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  #1  
Old 05-28-2008, 08:45 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Straight Talk Blues

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  #2  
Old 05-28-2008, 09:51 PM
razib razib is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

should have been titled "All Bald Edition."

matt contineti & will wilkinson should be paired up in the "Luxuriant Haired Gen-X Edition"
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  #3  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:13 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by razib View Post
should have been titled "All Bald Edition."

matt contineti & will wilkinson should be paired up in the "Luxuriant Haired Gen-X Edition"
Re: Bloggingheads 911: Miami
Quote:
Originally Posted by razib:
"am i the only one who wasn't amused by dan's reference to megan as an "ignorant s**t"...some things shouldn't even be said in jest!"
Am I the only one who wasn't amused by razib's dis of the follicular challenged?
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  #4  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:27 PM
razib razib is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

in our genderist society your comparison doesn't hold. we live in a patriarchy, that's a background condition, analyzing male appearance is not problematic because men are not measured by their appearance.
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  #5  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:39 PM
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by razib View Post
in our genderist society your comparison doesn't hold. we live in a patriarchy, that's a background condition, analyzing male appearance is not problematic because men are not measured by their appearance.
Thanks for following up on the original question. I would not try to argue that the examples are equal. But they are relative and to my original point subjective.

"men are not measured by their appearance."
Of course they are: Baldy's vs Sampson's for instance.
Tall vs. short in executive positions etc...
What I was really hoping to get you to address was the question about taboo vs. free speech. If you notice most of the respondents recognized the Drezner remark as a joke. I appreciate that your sensibilities were offended and would respect your wishes for instance, if we were in a social situation. But I was attempting to ask you how far you would go to disallow such a comment?
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  #6  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:45 PM
razib razib is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

i think that we need to create a society which respects the rights and value of those who are oppressed. i *respect* free speech, but i do not worship it. the right of white men to speak and express their opinions must be judged in the background of their history of oppression and the reality of white skin privilege and male patriarchal domination of women. i haven't done a survey of bloggingheads.tv viewers, but i would not be surprised if they were mostly white men, and so of course their own perception of dan drezner's joke would be different than mine as a man of Color.

so let me ask a question of you: where do you want this forum to move? do you want it to diversify and expand outward and include *everyone* into the conversation? then i submit that the bounds of discourse need to be firmly delineated so that those who are traditionally the Other do not feel marginalized.....
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  #7  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:57 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by razib View Post
i think that we need to create a society which respects the rights and value of those who are oppressed. i *respect* free speech, but i do not worship it. the right of white men to speak and express their opinions must be judged in the background of their history of oppression and the reality of white skin privilege and male patriarchal domination of women. i haven't done a survey of bloggingheads.tv viewers, but i would not be surprised if they were mostly white men, and so of course their own perception of dan drezner's joke would be different than mine as a man of Color.

so let me ask a question of you: where do you want this forum to move? do you want it to diversify and expand outward and include *everyone* into the conversation? then i submit that the bounds of discourse need to be firmly delineated so that those who are traditionally the Other do not feel marginalized.....
I don't expect the forum to move anywhere. But I wish to be clear that I do welcome challenges to my speech or supposed privilege. I guess that the forum is a near ideal evironment to work some of these apparent differences out. I am much more inclined to define the bounds of discourse as we go, rather than set-up rules or a charter. For instance, Some colleges have their students sign waivers before engaging in sex, or similarly have established speech codes. This is not an ideal that I would encourage in the larger society or this forum.

As for you being the "other," that seems trickier to address.
Does my own sense of being a stranger in a strange world offset your perceived power imbalance.
Or, what could I do to grant you equal footing?
Mind you, I think you already have it.
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  #8  
Old 05-28-2008, 11:03 PM
razib razib is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

unfortunately equality will not be achieved one person at a time. rather, we need to systematically shift our institutions. to some extent the fact that White Males tend to assume that there is an equal playing field is a signal that they just don't Get It.
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  #9  
Old 05-28-2008, 11:10 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by razib View Post
unfortunately equality will not be achieved one person at a time. rather, we need to systematically shift our institutions. to some extent the fact that White Males tend to assume that there is an equal playing field is a signal that they just don't Get It.
Well I can only offer this as one person, not even conceding my sex or race. I don't think that my characterization of you and I sharing equal footing is a statement that denies the inequalities in our less immediate world at large and institutions.
So we "get it" differently perhaps? But I hear a charge that doesn't pose an obvious, or possible solution.
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  #10  
Old 05-29-2008, 11:55 AM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by razib View Post

