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  #1  
Old 12-29-2010, 02:00 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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  #2  
Old 12-29-2010, 03:48 PM
DisturbingClown DisturbingClown is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Was that a libertarian/Magic/D&D mash-up joke? I think I love you man.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2010, 04:28 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by DisturbingClown View Post
Was that a libertarian/Magic/D&D mash-up joke? I think I love you man.
that was pretty sweet - "don't let the government tap your mana!"

I also have to give julian props for referencing The Glass Bead Game.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2010, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Here's Julian's special Christmas present. Sooo adorable!
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2010, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Good discussion about libertarian ideas, libertarianism, pseudo- libertarianism and current yuxtaposition of reactions against government. Also, Christopher and Julian brought up good points about reality testing libertarian ideas and bringing perspective to the overly simplistic interpretations such as "smaller government fixes everything!"

Enjoyable conversation.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:18 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Julian would like a little less Rothbard and Rand and a little more Hayek. Me too.

Julian showed great restraint in not bringing up his very own meme, epistemic closure.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2010, 11:10 PM
db63 db63 is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Doesn't "epistemic closure" refer to a number of well-known philosophical ideas?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/closure-epistemic/
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2010, 11:23 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by db63 View Post
Doesn't "epistemic closure" refer to a number of well-known philosophical ideas?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/closure-epistemic/
Yeah, but Julian inadvertently created a colloquial sense of the phrase in a blog post earlier this year. He elaborated somewhat later and was pretty explicit about unconsciously "borrowing" (and re-purposing) the term in his original piece. Regardless, I think his sense of it stuck, and is pretty useful as a descriptor.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2010, 11:24 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by db63 View Post
Doesn't "epistemic closure" refer to a number of well-known philosophical ideas?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/closure-epistemic/
aha! so he didn't make it up...just revitalized it.

Quote:
Mr. Sanchez said he probably fished “epistemic closure” out of his subconscious from an undergraduate course in philosophy, where it has a technical meaning in the realm of logic.
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Last edited by badhatharry; 12-29-2010 at 11:26 PM..
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2010, 11:45 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Julian would like a little less Rothbard and Rand and a little more Hayek. Me too.
Me too but I think that Rand's importance in pretty much any circle (except the explicit objectivists) is dramatically overrated.
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  #11  
Old 12-29-2010, 11:50 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Me too but I think that Rand's importance in pretty much any circle (except the explicit objectivists) is dramatically overrated.
However people on the left find her useful whether or not they've read her. She's kind of like those memes Christopher and Julian refered to. Just mention her name and gauge the reaction.

I think she's a pretty interesting character. I haven't read anything of hers in a very long time but I remember, even at a young age, thinking that she was an abysmal novelist. However, a lot of her thinking still rings true.
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  #12  
Old 12-29-2010, 11:59 PM
R. Richards R. Richards is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Thanks for a very interesting discussion. Respecting von Mises, there is a new podcast about his life and ideas, at EconTalk, with Peter Boettke & Russ Roberts: http://bit.ly/fz6n05
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2010, 12:05 AM
R. Richards R. Richards is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Re: this discussion of Internet memes, there is a large literature about this, that addresses the issues raised here: http://bit.ly/fbVWFv
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  #14  
Old 12-30-2010, 12:21 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by R. Richards View Post
Thanks for a very interesting discussion. Respecting von Mises, there is a new podcast about his life and ideas, at EconTalk, with Peter Boettke & Russ Roberts: http://bit.ly/fz6n05
Interesting. Just finished reading Roberts on the Crisis. Good stuff.
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  #15  
Old 12-30-2010, 12:42 AM
Freddie Freddie is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Socialism IS still a threat, Chris Beam! A spectre is haunting America....
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  #16  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:15 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
However people on the left find her useful whether or not they've read her. She's kind of like those memes Christopher and Julian refered to. Just mention her name and gauge the reaction.

I think she's a pretty interesting character. I haven't read anything of hers in a very long time but I remember, even at a young age, thinking that she was an abysmal novelist. However, a lot of her thinking still rings true.
Interesting person yes. Horrible novelist yes. I think that I'm too put off by her utter contempt for most of humanity to really get into her philosophy. Though in her defense, objectivist philosophy realistically wouldn't lead to human rights abuses, unlike all of the works of 20th century radical theorists.
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  #17  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:17 AM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Of the third party movements "libertarians" seem to have the most staying power and credibility. Sure, they remain a fringe movement but one that does have some stances that are at a minimum intellectually intriguing. I am not that well versed in it to differentiate it's various strains but do get their general game plan.

