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  #1  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:14 PM
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Default Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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  #2  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:33 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

Conn, this is ridiculous. The Doc Fix situation was exactly the same before the ACA passed and would be exactly the same if it had not. It is absolutely not part of the cuts to Medicare included in the ACA and wasn't counted as a part of its savings. This also means that your assertion that the ACA's cuts come out of payments to physicians is essentially bullshit as well.

Last edited by Don Zeko; 06-21-2011 at 04:36 PM..
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:41 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

Oh, and this is ridiculous too. Medicare already pays much less than private insurance, but plenty of doctors still see Medicare patients because Medicare's pay rates are still high enough to make treatment profitable and Medicare patients are an enormous market that doctors can't afford to leave sitting on the table. If everybody's coverage paid at Medicare's rates then doctors absolutely would not refuse to see you. If they did that, they'd have no patients. Instead, doctors would make less money and everybody else would spend less on health care. That stinks for doctors, but it's what medical cost control means: making the same care cheaper by making it somewhat less profitable to be a provider.
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  #4  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Oh, and this is ridiculous too. Medicare already pays much less than private insurance, but plenty of doctors still see Medicare patients because Medicare's pay rates are still high enough to make treatment profitable and Medicare patients are an enormous market that doctors can't afford to leave sitting on the table. If everybody's coverage paid at Medicare's rates then doctors absolutely would not refuse to see you. If they did that, they'd have no patients. Instead, doctors would make less money and everybody else would spend less on health care. That stinks for doctors, but it's what medical cost control means: making the same care cheaper by making it somewhat less profitable to be a provider.
A growing number of doctors do not participate in Medicare due to the artificially low rates paid:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...medicare_N.htm

If the government forced everyone into a statist, Medicare style model, many doctors would simply go into medical research and stop treating people. They may also consider moving abroad. If the state suddenly issued wage controls on my profession, I would move to a different country.
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:00 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
If the government forced everyone into a statist, Medicare style model, many doctors would simply go into medical research and stop treating people. They may also consider moving abroad. If the state suddenly issued wage controls on my profession, I would move to a different country.
Please, please tell me that you know the difference between the government changing the level at which it subsidizes a product and the government instituting wage controls on the providers of that product.
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  #6  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Please, please tell me that you know the difference between the government changing the level at which it subsidizes a product and the government instituting wage controls on the providers of that product.
I'm talking about the Single Payer model, as well as its stalking horse, the 'Public Option.' If you lower the rate of Medicare payment in our existing model, you will simply further limit the number of doctors who participate in Medicare.
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  #7  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:05 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
I'm talking about the Single Payer model, as well as its stalking horse, the 'Public Option.' If you lower the rate of Medicare payment in our existing model, you will simply further limit the number of doctors who participate in Medicare.
That still doesn't make what you describe wage controls. Similar in effect, perhaps, but we're talking about an industry in which demand is created by a government program. Cut the program and you cut demand, leading to a decrease in wages for providers, but that's absolutely not the same thing as wage controls.
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  #8  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
That still doesn't make what you describe wage controls. Similar in effect, perhaps, but we're talking about an industry in which demand is created by a government program. Cut the program and you cut demand, leading to a decrease in wages for providers, but that's absolutely not the same thing as wage controls.
I don't see where demand is created by Medicare. Regardless of the existence of Medicare, there is demand where people need treatment. Maybe participation in Medicare leads to a net increase in the amount of medical services demanded--is this what you are claiming?
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:12 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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I don't see where demand is created by Medicare. Regardless of the existence of Medicare, there is demand where people need treatment. Maybe participation in Medicare leads to a net increase in the amount of medical services demanded--is this what you are claiming?
Do I really have to tell you that Demand, as used in economics, means desire for a good and the willingness and ability to pay for it, not just desire for a good?
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Do I really have to tell you that Demand, as used in economics, means desire for a good and the willingness and ability to pay for it, not just desire for a good?
One does not generally need Medicare for that. Thus Medicare provides for a negligible increase in the consumption of services, moreso just a distributed payment for them.
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  #11  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

The artificial layer of profit-taking that's inserted into our health care system is ruining the country, the economy and everyone's lives.

Listening to this dual-right-wing diavlog is like listening to two people talking about life on Mars - rich morons in ivory towers who have no clue what life is like for the majority of people.
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  #12  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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The artificial layer of profit-taking that's inserted into our health care system is ruining the country, the economy and everyone's lives.
What do you mean by "artificial layer of profit-taking"
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  #13  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
What do you mean by "artificial layer of profit-taking"
A rigged deck.
An unleveled playing field.
A fixed outcome.
A cornered market.

