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  #1  
Old 08-27-2008, 10:34 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Reunited

In this diavlog I said that William Ayers' father, Thomas Ayers, was a "big rich lawyer." While Thomas Ayers was a pillar of the Chicago establishment (he served as CEO of Commonwealth Edison), which may have helped his son's wife Bernardine Dohrn get a job at a big rich law firm, Thomas Ayers does not seem to have been a lawyer himself. I regret talking so sloppily, especially during moose-deployment. ... Here is a Michael Barone article explaining the situation, and arguing that in Chicago geneology is indeed more important than in other towns.

- Mickey Kaus

Last edited by Sang; 08-27-2008 at 10:54 AM..
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  #2  
Old 08-27-2008, 11:10 AM
Andrya6 Andrya6 is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

This has nothing to do with this diavlog (I won't be able to listen until after work today) BUT I owe you, Mickey, a huge apology. Earlier this year, I put some major snark on you about your pursuit of the John Edwards rumor. I went so far as to insinuate that you were motivated by pro-Republican bias. Obviously, you were right- and more than that, you were protecting the Dems from a lethal unidentified risk. If Edwards had been the VP nominee (unlikely but possible) Republican oppo research would have found out about this (Edwards does't seem to have been careful at all).
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  #3  
Old 08-27-2008, 11:40 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrya6 View Post
This has nothing to do with this diavlog (I won't be able to listen until after work today) BUT I owe you, Mickey, a huge apology. Earlier this year, I put some major snark on you about your pursuit of the John Edwards rumor. I went so far as to insinuate that you were motivated by pro-Republican bias. Obviously, you were right- and more than that, you were protecting the Dems from a lethal unidentified risk. If Edwards had been the VP nominee (unlikely but possible) Republican oppo research would have found out about this (Edwards does't seem to have been careful at all).
Hmmm... If that was the intention, wouldn't it have been more sensible, discreet and effective to send the information to the Democratic Party leadership directly and privately? The public display hints at having the general public as an audience and not the Democratic party.
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  #4  
Old 08-27-2008, 12:03 PM
Dee Sharp Dee Sharp is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

People only pray for relief when there is some hope that their prayers can be acted upon. I assumed that our Mickeylessness was unavoidable, and simply waited.
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  #5  
Old 08-27-2008, 12:19 PM
xjudson xjudson is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Not to worry. The polls are way off. Cell phones are not polled. You are missing the state polls as well. Obama will win and win comfortably.
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  #6  
Old 08-27-2008, 12:24 PM
tottoritodd tottoritodd is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

I'm glad to be part of this community. It has been great watching smart debate. I hope I can add some thoughts without making an ass of myself.

That said did Robert Wright say?:

"Republicans are these masterful inverters of reality"?(23:45 ish)

Wow! I'm not the biggest Republican out there, but isn't the crisis in Georgia real? McCain response wasn't perfect, but wasn't it a real response? I believe Obama responded with the typical left response of lets all get along.

I disagree A LOT with republicans, but to me the always seem to have a real response. That's why I can't vote for a Democrat. The world is not kindergarten. Even if you are wrong I would rather have an adult response.

Thanks for the chance to add my opinion
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  #7  
Old 08-27-2008, 12:37 PM
Craig McGillivary Craig McGillivary is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Mickey Kaus believes is free trade and open markets. He doesn't believe in sacrificing economic growth for economic equality. So when he talks about how immigration hurts some workers I question his motives. I don't think Mickey is a racist, but he wants politicians to legitimize a movement which holds that immigrants are taking our jobs and skrewing up our country. The anti-immigration movement seeks to use for political advantage the fear of other cultures and communities that has been a part of human culture from the beginning. I support free trade but as bad as protectionism is I can understand it as the service of narrow special interests which has always been a part of our politics. The anti-immigration movement is worse than protectionism because it attempts to be a broad based movement against people I know who just want to work here and make a better life for themselves.
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  #8  
Old 08-27-2008, 12:44 PM
EliasCepeda EliasCepeda is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Mr. Kaus showed his ignorance in calling the Obama's respective community work as "bs jobs". Mrs. Obama, for one, did some solid work with an effective organization in "Public Allies" and by all knowing accounts she took her work at the University of Chicago very seriously and has been effective.