so let me ask a question of you: where do you want this forum to move? do you want it to diversify and expand outward and include *everyone* into the conversation? then i submit that the bounds of discourse need to be firmly delineated so that those who are traditionally the Other do not feel marginalized.....
I'm sorry, I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
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  #11  
Old 05-30-2008, 01:20 PM
razib razib is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

such are the wages of complacent acceptance of the White Male Patriarchy!
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  #12  
Old 05-30-2008, 01:45 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by razib View Post
such are the wages of complacent acceptance of the White Male Patriarchy!
You are "King for a Day," what's your prescription for toppling the menace?
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  #13  
Old 05-30-2008, 02:22 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
You are "King for a Day," what's your prescription for toppling the menace?
I know this one is for Razib but this open forum affords me the ability to stick my
cyber-proboscis in anywhere. "King for a Day" wouldn't help much, but if there was a way to put someone like, say DT, in a position where if he goes even ten miles out of a major city and stops for gas he gets stared at like a flea infested rat, or every time he gets a prescription filled he's leered at and sexually taunted walking down the street, every single day for say, five years, or his entire lifetime, maybe he might be a little less inclined to act like a victim and lash out at those who know what abuse is really all about, many of whom, in spite of my poor examples, and having endured much, much worse, have transcended victim hood, and done as much to break the cycle of abuse as he's probably done to promote it.
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  #14  
Old 05-30-2008, 02:49 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
I know this one is for Razib but this open forum affords me the ability to stick my
cyber-proboscis in anywhere. "King for a Day" wouldn't help much, but if there was a way to put someone like, say DT, in a position where if he goes even ten miles out of a major city and stops for gas he gets stared at like a flea infested rat, or every time he gets a prescription filled he's leered at and sexually taunted walking down the street, every single day for say, five years, or his entire lifetime, maybe he might be a little less inclined to act like a victim and lash out at those who know what abuse is really all about, many of whom, in spite of my poor examples, and having endured much, much worse, have transcended victim hood, and done as much to break the cycle of abuse as he's probably done to promote it.
I think it was jh in sd who asked a similar question, but highlighting the opposite side of the coin: How constructive is it to hold on to and perpetuate the resentment? You grant the victims saintly status by suggesting that they have endured and persevered. Well where does it end, particularly on a message board.
I see your slight and raise you an indiscretion. Only to be trumped by a miscarriage of justice. You may very well open the eyes of a naif, but as TSE stated, know your audience. Should every post regarding sensitive subjects -and which aren't for that matter - offer a disclaimer?
Warning: Before posting I wish to recognize the sensibilities off all who might be offended by my remarks. And furthermore grant special victim status to any who believe that they are lower than me on the societal ladder.
DT might be a comedian honing his insult joke skills. razib might be a high powered female executive. My inclination is to credit your request for recognition that the world is not fair and to cut victims some slack.
But, I am just not feelin' it in this case.
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  #15  
Old 05-30-2008, 03:04 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

This is too good not to throw into the mix.
It is a macro view vs. my mini view.

Thread: Class of 2008 Commencement Edition View Single Post
#90
Today, 11:52 AM
pod2


Re: Whiteness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard from Amherst
pod2, your synopsis of the issue of "whiteness" is really quite excellent.



Could you expand thoughts on the subject with a discussion of how "class" it relates to power, privilege, gender and race?

There are a many people who are included in the "whiteness" category who though they are "white" are quite powerless and destitute of privilege.

Please consider further discussing Glen's point about the rightness or wrongness of a feeling of racial solidarity among that unhappy subset of "white" people.

I really think this is a quite important subject if we stand any chance of moving to move toward a post racial and equitable society.




Quote: pod2:

"Richard,
Thanks for the compliment, if you weren't being facetious.