You know. The opposite of a free market.
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  #14  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:16 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by graz View Post
A rigged deck.
An unleveled playing field.
A fixed outcome.
A cornered market.

You know. The opposite of a free market.
Those are talking points. Care to elaborate on some or all of them?
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  #15  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:50 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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You know. The opposite of a free market.
I like how one answers for the other, y'know, like a Liberal Hive-Mind. Certain things are just true, e.g., trickle down economics doesn't work.

Like, you friggin rich people with your expensive $20,000 big screen plasma TVs. You don't know what it's like for.... What do you mean they're only $600 now?
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  #16  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

>What do you mean by "artificial layer of profit-taking"

When a public company whose duty is to maximize profits for its shareholders takes a cut of every health care transaction, amounting to billions of dollars, and games the system, in collusion with other for-profit corporations, to maximize the amount they rake off the top - which is enough to ruin the country.

The trouble with the one sided diavlog is that you've created a straw dog in this nonsense about doctors and medicare. You're deflecting attention away from the elephant in the room - the organized crime protection racket that Republicans have set up to bleed everyone dry.

The person who needs health care has to pay and the people who provide the actual care need to be paid. Because health care is usually not needed until it's needed in unaffordable amounts, there has to be a way to pay one affordable amount over the long haul and then be guaranteed care. The fair way to do this is through taxes and single payer. If an insurance model has to be used, IT HAS TO BE NON-PROFIT! As long as a corporation's profits are determined by how badly they screw over the Ämerican public this is going to keep happening. Why is that so hard for rich people to understand? You all sound like Marie Freaking Antoinette.

Last edited by timba; 06-21-2011 at 10:34 PM.. Reason: typo
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  #17  
Old 06-21-2011, 11:04 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by timba View Post
>What do you mean by "artificial layer of profit-taking"
so you don't really mean an artificial layer of profit taking. You just mean plain old profit taking and you don't think this concept works for health insurance.

Quote:
The person who needs health care has to pay and the people who provide the actual care need to be paid. Because health care is usually not needed until it's needed in unaffordable amounts, there has to be a way to pay one affordable amount over the long haul and then be guaranteed care.
That's kinda the way health insurance works. I've never been without insurance even when I was young and poor and had to pay for it myself.


Quote:
The fair way to do this is through taxes and single payer. If an insurance model has to be used, IT HAS TO BE NON-PROFIT!
Ya know that's kinda funny. Blue Cross is supposedly non-profit.

Quote:
As long as a corporation's profits are determined by how badly they screw over the Ämerican public this is going to keep happening.
What's going to keep happening?
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  #18  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:08 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

I'll expand further:

Your presumption that lower Medicare wages would not result in a net reduction of the number of doctors who participate in the system fails due to at least two reasons:
1) Medicare involves more paperwork, which is an added burden on doctors. This is added to the cost of seeing a Medicare patient and makes seeing one more costly.
2) (and more importantly) Your analysis fails to take into account market psychology. Say you give music lessons for $40 an hour--a reasonable rate probably around the market rate for decent music lessons. Say you have five students a day. A sixth student comes to you and says that he would like lessons, but he is only willing to pay $28 an hour. You have the time free, and it would mean a net increase in your pay. But you will in all likelihood not take the student. Why? Because that is not the market wage, and you will feel insulted that someone is wanting to pay you substantially less than what you deserve for your service, which the market has set. You will turn down the offer and simply not work that extra hour, until someone comes along and offers you the market wage.
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  #19  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:10 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
I'll expand further:

Your presumption that lower Medicare wages would not result in a net reduction of the number of doctors who participate in the system fails due to at least two reasons:
1) Medicare involves more paperwork, which is an added burden on doctors. This is added to the cost of seeing a Medicare patient and makes seeing one more costly.
2) (and more importantly) Your analysis fails to take into account market psychology. Say you give music lessons for $40 an hour--a reasonable rate probably around the market rate for decent music lessons. Say you have five students a day. A sixth student comes to you and says that he would like lessons, but he is only willing to pay $28 an hour. You have the time free, and it would mean a net increase in your pay. But you will in all likelihood not take the student. Why? Because that is not the market wage, and you will feel insulted that someone is wanting to pay you substantially less than what you deserve for your service, which the market has set. You will turn down the offer and simply not work that extra hour, until someone comes along and offers you the market wage.
As usual, I'm talking about existing health care systems and my libertarian interlocutors are talking about thought experiments and the magic of the free market. If you don't already think that health care is so full of market failures that it makes this dogma nonsense, then I won't convince you. I'm done with this argument.
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  #20  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
As usual, I'm talking about existing health care systems and my libertarian interlocutors are talking about thought experiments and the magic of the free market. If you don't already think that health care is so full of market failures that it makes this dogma nonsense, then I won't convince you. I'm done with this argument.
Rats and I was having fun, too
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  #21  
Old 06-21-2011, 07:01 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
If everybody's coverage paid at Medicare's rates then doctors absolutely would not refuse to see you. If they did that, they'd have no patients. Instead, doctors would make less money and everybody else would spend less on health care. That stinks for doctors, but it's what medical cost control means: making the same care cheaper by making it somewhat less profitable to be a provider.
Okay, I'm going to be charitable and just assume that I don't have all the assumptions that you're working with here. So, please tell me what they are. Based on the information I have at hand, your position is that by capping the pay rates to doctors, we'd essentially just get the same amount of health care, but it would be cheaper for everyone. Is that right?

Even if we did what you're suggesting, which is politically impossible, and even if it worked like you're suggesting, the best case scenario would be that it works for a short period of time. In a few short years, there would be no doctors. The reason for that is quite simple:

PEOPLE WOULD STOP GOING TO MEDICAL SCHOOL.

Yes, in the short run doctors would still be doctors and they'd still show up for work. But do you think that by lowering the price of services, college grads are going to take on SEVEN FUCKING YEARS OF DEBT to be a doctor that doesn't make any money? Why the hell would anyone go to medical school? People go to Wall Street to make a killing and it causes a brain drain in all of our other industries. What is it about self-interest that is so fundamentally difficult to understand?

There's an obvious solution to this, though. We could just subsidize medical school through tax payer money. Just make it cheaper for students to get their doctor's licenses by giving them a free ride. Right? But then you'd get many more doctors, but they'd be less qualified. We get lower nominal wages, lower pay rates and that makes everyone "feel" like they're getting cheaper health care. But, the REAL (not nominal cost) would be the same, only we'd get a REAL decline in health care quality.

This all leads me to ask: why are you flirting with half measures? While you're at it, why don't you let the government take over our computer industry too? Is Moore's Law not working fast enough? Yes, the government could mandate One Laptop Per Child and we can subsidize the program with taxpayer. Oh wait, what? What do you mean the free market makes laptops cheaper than OLPC?

Markets aren't perfect. Stop making them worse.
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  #22  
Old 06-21-2011, 09:01 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
This all leads me to ask: why are you flirting with half measures? While you're at it, why don't you let the government take over our computer industry too? Is Moore's Law not working fast enough? Yes, the government could mandate One Laptop Per Child and we can subsidize the program with taxpayer. Oh wait, what? What do you mean the free market makes laptops cheaper than OLPC?

Markets aren't perfect. Stop making them worse.
Here's the thing. Some people want to keep the medical system we have (had) and some people don't. I am in the first camp but I'd like to see some needed changes. The thing about the other camp is that in order for the US to get to where Europe is there are going to have to be a whole lot more changes than ACA.

You mentioned medical school. As you probably know, France and the UK subsidizes medical school for doctors. So in addition to the added cost of ACA (which does exist) the American taxpayer will also be paying for medical schools. Will we still be able to pay for top notch schools or will they go down in quality? I am also pretty confident that our drug companies will be affected. If the prices of drugs are controlled as they are in Europe, will research be as vigorous and will Europe continue to enjoy the benefits we are currently subsidizing? And of course our insurance providers will eventually go out of business, but they're evil so who cares.

This thing is huge and may be impossible to stop. However, I don't think people realize how much in this country is going to change. As you said in another thread, you don't know what you've got until it's gone.

or as Biden said, "this is a big fucking deal!"
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  #23  
Old 06-21-2011, 09:44 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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And of course our insurance providers will eventually go out of business, but they're evil so who cares.
You gotta love these premises.

There is one liberal argument that I find compelling, though. The fundamental conflict of interest between insurance providers and beneficiaries is problematic. The former has a profit motive to not pay out on a valid claim and we can easily see where lines are blurred by ambiguous laws the insurance companies might do their best to not pay out on the most expensive ones.