It would be one thing for Mr. Kaus to have some first hand knowledge of the successes and failures of these organizations, departments, centers, etc. that the Obamas have done work with and then make a criticism based on that. But it's pretty clear that he made a value judgement without any real knowledge of this particular topic.
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  #9  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:02 PM
JerseyBoy JerseyBoy is offline
 
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Default I'm bemused

Doesn't "bemuse" pretty much mean what Mickey says it doesn't mean?
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  #10  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:20 PM
ogieogie ogieogie is offline
 
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Default Re: I'm bemused

Googled "define:bemused," got:

Definitions of bemused on the Web:

means "bewildered" or "lost in thought": George was bemused by the unexpected ending to the movie.
http://www.alphadictionary.com/artic...sed_words.html

deeply absorbed in thought; "as distant and bemused as a professor listening to the prattling of his freshman class"; "lost in thought"; "a ...
baffled: perplexed by many conflicting situations or statements; filled with bewilderment; "obviously bemused by his questions"; "bewildered and confused"; "a cloudy and confounded philosopher"; "just a mixed-up kid"; "she felt lost on the first day of school"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

deeply thoughtful; preoccupied; perplexed and bewildered
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bemused
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  #11  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:26 PM
Xelgaex Xelgaex is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

I for one missed Mickey. He and Bob have a chemistry that was lacking in the replacements.
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  #12  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:28 PM
Exeus99 Exeus99 is offline
 
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Default Wright's IQ (call)

Wright emphatically assures Kaus and viewers that Sen. Biden is not stupid here but makes sure Prof. Althouse and viewers are aware that, well, we just can't be SURE about Justice Thomas here.

Now, no standard is given of course, and in the 'vlog with Prof. Althouse Wright asserts the truism that "we all make intellectual judgements about people," so I wonder: given that Wright is convinced that Obama is smarter than Thomas and that Obama is smarter than Biden, who does Wright think is smarter, Thomas or Biden?
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Last edited by Exeus99; 08-27-2008 at 05:06 PM.. Reason: typo patrol
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  #13  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:30 PM
Namazu Namazu is offline
 
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Default The Obama/Ayers Education Project Revealed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16pjS4OYtbo
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  #14  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:34 PM
Namazu Namazu is offline
 
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Default Apologies to Mickey

Had I known Mickey was taking the month off to work on his Pulitzer, I would have never made those snarky comments about his work ethic. I hope the committee will recognize his achievements during the past month, I stand corrected, and it will never happen again.
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  #15  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:39 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Quote:
Originally Posted by tottoritodd View Post
I disagree A LOT with republicans, but to me the always seem to have a real response. That's why I can't vote for a Democrat. The world is not kindergarten. Even if you are wrong I would rather have an adult response.

Thanks for the chance to add my opinion
Your opinion is very welcome, but always subject to rebuttal.

You talk about a real response. What do you mean? Is that a response that is not fake? Something that you could interpret as well defined, with a clear direction, and perhaps that you would expect, because of the degree of certainty that it implies, that would be followed by appropriate action? For example, an action such as starting a war, I gather. And you also say that you prefer this kind of response, which you call adult, even if it's wrong. Does that make sense to you?

You talk about kindergarten responses (all people getting along), versus adult responses (the main characteristic being that of "strong stance"?, even if wrong). Why don't you consider continuing your reasoning along the lines of psychological development. It is known that children see the world as black and white. Within this view, everything is either this or that, quite categorical and without ambiguity. This view prompts responses that are strong and well defined, ready for action, although there may not be much analysis or examination of the complexity of the situation or the consequences of various possible actions. They can very easily be wrong views that appear to be strong and well defined. I think that's exactly what you like.

With maturity, you start to see that there is no black and white. You start to grasp the complexity and dynamic interaction of "systems". You may realize that any action taken now may lead to innumerable consequences. At that stage of development, it is clear that when a serious political situation arises, in order to make a judgment and a decision about action, you need to examine the situation carefully, seek experts' advice and engage in a complex process of deliberation. If any political figure has reached this much more mature stage of development, and they are asked to give an early response to an emerging problem, it seems wise that the person will communicate a general principle which will be guiding the decision process without volunteering details that haven't been examined yet. Such principle may be to keep peace, to find consensus, to negotiate or compromise.

My point is that you may be confused about what mature and immature is, and, in fact, from that perspective, they are the opposite of what you think.

