto others have laid low so far.

'Card-Check' may not be a hot button issue but it is very important because Obama's policies including the stimulus and the governemnt takeover of health care and GM are dead set on increasing union membership/rewarding unions and the political contributions that go with it. That unions are still funnelling money to support the same people they negotiate contracts with still seems to be a major disconnect for those who think it's a good idea.

After reading much on the Rally to Restore Fatwa (Bob is completely unaware of Y Islam, which kind of in-a-nutshell explains the depth of his knowledge on Islam in America), it appears the final verdict is that Beck's rally had much better audio technicians while Stewart's rally was much better at getting the advertisers' messages to the customer base errrr, attendees. Also nice to see that the group preaching tolerance was threatening people with cameras on the national mall - ya can't make this stuff up.

As to Olbermann's inclusion in the clips, it was curious that Stewart's montage (as far as I know) did not include Bill Maher and Al Franken. I guess it was professional courtesy.

People should just admit the main message Stewart was trying to get out, his rally was presented as a contrast to the 'extreme' of the Beck rally and that the problem in Washington was that not enough republicans were signing on to Obama's nanny state agenda.

Bob - lol - the lefties still go beserk without reason here. Look at the reaction to the Amy Wax/Glenn Loury dialogue. After something like six or seven pages of mass delusion, the lefty groupthink came to the brilliant conclusion that Wax's opinions and everyone who agreed with her (including curiously John McWhorter, Bill Cosby and LLoyd Marcus) were the result of 'whites wanting to stick it to black people'. Incredible, no?

Bob encapsulates the complete cluelessness of the left on the economy by promoting the idea that businesses should be hiring workers they don't need. He makes it worse by saying the answer to the problem is to add to the huge imbalance on public sector v private sector hiring (and the huge benefit costs to the taxpayers that are decimating the fed, state etc budgets). Please.

So much here and only halfway through.....off to work!
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  #21  
Old 11-01-2010, 08:15 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Did Bob really say "that's probably true" when Mickey said that the Tea Partiers wanted to repeal Obamacare?

Bob, you need to get out more.
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  #22  
Old 11-01-2010, 08:39 AM
Mannish Boy Mannish Boy is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Bob is my hero
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  #23  
Old 11-01-2010, 09:01 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tara Davis View Post
I must admit that I'm a bit torn.

On one hand, I think Yusef Islam's stated position on fatwa killings is nakedly evil.

On the other hand, "Tea For The Tillerman" and "Catch Bull At Four" are two of my all-time favorite albums. That monster was once responsible for bringing a lot of happiness into my life.
Hey, baby, it's a wild world.
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  #24  
Old 11-01-2010, 09:21 AM
Simon Willard Simon Willard is offline
 
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Default Re: congrats

Congratulations!
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  #25  
Old 11-01-2010, 09:33 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Grinder and Grinders.

As a heterosexual man, I find the 'hookup culture' to be utterly revolting...Sme thing with 'Grinder', a site I hadn't heard of before Mickey mentioned it.
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  #26  
Old 11-01-2010, 09:57 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

It's absurd to say there's no evidence of creeping socialism when Obama just rammed through a move that inexorably moves our health care system toward a socialist model.
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  #27  
Old 11-01-2010, 10:01 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloggin' Noggin View Post
Have you forgotten all the people who thought Clinton was a socialist (not to mention a murderer) last time around? ...The teaparty is probably more visible and more of an obvious mass phenomenon, but the Clinton era was at the very beginning of the internet age -- we're much further along now. Also Clinton's economy did start off sluggish, but it was nowhere near 9.6 percent unemployment.
The Clinton era was also coincidental with Limbaugh going national with his radio program.

Bob doesn't understand what drives the anger on the right but that is because he is on the left. For the record, those who are on the right don't buy that Obama inherited the problems he has because he continually blames the republicans for them. "The result of eight years fo failed policy...They drove the car into the ditch and now they want the keys..." He never mentions the darlings of the housing collapse, for instance, those who were overseeing Fannie and Freddie and all of the federal regulators. I think if he had accepted at least some of the blame on behalf of the members of his party, reasonable people on the right would be more willing to say he is not to blame for unemployment, etc.

On illegal immigration...how about if we just stop the benefits? education and health care.

I agree that this election about stopping the democrats.

As for sending Clintonian signals. Clinton has proven it is possible to simultaneously attend the rally of a democrat candidate and negotiate for his demise. That's talent!

