Go Back   Bloggingheads Community > Diavlog comments
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Notices

Diavlog comments Post comments about particular diavlogs here.
(Users cannot create new threads.)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
BhTV staff
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,936
Default When Bobs Collide (Robert Wright & Robert Kagan)

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-16-2009, 11:08 PM
Tim O Tim O is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Wow, Kagan is a complete dick.

Lawrence Wilkerson and Colin Powell both said that Cheney, Feith and company were stovepiping "intelligence". Combine that with the nationalist frenzy and Congress was easily bulldozed into voting for the war.

No one can argue that Congress as a whole is either courageous or super intelligent, save a few.

Condi warning of mushroom clouds was precisely the kind of disinformation that was being spewed out of the White House.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-17-2009, 12:08 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newbridge, NJ
Posts: 2,673
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim O View Post
Wow, Kagan is a complete dick.
That's not very nice but it's absolutely true.

I can't believe anybody ever listened to this guy.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-16-2009, 11:10 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Shorter first seven minutes of Kagan:

Quote:
Bush didn't do that. Every president does that. Bush didn't do that! I can name fifteen presidents who did that! That wasn't the reason!!! Every president uses that reason!!!1!

Also: Clinton.
Hope it gets better.

[Added] Heh. I think the look captured on Bob's face when I paused to type the above pretty much says it all. This is a "drink!" moment, I believe:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bob-wright.jpg (10.0 KB, 13 views)
__________________
Brendan

Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-17-2009 at 01:15 AM.. Reason: change one four letter word to another
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-18-2009, 01:58 AM
scted scted is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
[Added] Heh. I think the look captured on Bob's face when I paused to type the above pretty much says it all. This is a "drink!" moment, I believe:
I was shocked to see the link to the comment dating back to October 2006. This is a clear violation of my own intellectual property.

Last edited by scted; 04-18-2009 at 02:01 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-18-2009, 02:11 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by scted View Post
I was shocked to see the link to the comment dating back to October 2006. This is a clear violation of my own intellectual property.
Do you mean you were shocked not to see the link?

If so, sorry. I blame Historian Nate.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-18-2009, 11:54 AM
scted scted is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Do you mean you were shocked not to see the link?

If so, sorry. I blame Historian Nate.
Unless I'm missing something you, both you and Nate should be ashamed of yourselves. Nate is the only one who could get sued for IP theft though.

It looks to me, based on your citing, that Nate thinks he invented the game in October 2006. We have documentary evidence that it was invented in September 2006. If Nate was aware of that evidence, he's exposed to treble damages. Either way, the only way he can save his bacon is if somewhere, there is a citing of the September 2006 invention. I did not see that in the link you provided.

You can only be accused of sloppy commenting by citing the stale, incomplete or larcenous October 2006 comment from Nate.

Is this clear now?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-18-2009, 02:11 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by scted View Post
Unless I'm missing something you, both you and Nate should be ashamed of yourselves. Nate is the only one who could get sued for IP theft though.

It looks to me, based on your citing, that Nate thinks he invented the game in October 2006. We have documentary evidence that it was invented in September 2006. If Nate was aware of that evidence, he's exposed to treble damages. Either way, the only way he can save his bacon is if somewhere, there is a citing of the September 2006 invention. I did not see that in the link you provided.

You can only be accused of sloppy commenting by citing the stale, incomplete or larcenous October 2006 comment from Nate.

Is this clear now?
I am more than adequately chastised.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-18-2009, 07:09 PM
scted scted is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
I am more than adequately chastised.
Your submission is duly noted and rivaled only by Cramer's appearance on 'The Daily Show.' Apology accepted.

Nate appears to be in hiding but he cannot avoid ensnarement in my legal net.

I would share my original version of the drinking game but, alas, the file has too many bytes.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-18-2009, 07:11 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by scted View Post
Your submission is duly noted and rivaled only by Cramer's appearance on 'The Daily Show.' Apology accepted.

Nate appears to be in hiding but he cannot avoid ensnarement in my legal net.

I would share my original version of the drinking game but, alas, the file has too many bytes.
Watch it, or the estate of M. Fermat will be all over you like a cheap suit.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-19-2009, 03:14 AM
scted scted is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Watch it, or the estate of M. Fermat will be all over you like a cheap suit.
As much as I hate to admit it, that sailed right over my head. I will renounce all my claims against Nate if you explain the Fermat angle to me.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-19-2009, 03:53 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by scted View Post
As much as I hate to admit it, that sailed right over my head. I will renounce all my claims against Nate if you explain the Fermat angle to me.
I thought when you said ...