Of course conversations about class have to include power as an important, if not determinative element. In discussions of class warfare, to the extent that it's mentioned in polite company in the US, it's often framed as if it's a battle between equally matched factions. Those who are used to planning the economy resent it when all the rest of us try to have a say in what decisions are made and how these plans are carried out. I find that cries of 'class warfare,' when they come as part of an objection to pro-working class activity or rhetoric, roughly mirror those who loudly decry the 'racism' of Jeremiah Wright.

As for how class intersects with race vis a vis privilege and power, there are obviously, within a society as complex as the US, a whole bunch of ways that any individual or group may be privileged, empowered, or not. An upper middle class black heterosexual male has obvious advantages in power, influence, and status over an unemployed, destitute gay white man. And yet, this destitute white individual does have the luxury of turning on the tv and finding incredibly diverse representations of people who look like him. He doesn't have to worry about "representing" his race in a job interview. He does not get shot to death by the police as he tries to go home from work. If he shaves and puts on a nice shirt, he does not get followed around by store security in the mall. You get the idea, and I'm sure this isn't news to anyone. The advantage of white skin extends broadly into the criminal justice system. If you're white and someone in your family is kidnapped, raped, or murdered, there is a better chance of the perp catching serious jail time. If someone in your family does drugs, there is less chance that they will be doing a 20 year prison term for a nonviolent crime. Etc. etc. into education, housing, mortality, health.

Being female or working/lower class or homosexual or undocumented have a different array of disadvantages for each, ranging from abstract stereotype threat-like cultural representation ones (see the Fatal Attraction debate within the Gratuitous Disrespect Edition diavlog comments section) to health and economic ones. I don't see that one kind of disadvantage (or oppression, dare I say) trumps the other, but they do have different attributes and characteristics, and they intersect in complicated and ever changing ways. Racism and sexism are somewhat unique in that it is more difficult to 'pass' as a member of the dominant culture-- gay men can come out of the closet, but black men don't have a closet where they can pretend they're white. Physical, melanin-based characteristics that are the catalyst for activating racist stereotypes are unavoidable and unambiguous markers of otherness. To tip the scales a little bit more, consider that most Americans have a woman somewhere in their immediate family, and that this serves to mitigate the power of the Other-based prejudices or misconceptions of sexism. Most Americans do not have an African American in their immediate family, however.

As for racial solidarity among white Appalachians, it comes out of a proud lineage that has crippled possible progress in the labor movement for nearly 100 years. The efforts of many to use or develop racist tropes to refocus economic and class-based gripes about the existing order have been a recurring and successful aspect of union busting for a while. Focusing working people on untrustworthy brown skinned people (works just as well with the immigration issue) instead of letting them focus on the people and institutions that actually control their workplaces and their economic well being is quite sensible, even though it's disgusting. And Obama kind of combines the two targets of this working class ire-- the brown skinned other, and the elitist manager who goes off to Harvard and then comes back ready to downsize, outsource, and get more 'efficient.' Just because these tropes are completely pernicious and untrue in this case doesn't mean they aren't powerful.

I'm not sure whether this is what you were asking, but that's part of my answer anyway."
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  #16  
Old 05-30-2008, 03:36 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

I will concede you are right by way of recognizing my over simplification and countering with the real and extreme reality of the complexity of the issue, but getting back to the original thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
Re: Bloggingheads 911: Miami
Quote:
Originally Posted by razib:
"am i the only one who wasn't amused by dan's reference to megan as an "ignorant s**t"...some things shouldn't even be said in jest!"
Am I the only one who wasn't amused by razib's dis of the follicular challenged?
I will reserve the right to call your wife an ignorant s**t, and you can make fun of my bald head and we will call it "even". Fair enough?
Of course it still makes me look like an ass, and that was one of the things I was trying to help with, without pointing directly to the appearance.
If you are comfortable with that, then who am I?
Not an insult jokester honing my non-existent skills anyway....
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  #17  
Old 05-30-2008, 03:51 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
I will concede you are right by way of recognizing my over simplification and countering with the real and extreme reality of the complexity of the issue, but getting back to the original thread:

I will reserve the right to call your wife an ignorant s**t, and you can make fun of my bald head and we will call it "even". Fair enough?
Of course it still makes me look like an ass, and that was one of the things I was trying to help with, without pointing directly to the appearance.
If you are comfortable with that, then who am I?
Not an insult jokester honing my non-existent skills anyway....
I'm not sure what we are arguing about at this point, but I will try again from a different angle.
Every other poster on 911:Miami commented on the Dan Akroyd/Jane Curtin skit as the basis for Drezner's remark.
I still don't know if Razib is aware of this point or wants to contend that regardless of the impetus, some things are sacred. In other words: Never joke about a woman like that - it's sexist.
Well, that's actually what he said.
And I say: Free country, free speech, complain if you like about Patriarchy etc... But do you respect my right to say it?
I hear him suggesting that if he were "King for a Day," free speech would be curtailed and I might have to do penance for exercising my privilege for so long.
And I say: I have never victimized you, do not wish to offend you, but respectfully disagree with your assessment of the crime in expressing the "ignorant slut" comment.
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  #18  
Old 05-30-2008, 04:10 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
I'm not sure what we are arguing about at this point, but I will try again from a different angle.
Every other poster on 911:Miami commented on the Dan Akroyd/Jane Curtin skit as the basis for Drezner's remark.
I still don't know if Razib is aware of this point or wants to contend that regardless of the impetus, some things are sacred. In other words: Never joke about a woman like that - it's sexist.
Well, that's actually what he said.
And I say: Free country, free speech, complain if you like about Patriarchy etc... But do you respect my right to say it?
I hear him suggesting that if he were "King for a Day," free speech would be curtailed and I might have to do penance for exercising my privilege for so long.
And I say: I have never victimized you, do not wish to offend you, but respectfully disagree with your assessment of the crime in expressing the "ignorant slut" comment.
The SNL skit was a parody of a real wingnut on the tube back then as a perfect example of a sexist and asinine remark even for the '70's. I will see your "free speech argument" and raise you a "right to appear to be a clueless white guy in a bubble even when you are not" because I think you are not and forgive me for sort of caring for a minute. But I'm over it.
Cheers, and have a nice weekend!
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  #19  
Old 05-30-2008, 04:13 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
Cheers, and have a nice weekend!
Thanks,
You too.
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  #20  
Old 05-30-2008, 04:23 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

I know I just sorta signed off there, but something just occurred to me, what about somebody posting that they are sexually attracted to a blogging head? I get the point about free speech, but does that mean we can't argue decorum, or respect for the venue?
Just curious...

Last edited by handle; 05-30-2008 at 04:27 PM.. Reason: extra word
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  #21  
Old 05-30-2008, 04:32 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
I know I just sorta signed off there, but something just occurred to me, what about somebody posting that they are sexually attracted to a blogging head? I get the point about free speech, but does that mean we can't argue about decorum, or respect for the venue?
Just curious...
This question has already been tested by the eloquent federovingtonboop.
I guess the limits are set by the posters. Some remarked about sexism and let it drop there. He has continued to post, although Bob did take away his most provocative posts from the homepage and moved it to the comments page.
In general I think that self policing works but isn't perfect.
And for the record, I think that I made my best effort with razib. And as is his right he chose to remain aloof but still accusatory. I am one poster, not a nation or an ideal. But I will always come down on the side of free speech, even if I have to be reminded to temper it from time to time.
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  #22  
Old 05-30-2008, 06:35 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
I know I just sorta signed off there, but something just occurred to me, what about somebody posting that they are sexually attracted to a blogging head? I get the point about free speech, but does that mean we can't argue decorum, or respect for the venue?
Just curious...
It seems to me that some people are offended by this from the get-go, if the remarks are made about a female diavlogger, because of the suggestion (intended or not) that she is being judged by her looks when she's here to show off her mind.

It also seems to me that even if the first such comment is fairly innocuous, there is a tendency for responses to go a little farther and then a little farther, and then ... Not so much here, but on Web forums in general.

It's fairly obvious when someone is physically attractive. I'm not sure what new information is added by someone saying so out loud. So, my feeling is such remarks should be avoided.