By the way, it is unlikely, that kindergartners will talk about "getting along". They are more likely to dress in customs and pretend they are Superman. Just like McCain does. With the war hero/POW spin of course...
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  #16  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:51 PM
gwlaw99 gwlaw99 is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Your opinion is very welcome, but always subject to rebuttal.

You talk about a real response. What do you mean? Is that a response that is not fake? Something that you could interpret as well defined, with a clear direction, and perhaps that you would expect, because of the degree of certainty that it implies, that would be followed by appropriate action? For example, an action such as starting a war, I gather. And you also say that you prefer this kind of response, which you call adult, even if it's wrong. Does that make sense to you?

You talk about kindergarten responses (all people getting along), versus adult responses (the main characteristic being that of "strong stance"?, even if wrong). Why don't you consider continuing your reasoning along the lines of psychological development. It is known that children see the world as black and white. Within this view, everything is either this or that, quite categorical and without ambiguity. This view prompts responses that are strong and well defined, ready for action, although there may not be much analysis or examination of the complexity of the situation or the consequences of various possible actions. They can very easily be wrong views that appear to be strong and well defined. I think that's exactly what you like.

With maturity, you start to see that there is no black and white. You start to grasp the complexity and dynamic interaction of "systems". You may realize that any action taken now may lead to innumerable consequences. At that stage of development, it is clear that when a serious political situation arises, in order to make a judgment and a decision about action, you need to examine the situation carefully, seek experts' advice and engage in a complex process of deliberation. If any political figure has reached this much more mature stage of development, and they are asked to give an early response to an emerging problem, it seems wise that the person will communicate a general principle which will be guiding the decision process without volunteering details that haven't been examined yet. Such principle may be to keep peace, to find consensus, to negotiate or compromise.

My point is that you may be confused about what mature and immature is, and, in fact, from that perspective, they are the opposite of what you think.

By the way, it is unlikely, that kindergartners will talk about "getting along". They are more likely to dress in customs and pretend they are Superman. Just like McCain does. With the war hero/POW spin of course...
This sounds exactly like one of those automated responses you can generate on the internet.
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  #17  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:57 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlaw99 View Post
This sounds exactly like one of those automated responses you can generate on the internet.
Oops... You caught me.

Could you elaborate, please?
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2008, 02:14 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Hmmm... If that was the intention, wouldn't it have been more sensible, discreet and effective to send the information to the Democratic Party leadership directly and privately?
A couple years ago, a concerned person notified House Republican leaders that Mark Foley was acting inappropriately towards congressional pages. Their response was to ignore it and hope it went away. It didn't, and (surprise!) it became public knowledge right before the 2006 election, helping the Democrats take control of both Houses of Congress.

I don't think the Democratic leadership is any smarter. They would have brushed the Edwards story under the rug and hoped nothing came of it (see also Clinton, Bill).
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  #19  
Old 08-27-2008, 02:22 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thus Spoke Elvis View Post
A couple years ago, a concerned person notified House Republican leaders that Mark Foley was acting inappropriately towards congressional pages. Their response was to ignore it and hope it went away. It didn't, and (surprise!) it became public knowledge right before the 2006 election, helping the Democrats take control of both Houses of Congress.

I don't think the Democratic leadership is any smarter. They would have brushed the Edwards story under the rug and hoped nothing came of it (see also Clinton, Bill).
Two thoughts:

1. In the example you gave, was the concerned person part of the media?

2. In regards to Edwards, was the private route at least tried first?

If any of the answers to the above questions is "No", we can't use your example as a reasonable precedent.

If both answers are "Yes", we may have a discussion.
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2008, 02:22 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlaw99 View Post
This sounds exactly like one of those automated responses you can generate on the internet.
You mean the sentences parse, but there's no semantic content? It seems to me that there was a pretty clear argument framed vs. simplistic, Manichean points of view evident in what she said.

Yours was a pretty random sort of thing to have said in response.
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  #21  
Old 08-27-2008, 02:47 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Mickey goes to the coffee well without satisfaction
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  #22  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default No way, no how, No Mickey

No way, no watching, no listening, no more Mickey
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  #23  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:10 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default A man has got to know his limitations...