Quote:
I would share my original version of the drinking game but, alas, the file has too many bytes.
... you were alluding to the story about Fermat's Last Theorem, in which he claimed that he had proved the following.

Quote:
In the equation a^n + b^n = c^n, there is no possibility that a, b, and c can all be non-zero integers if the exponent n is greater than 2.
He scribbled this claim in a book of some sort and added something like, "I have discovered a marvelous proof for this. Unfortunately, the margin is too small to contain it."

More here.

It took a few more centuries before this conjecture was proved, and as I recall, the proof is over 200 pages long. I have always believed this was Fermat's idea of a joke. Referring to "margin too small to contain it" is, without a doubt, a staple of nerd humor, and has been since about six months after Fermat croaked.

Not that I'm calling you a nerd.

Not that there's anything wrong with being a nerd.

Oh, and M. (as opposed to P. for Pierre) was for Monsieur, since we were getting all lawyer-talky.
__________________
Brendan

Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-19-2009 at 03:59 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-19-2009, 10:19 PM
scted scted is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
I thought when you said ...

... you were alluding to the story about Fermat's Last Theorem, in which ...

He scribbled this claim in a book of some sort and added something like, "I have discovered a marvelous proof for this. Unfortunately, the margin is too small to contain it."
I don't think that I could prove in court that I'm not a nerd so I basically failed an IQ test. I'm of course aware of the theorem and all of its lore. I've even read Simon Singh's book about the subject.

In my nerdy circles, I have never heard someone make a joke about 'not enough room in the margin' so making the connection would have required some original work on my part.

I was expecting to be called out for plagiarizing the part in 'Amadeus' where the Emperor tells Salieri that a piece by Mozart has 'too many notes' which sounds like 'too many bytes' but is not as apt an analogy as the Fermat one. Now that I think about it, the reason Nate got all the glory for my invention was that he was able to communicate the idea in a few bytes whereas I resorted to a large file emailed to Bhtv directly. The analogy indeed is perfect: Mozart is to scted as the dull-witted Emperor is to ____

Last edited by scted; 04-19-2009 at 11:43 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-20-2009, 12:19 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by scted View Post
I don't think that I could prove in court that I'm not a nerd so I basically failed an IQ test. I'm of course aware of the theorem and all of its lore. I've even read Simon Singh's book about the subject.

In my nerdy circles, I have never heard someone make a joke about 'not enough room in the margin' so making the connection would have required some original work on my part.
Different circles of nerds, perhaps. I would bet, though, that now that you've heard the suggestion that it's a common joke, you'll pick up on it sometime in the near future.

Quote:
I was expecting to be called out for plagiarizing the part in 'Amadeus' ...
Hah. Wasn't ever going to be me doing the calling out. I am embarrassingly culturally illiterate. So ...

Quote:
... where the Emperor tells Salieri that a piece by Mozart has 'too many notes' which sounds like 'too many bytes' but is not as apt an analogy as the Fermat one. Now that I think about it, the reason Nate got all the glory for my invention was that he was able to communicate the idea in a few bytes whereas I resorted to a large file emailed to Bhtv directly. The analogy indeed is perfect: Mozart is to scted as the dull-witted Emperor is to ____
.. I draw a blank on the blank.

[Added] Wait, are you calling Overlord Bob dull-witted?
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-20-2009, 11:01 AM
scted scted is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
.. I draw a blank on the blank.

[Added] Wait, are you calling Overlord Bob dull-witted?
Er ... not exactly.

I just may have been referring to the Emperor of Bhtv commenters who chose to promote the adequate works of Nate (Salieri) to his minions over the nuanced masterpiece of Scted which is burdened by 'too many bytes'.

Or, maybe it is Bob.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-20-2009, 12:25 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by scted View Post
Er ... not exactly.

I just may have been referring to the Emperor of Bhtv commenters who chose to promote the adequate works of Nate (Salieri) to his minions over the nuanced masterpiece of Scted which is burdened by 'too many bytes'.

Or, maybe it is Bob.
OIC.

In my own defense, I did not seek to promote Salieri's works over Mozart's. Rather, I was in the sad state of being unaware of the existence of Mozart's works. Salieri was to my limited knowledge the only game in town.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-21-2009, 01:34 AM
scted scted is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
OIC.