Ayn Rand seems to generate a lot of controversy. Being a reader I did stumble through "Atlas Shrugged." It wasn't great literature by any stretch but as her protege Leonard Peikoff has stated "everything she believed is in that book." Maybe that's not a good reason to read it but I did and apparently more people are doing the same as evidenced by it's sales are more now than when it initally came out. My memory is fuzzy on this but I heard that anywhere from 250,000 to 500,000 copies are sold per annum in recent times. Professor Jennifer Burns has written an objective biography of her "Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right." I didn't read it but saw a one hour presentation she gave on public television and found it quite informative.

John

Last edited by bkjazfan; 12-30-2010 at 10:28 AM..
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  #18  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:46 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Interesting person yes. Horrible novelist yes. I think that I'm too put off by her utter contempt for most of humanity to really get into her philosophy. Though in her defense, objectivist philosophy realistically wouldn't lead to human rights abuses, unlike all of the works of 20th century radical theorists.
Well put. Her writing does fairly ooze with contempt. But it's mostly contempt for any type of collective thinking. One could read her philosophy with the aim of disagreeing with it and see how that goes. Here's an example.

Quote:
Since misfortune and distress are a normal part of the human condition, a philosophy that offers no positive, private solutions to deal with them will just have a harder time making the case against government intervention stick.
Quote:
The fact is that Rand gets harder to take as one grows older and concerns about those around us become more important than our own personal project of self development. The relentless, single-minded dedication to one's passions that Rand seems to favor requires a coldness of the soul, a narrowing of one's humanity—the natural interest in the fortune of others that Smith alludes to—that most people find is not exactly conducive to their happiness.
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  #19  
Old 12-30-2010, 11:03 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
Professor Jennifer Burns has written an objective biography of her "Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right." I didn't read it but saw a one hour presentation she gave on public television and found it quite informative.

John
Yes, Ayn Rand seems to pop up as person of interest every decade or so. Here's Charles Murray on Jennifer Burn's book. I heard an interview on NPR about it.

And Reason Magazine is doing a series on Rand and Capitalism.

She's not dead yet and having the conversation about her ideas is good.
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  #20  
Old 12-30-2010, 12:01 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

I was shocked and saddened to hear Christopher say he's never found Monty Python to be funny.
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  #21  
Old 12-30-2010, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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I was shocked and saddened to hear Christopher say he's never found Monty Python to be funny.
As someone who has yet to see a Monty Python movie (despite seeing more than 2,000 movies), but who has heard several people make obscure Monty Python references before acknowledging the source of their statement, I totally agreed with Christopher. Of course, I'm just as guilty as they are--I tend to litter my speech with Firefly/Serenity references. If the show had several seasons, I think the entirety of my lexicon would be FF lingo.
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  #22  
Old 12-30-2010, 03:13 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Yes, Ayn Rand seems to pop up as person of interest every decade or so. Here's Charles Murray on Jennifer Burn's book. I heard an interview on NPR about it.

And Reason Magazine is doing a series on Rand and Capitalism.

She's not dead yet and having the conversation about her ideas is good.
Mark Skousen in his Christian Science Monitor essay 'Atlas Shrugged' - 50 Years Later has an insightful take on her.

John

Last edited by bkjazfan; 12-30-2010 at 03:15 PM..
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  #23  
Old 12-30-2010, 04:08 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
As someone who has yet to see a Monty Python movie (despite seeing more than 2,000 movies), but who has heard several people make obscure Monty Python references before acknowledging the source of their statement, I totally agreed with Christopher. Of course, I'm just as guilty as they are--I tend to litter my speech with Firefly/Serenity references. If the show had several seasons, I think the entirety of my lexicon would be FF lingo.
I am too much of an anglophile and my introduction to monty python was at a young age in the late 70's when there was nothing really that funny around to watch ( all in the family and barney miller excepted ) and trading quips from MP, Star Trek TOS, and the simpsons was practically a necessity when dealing with other engineering/geek types, so you can't rely on me but in their day they were highsterical ;-) I wonder what Christopher et al think of Fawlty Towers or Black Adder ?? MP was laden down with late 60's british cultural references that where old 30 years ago let alone today but is nothing in british humour that abides these days ??