... A face made for radio
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  #24  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:13 PM
del del is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Hosannah! I think one compromise between what Bob and Mickey want Obama to do is to focus on "defending an America that's stretched too thin." Obama could pay lip service to a fence and securing our borders, but beyond that he could avoid sounding unelectably dovish by picking a popular and relatively inexpensive hawkish program like ballistic missile defense and saying that that has a bigger bang for the buck than a trillion dollar war. Similarly, while I don't know if he can go too soft on standing up to Russia, I'd love to hear him say that we just don't have the troops to get involved in a civil war in, say, Darfur, and point out that we could prevent millions of people in Africa from getting malaria for a fraction of that price . . . more generally, he could sell the "burden sharing" aspects of his multilateralism . . . let the UN pay for it, let Europe pay for it, etc . . .
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  #25  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:17 PM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: Wright's IQ (call)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exeus99 View Post
Wright emphatically assures Kaus and viewers that Sen. Biden is not stupid here but of course makes sure Prof. Althouse and viewers are aware that, well, we just can't be SURE about Justice Thomas here.

Now, no standard is given of course, and in the 'vlog with Prof. Althouse Wright asserts the truism that "we all make intellectual judgements about people," so I wonder: given that Wright is convinced that Obama is smarter that Thomas and that Obama is smarter than Biden, who does Wright think is smarter, Thomas or Biden?
Wouldn't everyone say Thomas?

As much as I wish that intelligence were everything in politics, it obviously isn't. Ain't. That dog don't hunt?
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  #26  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:17 PM
Morningsider Morningsider is offline
 
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Default Re: I'm bemused

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyBoy View Post
Doesn't "bemuse" pretty much mean what Mickey says it doesn't mean?
Perhaps Mickey was confused by the fact that "amused" and "confused" rhyme. Bemused is more like a cross between "bewildered" and "confused", rather than "bewildered" and "amused". See here.
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  #27  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:24 PM
Morningsider Morningsider is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Does Bob agree with Mickey about the teacher's unions? This may have already happened, but I'm interested in hearing somebody disagree with Mickey's views on education reform.
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  #28  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:24 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: No way, no how, No Mickey

Since you won't have the privilege of hearing it, Bob made mention of your assessment of Michelle Obama's speech. No details... maybe he was hoping to trigger a reaction by Mickey to the very mention of your "Wonderperson" name.

Mickey said he is for Obama because it will trigger a Republican backlash against immigration reform in the 2010 elections. Same as it ever was.
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  #29  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:24 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default What does "Yes" mean in Mickeyspeak?

Wherein Mickey pleads guilty by reason of he didn't do it.
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  #30  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:33 PM
del del is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Just occurred to me that another harmlessly hawkish sound bite for Obama could involve playing the China card . . . "while my opponent wants to keep borrowing money from the Chinese so we can stay in Iraq for 100 years and keep South Ossetia under Georgian control, the Chinese are taking our interest payments and investing in 21st century weapons to challenge us . . .so it's precisely because I do take real threats to America seriously that I think we have to prioritize . . ."
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  #31  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:43 PM
PandoraHope PandoraHope is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Everybody knew (Mickey said as much), but they were unwilling to do anything.

Plus this kind of thing IS journalists' job. what are they for else?
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  #32  
Old 08-27-2008, 03:47 PM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: Ayers and Chicago

I wanted it to sting a little when Mickey said my home town is small enough to have a nepotism problem (I'll tastefully leave out the Bush clan, the Gores, the Clintons, and just go quietly along with the idea that it's our local problem), but it doesn't move me.

From that serious-sounding USN essay linked above, here's the important paragraph where all the silly comes spilling out:

An unrepentant terrorist, who bragged of bombing the U.S. Capitol and the Pentagon, was a fit associate. Ayers evidently helped Obama gain insider status in Chicago civic life and politics—how much, we can't be sure unless the Richard J. Daley Library opens the CAC archive. But most American politicians would not have chosen to associate with a man with Ayers's past or of Ayers's beliefs. It's something voters might reasonably want to take into account.

As someone younger than Obama and a lifelong Chicagoan, I'm going to say that the national outrage over Ayers sounds pretty phony. If you're going to use the word terrorist to describe people who should be sent to the waterboarding park and to describe political attention-whores like the young Ayers, you have destroyed the meaning and validity of the term 'terrorist'.

Ayers attempted showy property damage and said many foolish things in his young days. No more, no less. The whole point of an Obama candidacy is to move us past the toxic and increasingly irrelevant talk about who was a jerk to whom during the Vietnam war era. I feel that Republicans are taking a big risk here by defining terrorism down to include reckless kids in the increasingly distant past. When people find out that Ayers is just some fool with a big mouth, they're going to be disappointed, because he's being made out to be the spiritual antecedent of Bin Laden when he was a lot closer to a skate punk tagging the El.