In my own defense, I did not seek to promote Salieri's works over Mozart's. Rather, I was in the sad state of being unaware of the existence of Mozart's works. Salieri was to my limited knowledge the only game in town.
Duly acknowledged. Nevertheless, the opportunity to bait you was too tempting to resist.

BTW, if you want to throw your considerable Bhtv weight around, tell Bob to make good on his promise of producing a Saudi blogginghead.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-21-2009, 02:06 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by scted View Post
Duly acknowledged. Nevertheless, the opportunity to bait you was too tempting to resist.

BTW, if you want to throw your considerable Bhtv weight around, tell Bob to make good on his promise of producing a Saudi blogginghead.
I've asked (I think, back when he did the diavlog from SA). Good of you to add your voice, because no matter what you might think, I have no more weight to throw around here than any other commenter.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-01-2010, 12:54 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by scted View Post
In my nerdy circles, I have never heard someone make a joke about 'not enough room in the margin' ...
Guess who just joined the Twitterevolution? And look at his bio!
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-01-2010, 07:26 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Guess who just joined the Twitterevolution? And look at his bio!
And look what else I just happened across. (Below the vid.)
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-30-2009, 12:22 PM
Nate Nate is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 195
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Do you mean you were shocked not to see the link?

If so, sorry. I blame Historian Nate.
I am so ashamed.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-16-2009, 11:14 PM
Tim O Tim O is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Ridiculing Obama's idealism in his first hundred days is pretty much a cheap shot. From day one the GOP has been hell bent on destroying any agenda, idealistic or realistic as they did with Hillary Care.

That's the game plan. Ridicule, discredit, defeat, ridicule.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-17-2009, 12:29 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim O View Post
Ridiculing Obama's idealism in his first hundred days is pretty much a cheap shot. From day one the GOP has been hell bent on destroying any agenda, idealistic or realistic as they did with Hillary Care.

That's the game plan. Ridicule, discredit, defeat, ridicule.
Could not agree more.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-16-2009, 11:26 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

This was truly surreal. I'm surprised Bob Wright's head stopped at a quarter-turn. Mine went all the way around, twice.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-17-2009, 12:03 AM
pampl pampl is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 750
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Yeah, I didn't like the beginning much either. I think it got better when they moved past Iraq, although the pirates are getting to be really boring topic considering how irrelevant I think they are on any big-picture perspective. On the tempest-in-a-teapot scale they rank somewhere between Israel/Palestine and Michelle Obama's upper arms.

A little bit of a funny moment when Kagan asks if Wright agrees with the position he said one second ago. Watch as the wild Wright cautiously approaches its meal, using its superior sense of taste to test the air for traces of any predators lying in ambush. (Not that I think he was wrong to be suspicious, I just enjoyed the moment)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-17-2009, 12:29 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampl View Post
Yeah, I didn't like the beginning much either. I think it got better when they moved past Iraq, ...
Agreed.

Quote:
... although the pirates are getting to be really boring topic considering how irrelevant I think they are on any big-picture perspective. On the tempest-in-a-teapot scale they rank somewhere between Israel/Palestine and Michelle Obama's upper arms.
Agree with your sense of the size of the problem, but nonetheless, I liked Bob's idea a lot. When some of us were talking in the other thread about the pirate problem, I did like the idea of nations working together on it, even if it turned out to be mostly symbolism (in part, because I don't think the actual problem is that big). So, I like Bob's idea for that reason, and I like it even better at the thought of the UN being able to do something.

One problem he didn't address that Farley and Drezner agreed was a problem: Never mind the port authorities, how do you get the merchant ships to agree to let guns on board? I wonder if they'd accept UN personnel. Maybe if some large fraction of them did, that would be good enough to make most pirates think it wouldn't be worth the gamble.

Anyway, I wasn't bored with that part of the diavlog, even if it is kind of a minor problem.

Quote:
A little bit of a funny moment when Kagan asks if Wright agrees with the position he said one second ago. Watch as the wild Wright cautiously approaches its meal, using its superior sense of taste to test the air for traces of any predators lying in ambush. (Not that I think he was wrong to be suspicious, I just enjoyed the moment)
Yeah, there were a few moments like that. Hard to blame Bob Wright for that attitude. You know what they say: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me ... fool ... once ... You can't get fooled again!
__________________
Brendan

Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-17-2009 at 05:01 AM.. Reason: minor demurkification
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-17-2009, 01:21 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampl View Post
On the tempest-in-a-teapot scale they rank somewhere between Israel/Palestine and Michelle Obama's upper arms.
I should have said this before, but to my mind, you've specified two endpoints of a scale that stretches pretty damned far. Do you not consider I/P of major significance?