I have to say that I'd much prefer overhaul the whole damn thing. As a bloggingheads guest mentioned before, there's a difference between health care and health insurance, but we've completely screwed up the distinction between the two. I think a more reasonable socialist approach would be to provide basic health care for kids and screw everyone else. Of course, there's that anchor baby problem, but as long as we're talking about crap that's not going to happen, I might as well pretend that we can easily amend the Constitution.
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Old 06-21-2011, 10:38 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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You gotta love these premises.

There is one liberal argument that I find compelling, though. The fundamental conflict of interest between insurance providers and beneficiaries is problematic. The former has a profit motive to not pay out on a valid claim and we can easily see where lines are blurred by ambiguous laws the insurance companies might do their best to not pay out on the most expensive ones.
Usually conflict of interest means that one is more amenable to an entity than you would normally be because you want them to succeed for your own nefarious reasons. This, I imagine, isn't what you mean when you say there is a conflict of interest between insurance providers and beneficiaries. Instead you are saying that insurance companies don't have the proper incentives to pay out.

Somewhere back in the anals of history people thought insurance companies could be trusted to pay what they promised. I have carried individual insurance for a very long while and have never had a problem, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I think HSA's would go a long way to incentivizing everyone from patients to providers to insurers... that and letting insurance carriers compete across state lines and removing government mandated coverage.

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda... that's a tired old song. We're doomed.
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:29 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Usually conflict of interest means that one is more amenable to an entity than you would normally be because you want them to succeed for your own nefarious reasons. This, I imagine, isn't what you mean when you say there is a conflict of interest between insurance providers and beneficiaries. Instead you are saying that insurance companies don't have the proper incentives to pay out.
Oh, I think I see what you mean.

This relates back to the meshing of two systems that were traditionally distinct: care vs. insurance. If health care services were limited to routine checkups, prescriptions, X-rays, etc., then cost projections for these types of things would be calculable from a quarter to quarter basis. Removing uncertainty and allowing free competition should allow for basic services to get better and cheaper over time, just like in the electronics / computer industry.

However, because our system combines care and insurance markets, routine costs and insurance payouts end up being one and the same: the former being more readily calculable, the latter being more volatile. I'd imagine any bad insurance year means less money goes to provide good routine services, then. In that sense, I think there's a conflict of interest. It's more like a triangle in this example, rather than two parties where you quoted me.

It's the same problem I have with Too Big to Fail banks and why I want Glass-Steagall to return. Because, theoretically you can mix investment banking and consumer level banking. In practice, money gets shifted between these concerns. One side may expose the other side to risks they never signed up for.

I don't mean to suggest that the companies and their officers wake up each morning saying, "How many people do I have the privilege of fucking over today?" Rather, these conglomerates operate too many different businesses under the same roof to be acting in the best interests of all.

Now, that makes it sound like I'm against conglomerates and, theoretically, I suppose I am. But I heard the guys at engadget talking about Samsung, a huge Korean conglomerate with many hands in many pots. According to them, one division (say phones) will not automatically accept parts from another Samsung division (say memory chips) just because they are part of the same umbrella. That is, the Samsung phone division forces the Samsung chip division to compete with all other chip companies in the world on price. Isn't that some cold ass shit? And it fucking works.
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  #26  
Old 06-22-2011, 09:49 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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It's the same problem I have with Too Big to Fail banks and why I want Glass-Steagall to return. Because, theoretically you can mix investment banking and consumer level banking. In practice, money gets shifted between these concerns. One side may expose the other side to risks they never signed up for.
Interesting. Tyler Cowen thinks that the elimination of some of Glass-Steagal is what ultimately contributed to the righting of the ship because Bank of America was able to buy Merill Lynch, et al.

Quote:
I don't mean to suggest that the companies and their officers wake up each morning saying, "How many people do I have the privilege of fucking over today?" Rather, these conglomerates operate too many different businesses under the same roof to be acting in the best interests of all.