FF was a GAS ( Christina Hendricks showed up twice IIRC in the one season ) clever, interesting, solid SF and unfortunately destined to die an unholy death at the hands of Fox execs, at least Arrested Development got a few seasons ( a fan Chris ?? )
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  #24  
Old 01-02-2011, 04:14 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

I hate to nit-pick, but one doesn't tap mana; one taps lands in order to generate mana.
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  #25  
Old 01-02-2011, 05:11 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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I hate to nit-pick, but one doesn't tap mana; one taps lands in order to generate mana.
You gamers and your sexy-fun talk. Sheesh.
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  #26  
Old 01-02-2011, 06:49 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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You gamers and your sexy-fun talk. Sheesh.
What, do you want more? Did you know that you tap creatures as well?
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  #27  
Old 01-03-2011, 09:54 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
Of the third party movements "libertarians" seem to have the most staying power and credibility. Sure, they remain a fringe movement but one that does have some stances that are at a minimum intellectually intriguing. I am not that well versed in it to differentiate it's various strains but do get their general game plan.
I think it's interesting too. They obviously appeal to the left on social issues and the right on economic issues. The polar philosophy would be rightwing on social issues and left wing on economic issues, which would be, what, fascism?

I think the difficulty in that question - what would be their anti-thesis - highlights something interesting about the American body politic. We seem to have a real libertarian strain. This, despite the "What's the matter with Kansas" narrative about the right moving leftwing economic voters on cultural issues.

I wonder if most voters aren't culturally liberal deep down in their hearts, as they watch trashy television and "just can't quit" their gay relatives(!). But can't help but feel condescended by Nancy Pelosi and those effete bastards who think their beer and coffee is better. So the Republican party can run a sort of conscious front.

I have no idea where the hell I'm going with this and I'm late for work. hah!.....
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  #28  
Old 01-03-2011, 11:27 AM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
...

I wonder if most voters aren't culturally liberal deep down in their hearts, as they watch trashy television and "just can't quit" their gay relatives(!). But can't help but feel condescended by Nancy Pelosi and those effete bastards who think their beer and coffee is better. So the Republican party can run a sort of conscious front.

...
People seem too self identify 2-2.5 to one conservative to liberal, pretty much since that question has been polled. What probably has you confused is that you have bought into the left's meme that only those that agree with the liberal viewpoint are capable of having a heart.
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  #29  
Old 01-03-2011, 01:27 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Quote:
The polar philosophy would be rightwing on social issues and left wing on economic issues, which would be, what, fascism?


There's nothing all that left-wing about fascist economic ideas, unless you define "left-wing" Goldberg-style as "not free-market capitalist". Fascists were idealists, they didn't think the fate of nations was determined by economics but rather by their national spirit or whatever you might call that sort of Romantic notion they repurposed. They didn't really, as far as I know, have much of an economic program -- they tried a lot of things, and the main connection between them wasn't a coherent economic philosophy but rather just the desire to put everything in the service of the greater glory of the volk/nation/state.

There are a lot of parties in post-communist Europe that are definitely left-wing on economic issues and right-wing on social ones. The Fico government in Slovakia could definitely be characterized that way (and maybe so could the last Polish government, but I'm not sure).

Last edited by kezboard; 01-03-2011 at 01:48 PM..
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  #30  
Old 01-03-2011, 01:54 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Maybe it's juvenile, but I can't hear anyone use the phrase "tracts of land" without falling all over myself laughing.
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  #31  
Old 01-03-2011, 02:15 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
I hate to nit-pick, but one doesn't tap mana; one taps lands in order to generate mana.
i am humbled.
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  #32  
Old 01-03-2011, 03:36 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

I enjoyed this diavlog, which I listened to while grocery shopping and then hauling all the groceries back to my apartment, up four flights of stairs, and then putting them all away (just in case anyone is interested), even though Julian's incredible earnestness, and maybe also baby face, makes it very hard for me to believe that he was actually born in 1979. Not that I think I'm wiser or anything, or that I'm particularly jaded, just that he is really, really, really earnest.