I sure do. Try to imagine how much things would change if you could just wave a magic wand and have Israel and a Palestine state, getting along the way, say, the US and Canada do. Or anything even anywhere remotely near that.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-17-2009, 03:58 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 750
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
I should have said this before, but to my mind, you've specified two endpoints of a scale that stretches pretty damned far. Do you not consider I/P of major significance?

I sure do. Try to imagine how much things would change if you could just wave a magic wand and have Israel and a Palestine state, getting along the way, say, the US and Canada do. Or anything even anywhere remotely near that.
Not relative to the noise made about it, no. I could see it being kept in proportion if it received as much press and attention as Tibet or Chechnya, for example. This is actually good timing for me to be making this gripe because next week there'll be a UN summit on racism which I'm pretty sure will be a perfect example of what I mean.

A good relationship would make the Palestinians better off and the Israelis marginally better off as well, but not much more IMO. Palestine's neighbors would still use the same anti-colonialism complaints and the US would still be assassinating violent radicals in Pakistan who in turn would still be training to attack the West. A resolution to Kashmir would do much more for global peace and stability as well as improving the lot of the locals, but it just isn't as sexy.

If you (meaning you the reader not just bjkeefe) have a burning desire to call me stupid we should probably make a seperate thread in the L,U,E forum. I'd feel silly complaining about how much attention I/P gets while I derail a thread into an argument about it
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-17-2009, 04:35 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampl View Post
Not relative to the noise made about it, no. I could see it being kept in proportion if it received as much press and attention as Tibet or Chechnya, for example. This is actually good timing for me to be making this gripe because next week there'll be a UN summit on racism which I'm pretty sure will be a perfect example of what I mean.

A good relationship would make the Palestinians better off and the Israelis marginally better off as well, but not much more IMO. Palestine's neighbors would still use the same anti-colonialism complaints and the US would still be assassinating violent radicals in Pakistan who in turn would still be training to attack the West. A resolution to Kashmir would do much more for global peace and stability as well as improving the lot of the locals, but it just isn't as sexy.

If you (meaning you the reader not just bjkeefe) have a burning desire to call me stupid we should probably make a seperate thread in the L,U,E forum. I'd feel silly complaining about how much attention I/P gets while I derail a thread into an argument about it
I have no desire to call you stupid, although I would say that equating the I/P situation with MSM micromindedness over the First Lady's well-toned biceps strikes me as potentially offensive to a lot of readers.

I take your point about a possible disproportion in the news coverage of the I/P situation compared to other troubled spots on the globe, but I think, first, that it's just a fact of life that many Americans have for whatever reasons more connection and concern with this one spot than they do with most others.

I also think that while the suffering in other regions may be as great or greater, the I/P situation is one that has more ripple effects for the rest of the world. It is a major stumbling block (or, cynically, a convenient excuse) in the efforts to improve relations between the West and the Arab/Persian/Muslim worlds.

Your example of Kashmir is a good one, though, and to the limited degree that I know anything about that region, I think you might be right, particularly as Pakistan comes more to the front of US attentions.
__________________
Brendan

Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-17-2009 at 04:39 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-17-2009, 07:26 PM
cragger cragger is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 632
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampl View Post
Not relative to the noise made about it, no. I could see it being kept in proportion if it received as much press and attention as Tibet or Chechnya, for example.
US media attention follows US involvement. Even subtracting the substantial portions of the media that consist of folks spouting opinions and/or practicing advocacy for interests, and that portion whose skill set limits them to pointing a camera at the nearest politician and presenting the result as the news, it is only natural that the attention of the remaining sliver is more focused on the Middle East
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-17-2009, 02:11 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,644
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampl View Post
Y On the tempest-in-a-teapot scale they rank somewhere between Israel/Palestine...
sorry if i am misunderstanding, but if you are calling the israel-palestine situation a tempest in a tea pot then you are saying things that are really, really stupid.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-16-2009, 11:33 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

I am now about fifteen minutes in, and I have come to the conclusion that we should rename the Gish Gallop to be the Kagan Clop-Clop.

[Added] And that feeling continued for much of the rest of the way, though at a slightly less frantic pace. I think Kagan does not want to exchange ideas on very many subjects, but just wants to hear enough so he can steamroll whomever he's talking to. And when he's on the defensive, it gets really bad.