Mickey stipulates that Obama's problem is not that he's black, but that he's green. Bob just can't give up the meme that the right criticizes Obama because he is black. Bob bases his opinion about the right on a study he did which included one guy who lives a mile from his house.
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Last edited by badhatharry; 11-01-2010 at 10:16 AM..
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  #28  
Old 11-01-2010, 10:03 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
It's absurd to say there's no evidence of creeping socialism when Obama just rammed through a move that inexorably moves our health care system toward a socialist model.
But Mickey likes the creepingness of that. That's why he didn't list it.
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  #29  
Old 11-01-2010, 10:06 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Grinder and Grinders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
As a heterosexual man, I find the 'hookup culture' to be utterly revolting...Sme thing with 'Grinder', a site I hadn't heard of before Mickey mentioned it.
Ted Haggard and Larry Craig agree with you.
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  #30  
Old 11-01-2010, 10:17 AM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Bob Wright's mug

Not to worry, Bob, that Tom Toles characterture is so not you!
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  #31  
Old 11-01-2010, 10:37 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
...For the record, those who are on the right don't buy that Obama inherited the problems he has because he continually blames the republicans for them...
The economy collapsed in 2007. Job losses continued until mid/late 2009. Bush was president, and there had been Democrats running Congress for a year and a half (out of the prior thirteen years), when that collapse occurred. It took Obama a mere nine months to stop the bleeding in regard to jobs.

So what's the argument that Obama didn't inherit the problems, again? I'm just not so clear on that claim.

It's a neat trick, though - running things into the toilet, and then blaming the people stuck cleaning up after you for not getting the job done fast enough.
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  #32  
Old 11-01-2010, 11:08 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
The economy collapsed in 2007. Job losses continued until mid/late 2009. Bush was president, and there had been Democrats running Congress for a year and a half (out of the prior thirteen years), when that collapse occurred. It took Obama a mere nine months to stop the bleeding in regard to jobs.

So what's the argument that Obama didn't inherit the problems, again? I'm just not so clear on that claim.

It's a neat trick, though - running things into the toilet, and then blaming the people stuck cleaning up after you for not getting the job done fast enough.
I didn't say he didn't inherit problems it's that he never fails to blame only the republicans, which is inaccurate. Further, I can see that you are not clear on that claim and never will be for that matter. Further still, it's nice that you added variety with the toilet metaphor. I was getting sick of the car in the ditch.
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  #33  
Old 11-01-2010, 11:16 AM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Mickey overlooks the Dukakis drubbing that came after the Mondale drubbing.
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  #34  
Old 11-01-2010, 11:18 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I didn't say he didn't inherit problems it's that he never fails to blame only the republicans, which is inaccurate. Further, I can see that you are not clear on that claim and never will be for that matter. Further still, it's nice that you added variety with the toilet metaphor. I was getting sick of the car in the ditch.
Blame only the Republicans? This is politics, and they were in charge. Look at the difference between 2001 (during the handoff from Clinton to Bush) and 2009 (Bush to Obama.) What happened in the meantime? The better part of a trillion spent on a strategically idiotic war. Enormous tax cuts ballooning the deficit further. The federal regulatory apparatus corrupted. The banking system allowed to run without adult supervision. And then the financial collapse.

Who ya gonna blame?
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Last edited by AemJeff; 11-01-2010 at 11:26 AM..
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  #35  
Old 11-01-2010, 11:48 AM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

"Reptilian fears" was the best-laugh high spot of the first 57 minutes.
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  #36  
Old 11-01-2010, 11:52 AM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Male Muslims do have headgear related to being Muslim, so far as what I've witnessed.
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  #37  
Old 11-01-2010, 12:08 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

"Grinder" sounds like descriptions I heard of NYC bathhouses before AIDS.
I had the impression that AIDS killed that bathhouse culture.
It sounds like AIDS cocktail remedies that enabled so many people to survive with HIV have also reduced the fear of the virus to the point where this sort of carelessness is making a comeback.
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  #38  
Old 11-01-2010, 12:10 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Morning Joe, the Lehrer Newshour and C-Span match Bloggingheads' civility.
So does the Daily Show, by the way.
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  #39  
Old 11-01-2010, 12:22 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

I attended the Rally for Sanity via a free Huffington bus. Arianna (sp?) Huffington was the sweetest and most generous hostess. It was a wonderful act of kindness.
The rally was wonderful, though I couldn't see or hear it so well because there were so many people there and the sound system wasn't so great. But we were all thrilled to be there to support sanity in our political process.
When I got home, I watched the whole thing on the C-Span web site (the last 2 hours that began when Jon Stewart first came on stage at 1:00 PM). It was funny and beautifully written and performed with a wonderful underlying message. Stewart's speech at the end was serious while well-balanced by touches of humor. He & Colbert are compassionate geniuses.

http://www.cspan.com/Watch/Media/201...ashington.aspx
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  #40  
Old 11-01-2010, 12:34 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Quinquennial Edition (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Father Guido Sarducci's benediction at the start of the Stewart-Colbert part of the Rally for Sanity was wonderful, as were so many parts of and the whole of the rally.
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