... That is, the Samsung phone division forces the Samsung chip division to compete with all other chip companies in the world on price. Isn't that some cold ass shit? And it fucking works
Aha! It just ain't right, but it fucking works. What a conundrum. The alternative is for the government to go fiddling around, trying to make things better. But there are lots of problems with that, too. The first being that there are way too many lobbyists in Washington to imagine that any law that Congress passes won't pick winners and losers. The second being that absolutely no one is capable of figuring out an absolutely equitable way to regulate things. Something will always squeeze out the side and the solution to that is yet another band-aid.
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  #27  
Old 06-22-2011, 02:24 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Interesting. Tyler Cowen thinks that the elimination of some of Glass-Steagal is what ultimately contributed to the righting of the ship because Bank of America was able to buy Merill Lynch, et al.
I like Tyler Cowen a lot. I also have no problem being wrong about Glass-Steagall. In his post, he explains that a combination of commercial and investment banking created more stable institutions. That makes sense. But isn't that also the very definition of "Too Big to Fail"?

Diversification within one institution makes the institution more fault tolerant. However, the system becomes less fault tolerant because there are fewer institutions overall. Now, there's no doubt in my mind that he knows this and that he has a good explanation. Maybe it's in the studies he's linked to, but I wish he had just explained it in the blog post.
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  #28  
Old 06-22-2011, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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I like Tyler Cowen a lot.
That should go without saying--anyone with an informed opinion ought to appreciate Cowen. I disagree with his Great Stagnation argument, but the man's a genius.
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  #29  
Old 06-22-2011, 03:40 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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That should go without saying--anyone with an informed opinion ought to appreciate Cowen. I disagree with his Great Stagnation argument, but the man's a genius.
Heh. So do I. I think it's more like the Great Disruption, but whatever.
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:45 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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PEOPLE WOULD STOP GOING TO MEDICAL SCHOOL.
Kang, this would be more persuasive if, say, Europe's much less well-paid doctors were in short supply, or if Med schools weren't fabulously difficult to get in to. As with Operative, I don't feel like this is a discussion worth having because you never engage with the health care system as it exists in this country, much less with the far more effective health care systems elsewhere.

Instead, you're serving up supply and demand, let the market decide Libertarian pabulum in a context where the government is already about as deeply embedded in the system as it is in the aerospace or energy sectors, there's broad agreement on the existence of huge market failures, and most people's moral intuitions declare the outcomes of a free market abhorrent. Now that my initial frustration with Conn's dishonest performance has abated, I'm not going to participate further in this debate if it continues to be an argument between someone talking about health care and someone using health care as a parable with which to demonstrate the virtues of Libertarian philosophy.
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Old 06-22-2011, 12:02 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Kang, this would be more persuasive if, say, Europe's much less well-paid doctors were in short supply, or if Med schools weren't fabulously difficult to get in to.
I'm not trying to be unreasonable. I prefaced everything with a caveat. Now, you make some solid points, if true. But even if true, it doesn't make your position conclusive. If being a doctor is the best job you can have in Europe, then you can discount the price. Money, power and prestige are all somewhat fungible.

To convince me, at a minimum, you'd have to show the following:

1. European doctors have plenty of other lucrative alternatives, but still choose to be doctors.
2. social stature of European doctors is on par or lower in comparison to American doctors.
3. actual health care is superior for most people, not just patient satisfaction.
4. top 1% rich people seek out specialists in Europe over the specialists in the United States.
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:04 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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......As with Operative, I don't feel like this is a discussion worth having because you never engage with the health care system as it exists in this country, much less with the far more effective health care systems elsewhere.
That is the fundamental difference between your posts and those of the libertarians here. They know next to nothing about the health care system as it actually exists in the US, and nothing at all about the health care systems that exist in Europe---which are all different in any case and cannot be summarily described or dismissed as "socialist/socialized," to use this meaningless jargon that Libertarians so love. They are also superior in terms of outcomes and costs, besides being more just. But arguing that the US is not Number 1 in this area will always incur the wrath of some Americans.


Quote:
Instead, you're serving up supply and demand, let the market decide Libertarian pabulum in a context where the government is already about as deeply embedded in the system as it is in the aerospace or energy sectors, there's broad agreement on the existence of huge market failures, and most people's moral intuitions declare the outcomes of a free market abhorrent. Now that my initial frustration with Conn's dishonest performance has abated, I'm not going to participate further in this debate if it continues to be an argument between someone talking about health care and someone using health care as a parable with which to demonstrate the virtues of Libertarian philosophy.
And besides, who wants to hear for the umteenth time the tenets of their simplistic creed? That seems to be their main justification for posting here. What amazes me is that the BHTV allots so many diavlogs to them. Are they really so representative of the general population?
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:53 AM
Hume's Bastard Hume's Bastard is offline
 