What would be so hard about admitting that invading Iraq was a mistake? I'd even let him get away with saying, "We made an honest mistake." It would boost his credibility, in my eyes, anyway.
__________________
Brendan

Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-17-2009 at 12:35 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-17-2009, 01:29 AM
Lyle
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

He doesn't believe invading Iraq was a mistake, just like Christopher Hitchens. They acknowledge the positive consequences of having invaded and occupied Iraq. So I doubt he'll ever say the war was mistake.

Last edited by Lyle; 04-17-2009 at 02:20 AM.. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-17-2009, 01:39 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
He doesn't believe invading Iraq was mistake, just like Christopher Hitchens. They acknowledge the positive consequences of having invaded and occupied Iraq. So I doubt he'll ever say the war was mistake.
You're probably right, but unlike Hitchens, who last I heard was still giving the same argument as I've always heard him give, Kagan seems to get tied up in knots pretty quickly while trying to spin things. There's a lot of rewriting and denying, not to mention bluster, in the beginning of this diavlog. Agree with Hitchens's argument or not, at least he doesn't get defensive about it.

In fairness, Hitchens has the luxury of being an idealist (if a manichean outlook can be said to be idealist), while Kagan does have to present himself as a Serious Person.

Anyway, that different affect of Kagan's is I guess what made me think, "Why doesn't he just apologize and be done with it?"
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-17-2009, 01:49 AM
Lyle
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Yeah, that and Kagan is just a different kind of a guy from Hitchens.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-17-2009, 02:12 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newbridge, NJ
Posts: 2,673
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
In fairness, Hitchens has the luxury of being an idealist (if a manichean outlook can be said to be idealist)
That's it! That's what Hitchens's deal is. It's all good guys and bad guys with him. Sometimes he's worshiping Kurdish terrorists, excoriating some Palestinian terrorist, praising a different Palestinian terrorist, etc. He's all over the place, but he feels VERY STRONGLY about everybody.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-17-2009, 02:31 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
What would be so hard about admitting that invading Iraq was a mistake? I'd even let him get away with saying, "We made an honest mistake." It would boost his credibility, in my eyes, anyway.
Because it wasn't honest and it wasn't a mistake? The war was immoral, illegal and driven by an indefensible ideology.

What if, before he died, Timothy McVeigh had said, "Look guys, blowing up the Federal Building didn't turn out well, but it was an honest mistake."

I will led repentant Dems slide under the (lame) "Bush and Cheney duped us" excuse, but hardcore apologists for the war have nowhere to hide. The war was colossally stupid and criminal. Period.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y s璲uela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-17-2009, 02:33 AM
Lyle
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

I disagree. The world is much better off without Saddam Hussein and his sons in it. The Baathist regime in Iraq was an abomination to human rights. The Iraqi people now have a nascent democracy and the hope for a better future.

Hope and change is what the invasion of Iraq brought to Iraq, hope and change.

Last edited by Lyle; 04-17-2009 at 02:34 AM.. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-17-2009, 03:13 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa家h
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Because it wasn't honest and it wasn't a mistake? The war was immoral, illegal and driven by an indefensible ideology.

What if, before he died, Timothy McVeigh had said, "Look guys, blowing up the Federal Building didn't turn out well, but it was an honest mistake."

I will led repentant Dems slide under the (lame) "Bush and Cheney duped us" excuse, but hardcore apologists for the war have nowhere to hide. The war was colossally stupid and criminal. Period.
Obviously, I agree about the war itself. I was just trying to see things from Kagan's perspective, which I assume means, among other things, a sincere belief that Saddam really did have an active nuclear weapons program that was getting close to completion, and lack of access to know how the intelligence that created that impression was cooked.

I think the McVeigh comparison goes a little far. I would agree with it as applied to Dick Cheney trying to say, "Look, it was an honest mistake." (Which of course will not even happen before this.) Kagan, while culpable for helping to sell the war, did not actually launch it.

However, your point about being a continuing hardcore apologist is a good one. It does compound his crime.
__________________
Brendan

Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-17-2009 at 03:15 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-17-2009, 03:25 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: When Bobs Collide

Quote:
I think the McVeigh comparison goes a little far. I would agree with it as applied to Dick Cheney trying to say, "Look, it was an honest mistake." (Which of course will not even happen before this.) Kagan, while culpable for helping to sell the war, did not actually launch it.
Yes, I agree that there is an important distinction to be drawn between the ideologues like Kagan and the actual perps like Bush, Cheney and their co-conspirators.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y s璲uela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.