My understanding of the Obamas and their political philosophy is that they are exactly the types who eschew lefty 'shunning' of those whose views don't match up with theirs. You take the world as it is and deal with it, not just the parts that are 'like you'. Ayers may have been unjustly granted a political reprieve, but that decision was made long before Obama got here and has nothing to do with his ability to judge character.

Last edited by DoctorMoney; 08-27-2008 at 03:55 PM..
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  #33  
Old 08-27-2008, 04:02 PM
osmium osmium is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Preach it Mickey Kaus, send it to Barack, make him watch it.

Fantastic lighting, btw.
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  #34  
Old 08-27-2008, 04:06 PM
p.e. p.e. is offline
 
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Default I think we know why Mickey isn't married

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/139...3:24&out=53:29

It's tasteless. I'm a little bit sorry.

Last edited by p.e.; 08-27-2008 at 04:14 PM.. Reason: slight change in clip in + out
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  #35  
Old 08-27-2008, 04:31 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

The Ayers connection would not be quite so curious if Obama wasn't so busy running from it. If he feels the radical loser actually had some positive things to add to the conversation, he should bring them out and explain why they matter.

Considering their actual relationship, for Obama to describe him in one of the debates as 'just a guy who lives in my neighborhood' sems to be a pathetic dodge.

He also made the false claim that Ayers was merely a 'professor of English', when in fact he's been doing his best to turn state schools into indoctrination centers. Anyone ignorant of this is advised to read the excellent article from Sol Stern.

an excerpt:

"Ayers’s influence on what is taught in the nation’s public schools is likely to grow in the future. Last month, he was elected vice president for curriculum of the 25,000-member American Educational Research Association (AERA), the nation’s largest organization of education-school professors and researchers. Ayers won the election handily, and there is no doubt that his fellow education professors knew whom they were voting for. In the short biographical statement distributed to prospective voters beforehand, Ayers listed among his scholarly books Fugitive Days, an unapologetic memoir about his ten years in the Weather Underground. The book includes dramatic accounts of how he bombed the Pentagon and other public buildings.

AERA already does a great deal to advance the social-justice teaching agenda in the nation’s schools and has established a Social Justice Division with its own executive director. With Bill Ayers now part of the organization’s national leadership, you can be sure that it will encourage even more funding and support for research on how teachers can promote left-wing ideology in the nation’s classrooms—and correspondingly less support for research on such mundane subjects as the best methods for teaching underprivileged children to read."




And Mickey, I think you're combining Folsom Prison Blues with Cocaine Blues. Both great songs but the victims were different, the 'man in Reno' was FPB and the victim in CB (where the chase ended just short of Mexico) was described as 'my woman'.
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  #36  
Old 08-27-2008, 04:57 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Oh, I don't mean to imply that the Edwards/Foley situations were identical. But I think it's naive to suggest that the Democratic party leadership would have handled it responsibly if they had privately been made aware of it earlier -- when is the last time either party's leadership has behaved forthrightly and responsibly in the face of an potential scandal? They always try to cover it up first, or just ignore it and hope it goes away.

In fact, isn't that one of the reasons why Mickey was pushing the story? A lot of Democratic party types knew about the rumors, but no one was willing to look into them?
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  #37  
Old 08-27-2008, 05:08 PM
Exeus99 Exeus99 is offline
 
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Default Re: What does "Yes" mean in Mickeyspeak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment at 3:08
No way, no watching, no listening, no more Mickey
Truly, producing your dingalink under these earlier-stated conditions is a Wonderment.
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  #38  
Old 08-27-2008, 05:30 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Reunited

Quote:
Originally Posted by tottoritodd View Post
I'm glad to be part of this community. It has been great watching smart debate. I hope I can add some thoughts without making an ass of myself.

That said did Robert Wright say?:

"Republicans are these masterful inverters of reality"?(23:45 ish)

Wow! I'm not the biggest Republican out there, but isn't the crisis in Georgia real? McCain response wasn't perfect, but wasn't it a real response? I believe Obama responded with the typical left response of lets all get along.

I disagree A LOT with republicans, but to me the always seem to have a real response. That's why I can't vote for a Democrat. The world is not kindergarten. Even if you are wrong I would rather have an adult response.