I wanted to point out an argument that Julian was making about the Civil Rights Act that I thought was somewhat lame, though. If I understood it correctly, what he said was that a libertarian could support the "public accommodations" bit for two reasons -- the first one being that the state had a hand in creating the sort of racism that led to segregation in restaurants and similar spaces, and therefore was morally required to work to fix this problem, and the second because the Civil Rights Act was motivated by one specific problem and was not part of a larger sort of totalitarian state structure that was trying to regulate peoples' social lives. To the second argument, well, says who? Probably most Americans would agree today that the Civil Rights Act wasn't the first step down a road to creeping totalitarianism, but plenty of people at the time suggested it was -- or if not totalitarianism exactly, then some nefarious plot by Communists to make young white women marry black men.

And the first argument is a little perverse. Say the revolutionary war had failed and we remained a British colony until getting independence in 1964, would the new state still be morally obligated to limit its citizens' freedom for the greater good by passing the public accommodations part of the Civil Rights Act? Granted, the state would have a responsibility not to do things like limit voting rights or segregate public schools, but since it would have been the British state that perpetrated state discrimination, thus leading to the kind of social conditions that said it was fine for white restaurant and hotel owners to exclude black people, what responsibility would the new American government have? I would argue that it would have that responsibility regardless, but I'm a liberal -- I'm the one who believes that the government has a responsibility to reduce injustice and promote equality. And while we're on the subject, even if the state was responsible for creating a racist society, who says that means the state is responsible for trying to de-racist-ify it? I thought libertarians were against social engineering!
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  #33  
Old 01-03-2011, 05:34 PM
JulianSanchez JulianSanchez is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

Huh. I can be accused of many things, but excessive earnestness? That may be a first. I think what you're picking up on may just be overcaffeination.
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  #34  
Old 01-03-2011, 06:49 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

I'm not hating! I guess it's just that any discussion of internet memes in any sort of seriousness at all is bound to sound a little silly.
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  #35  
Old 01-03-2011, 10:42 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
Maybe it's juvenile, but I can't hear anyone use the phrase "tracts of land" without falling all over myself laughing.
apropos of this comment section the Argument Clinic


...
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
...
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  #36  
Old 01-05-2011, 05:01 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default liberal+libertarian or libertarianism uber er... allies ?

So the Chris Beam article did discuss the Brink Lindsey meme or whateveryawannacallit and while it wasn't discussed specifically it might have been interesting for the diavlog to kick it around some ( even if that meant kicking it down the stairs )

I will say that Julian seems to be a bit liberal about Net Neutrality as in this link that he tweeted. Arguing that Net Neutrality doesn't mean a govt. takeover is the kind of thing that got Brink canned or whateveryawannacallit.
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  #37  
Old 01-05-2011, 05:43 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Auto-Tune Me (Christopher Beam & Julian Sanchez)

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
I think the difficulty in that question - what would be their anti-thesis - highlights something interesting about the American body politic. We seem to have a real libertarian strain.
It seems that this was tangentially discussed. Theoretically americans have a libertarian streak but practically speaking it's not that simple. Libertarianism has the benefit of not being implemented and therefore immune to critique. Getting there from here is the trick and that as the Chris Beam article quotes Brink Lindsey:

"The dominant strain of libertarianism these days is—and I’m not using these words in any kind of pejorative sense—radical and utopian,” says Lindsey. But if Libertopia is the goal, no one knows how to get there. Lindsey compares libertarians who preach purity to the “Underpants Gnomes” in South Park, a popular analogy in wonk circles: “Step one, articulate Utopia. Step three is Utopia. Step two is a big question mark.”

By all means vote libertarian but that leaves your ox vulnerable to what ever goring the other side has in store. That leaves you with the unhelpful moniker of independent which is great until you ask someone else what that means, now you have another issue. Well at least if you define independent as being up for grabs you got some traction.

Along this line however maybe we can have some form of coalition beginning to emerge lidependism or some such as opposed to liberaltarianism. Given the recent gallup poll finding the chart that may STILL be below



shows that dems and indies track each other a bit better when it comes to belief in the origin of humans. It's a small step but agreeing on the basics of physics and other natural laws might be a start ;-)
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