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...the libertarians here...What amazes me is that the BHTV allots so many diavlogs to them. Are they really so representative of the general population?
No. It probably has more to do with that peculiar American institution, the think tank - where Carroll started when I first listened to one of his diavlogs - and bh.tv's need for funding.
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:58 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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No. It probably has more to do with that peculiar American institution, the think tank - where Carroll started when I first listened to one of his diavlogs - and bh.tv's need for funding.
That's right. There's a lot of corporate cash being pumped into the wingnut/libertarian think tanks to provide the intellectual rationale for policies that have one purpose: transfer wealth to the top one-tenth of one percent. And pave the way to roll back American life to something like 1903.

I suspect there's another reason why Bob hosts so many libertarians: He wants his website to feature dialogue between the left and the right, but I think he has a natural revulsion to social conservatives. You don't see very many of those on BhTV. So his only option is to fill the rightwing slot with libertarians. That's my guess, no idea if it's true, but any theory of why he has so many libertarians also has to explain why he has so few of the other kinds of right-wingers.
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:45 AM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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That's right. There's a lot of corporate cash being pumped into the wingnut/libertarian think tanks to provide the intellectual rationale for policies that have one purpose: transfer wealth to the top one-tenth of one percent. And pave the way to roll back American life to something like 1903.

I suspect there's another reason why Bob hosts so many libertarians: He wants his website to feature dialogue between the left and the right, but I think he has a natural revulsion to social conservatives. You don't see very many of those on BhTV. So his only option is to fill the rightwing slot with libertarians. That's my guess, no idea if it's true, but any theory of why he has so many libertarians also has to explain why he has so few of the other kinds of right-wingers.
see, Jeff complains about the quality of posts from the right on this board, in the commenters court thread, and then you read something like this...I'd say this falls under the same category of "ideological talking points without any basis in fact". And I'd also say this represents something the left does much better than the right on this board: melodramatic, over the top, ludicrous caricatures of your opponents.

Zeke, you said you didn't mind naming names. Am I (or anyone else, really) supposed to take something like this seriously? I wouldn't ask if I thought this was an isolated post, but it's pretty common.
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:51 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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see, Jeff complains about the quality of posts from the right on this board, in the commenters court thread, and then you read something like this...I'd say this falls under the same category of "ideological talking points without any basis in fact". And I'd also say this represents something the left does much better than the right on this board: melodramatic, over the top, ludicrous caricatures of your opponents.
Unfortunately, Aem appears to think of TS as the 'principled left' (my words, not his), himself as a moderate, and everyone to the left of him, at least everyone who lacks the patience and temperament of Mother Theresa (rf) to be 'crazy wingnuts' who are, of course, ruining the site with their talk of free markets and free people.
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:59 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Unfortunately, Aem appears to think of TS as the 'principled left' (my words, not his), himself as a moderate, and everyone to the left of him, at least everyone who lacks the patience and temperament of Mother Theresa (rf) to be 'crazy wingnuts' who are, of course, ruining the site with their talk of free markets and free people.
Why do you continue to think that the difference between yourself and, say, Jimm47, who Jeff and I like and respect, is how far you are to the right?
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Old 06-22-2011, 12:16 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Why do you continue to think that the difference between yourself and, say, Jimm47, who Jeff and I like and respect, is how far you are to the right?
I have no familiarity with Jimm47 so I can not say. My guess would be obsequiousness.
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Old 06-22-2011, 12:31 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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I have no familiarity with Jimm47 so I can not say. My guess would be obsequiousness.
Nope ... Try obnoxiousness ... It fits.
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  #40  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:03 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)

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Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
see, Jeff complains about the quality of posts from the right on this board, in the commenters court thread, and then you read something like this...I'd say this falls under the same category of "ideological talking points without any basis in fact". And I'd also say this represents something the left does much better than the right on this board: melodramatic, over the top, ludicrous caricatures of your opponents.
Twin clearly labeled the second graf as personal speculation, not as an assertion of truth.

In regard to right-wing think tanks and their funding sources, which part of that isn't true? Heritage, AEI, CEI, Heartland Institute - most of the right-wing-think core - are disreputable, liars and cheats who have been caught in those lies on more than one occasion. (I've linked to plenty of evidence for this assertion many times on this site alone.) And that doesn't even bother to deal directly with the Koch bros and their arguably noxious effect on the public debate.
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