Thanks for the chance to add my opinion
So it's your opinion that trying diplomacy first, and force second is the kindergarten approach, and shooting first is what an adult would do?

I think you have presented a perfect example of the inversion of reality that Bob was referring to.

Last edited by handle; 08-27-2008 at 05:38 PM..
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  #39  
Old 08-27-2008, 05:38 PM
Exeus99 Exeus99 is offline
 
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Default Re: Wright's IQ (call)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMoney
Wouldn't everyone say Thomas?
See, I don't know. Wright implied pretty heavily that he didn't think much of Thomas intellectually in his 'vlog with Althouse. He made a point to highlight the fact that we don't KNOW that Thomas writes his own opinions, and that we don't KNOW that Thomas is qualified to sit on the Court since he hasn't asked many questions--so I'm thinking with Sen. Biden, we do KNOW he hasn't always written some of his speeches, (even parts that were first-person referential), and we KNOW he's said any of the boneheaded things you'd care to choose from the long list of Senator-speak he's spewed over his career--so which way Wright would break, which person he thinks is smarter, isn't clear to me; maybe Wright could tell us.
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:41 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default More praise of Bill Ayers, American War Resister and Hero

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As someone younger than Obama and a lifelong Chicagoan, I'm going to say that the national outrage over Ayers sounds pretty phony. If you're going to use the word terrorist to describe people who should be sent to the waterboarding park and to describe political attention-whores like the young Ayers, you have destroyed the meaning and validity of the term 'terrorist'.
I would take it a step further. The Republicans want to revisit Vietnam?

Bring it on!

Bill Ayers was on the right side of the Vietnam conflict.

He courageously opposed a stupid, pointless and illegal war of agression in which the USA inflicted mass murder and collective punishment on millions of innocent Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians.

John McCain participated in the real terrorism inflicted on the Vietnamese people. McCain flew 23 mass-murder missions.

The Vietnam War was also deeply destructive of an entire generation of Americans. Over 50,000 died. Many thousands more were permanently disabled. Our psychiatric wards, clinics, veterans hospitals and homeless shelters are full of deeply troubled Vietnam veterans to this day.

We were either conscripted to kill-and-die in the Vietnam holocaust or we had family members who were.

Or, like Bill Ayers, we resisted.

We went to prison, we fled to Canada, we burned our Draft cards, we marched in the streets, we shut down war-complicit college campuses, we refused to pay war taxes, we marched on the Pentagon, we lobbied Congress members, we went to the Democratic National Convention and were attacked by out-of-control police, etc. etc., etc.

A few advocated violent resistance in the USA. They made mistakes, committed crimes and were prosecuted. They were wrong to advocate violence.

But put that in the context of the estimated deaths caused by American bombing just in the 3 years of Operation Rolling Thunder. Estimates range from 72,000 to 182,000 CIVILIANS. ( As many as 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians may have died in the entire conflict. )

McCain was part of Rolling Thunder. Read about and tell me who is the terrorist.

Quote:
Between March 1965 and November 1968, aircraft of the U.S. Air Force had flown 153,784 attack sorties against North Vietnam, while the Navy and Marine Corps had added another 152,399. On 31 December 1967, the Department of Defense announced that 864,000 tons of American bombs had been dropped on North Vietnam during Rolling Thunder, compared with 653,000 tons dropped during the entire Korean Conflict and 503,000 tons in the Pacific theater during the Second World War.[107]

The CIA estimated on 1 January 1968 that damage inflicted in the north totaled $370 million in physical destruction, including $164 million worth of damage to capital assets (such as factories, bridges, and power plants). The agency also estimated that approximately 1,000 casualties had been inflicted on the North Vietnamese population per week, or approximately 90,000 for the 44-month period, 72,000 of whom were civilians.[
Bill Ayers Ayers HAS NEVER defended violent resistance against the Vietnam holocaust. All he said was that we should have done more to stop the war in Vietnam. Amen to that.

I will go to my grave with the same regrets. I too should have done more to stop Nixon, Johnson, Bush, Cheney and other warmongers of my lifetime.

I should have done more to prevent John McCain from bombing the Vietnamese people.

I hope Barack and Michelle Obama teach their children the wisdom in Bill Ayer's words: You can always do more for peace. That's what I have taught my children and will teach my grandchildren: Do more. You're not doing enough. Today, you can vote against warmonger John McCain. Tomorrow you abolish nuclear weapons. The next day you can end torture. There's plenty to do.
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