My two cents.
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  #23  
Old 05-30-2008, 11:11 PM
jh in sd jh in sd is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Graz, I'm with you on this one. The "ignorant slut" joke has followed me around since it first appeared on SNL. (For the record, I am not ignorant, nor a slut). The first time a guy said it to me, I nearly punched him because I hadn't seen the SNL episode. Once I understood the context, I found it pretty amusing. Now I have a few male friends who throw it at me when I am winning an argument against them. Again, pretty amusing to me, although if I were a slut or ignortant maybe I wouldn't find it to be. I think the sexism card is overplayed on trivial things. Also, I hate political correctness being used as a form of censorship. I think it best not to take offense when none is intended.
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  #24  
Old 05-30-2008, 11:54 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by jh in sd View Post
Graz, I'm with you on this one. The "ignorant slut" joke has followed me around since it first appeared on SNL. (For the record, I am not ignorant, nor a slut). The first time a guy said it to me, I nearly punched him because I hadn't seen the SNL episode.
Maybe the "j" in jh in sd is for Jane. Even if not, I promise to be respectful.
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  #25  
Old 05-31-2008, 10:22 AM
jh in sd jh in sd is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Graz, You could be on to something. I promise I won't punch you.
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  #26  
Old 05-30-2008, 02:10 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by razib View Post
such are the wages of complacent acceptance of the White Male Patriarchy!
Save it for Women's Studies class. I'm sure there's a wonderful term paper waiting to be written that applies Kate Millett's theories on sexual discourse to internet message boards. Your time would be better served writing that paper instead of urging internet posters to rise up against patriarchy.

Know your audience!

Last edited by Thus Spoke Elvis; 05-30-2008 at 02:19 PM..
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  #27  
Old 05-30-2008, 02:18 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thus Spoke Elvis View Post
Save it for Womens Studies class. I'm sure there's a wonderful term paper waiting to be written that applies Kate Millet's theories on sexual discourse to internet message boards. Your time would be better served writing that paper instead of urging internet posters to rise up against patriarchy.

Know your audience!
I'm glad to see that you recovered from the "bile incident." (see above).
I have made my best effort to draw razib out on these bromides and victim statements. He is still hiding behind his complaints. So the challenge remains.
He is "free" to have at it.
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  #28  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:37 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

The Yul Brenner Edition.

John
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  #29  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:40 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
The Yul Brenner Edition.

John
A powerful fellow indeed.
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  #30  
Old 05-28-2008, 11:18 PM
jh in sd jh in sd is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Matthew and Will, the Babyfaced Bloggingheads!
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  #31  
Old 05-28-2008, 11:26 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by jh in sd View Post
Matthew and Will, the Babyfaced Bloggingheads!
I think Bob should check Matthew's ID.
Or maybe apply a curfew.
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  #32  
Old 05-29-2008, 12:22 PM
Joel_Cairo Joel_Cairo is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by razib View Post
should have been titled "All Bald Edition."

matt contineti & will wilkinson should be paired up in the "Luxuriant Haired Gen-X Edition"
I'm down. In the past, I've suggested a Jon Chait/Mark Schmitt match-up unflatteringly entitled "The Pear-Shaped Pair."
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  #33  
Old 05-28-2008, 09:55 PM
razib razib is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

pedantic point: people on oreg-O-n pronounce it oreg-Y-n.
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  #34  
Old 05-30-2008, 01:14 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Straight Talk Blues

think you mean oryGUN
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  #35  
Old 05-29-2008, 12:02 AM
David Thomson David Thomson is offline
 
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Default "The secret to winning elections: the white working class"

I own and have read Ruy Teixeira's book dealing with white voters. He is a guy who is trying to teach the Democrats how to con the non-Ivy League white person. Teixeira knows very well that white people---especially males are second class citizens. The Democrats have every intention of sticking it to them real good. Obama is an affirmative action Harvard yuppie. He is going to make sure to "expand the rights" of minorities at the expense of whites. Every white person thinking of voting for Obama should read about the busing scandals of some forty years ago. It would also behoove them to study the disgraceful 1971 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Griggs vs. Duke Power.
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  #36  
Old 05-29-2008, 12:10 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: "The secret to winning elections: the white working class"

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Thomson View Post
Teixeira knows very well that white people---especially males are second class citizens.
Quote:razib:
"rather, we need to systematically shift our institutions. to some extent the fact that White Males tend to assume that there is an equal playing field is a signal that they just don't Get It."

You two could effectively cancel each other out. So the playing field is level after all.
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  #37  
Old 05-29-2008, 09:47 AM
ogieogie ogieogie is offline
 
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Default Re: "The secret to winning elections: the white working class"

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post

You two could effectively cancel each other out. So the playing field is level after all.
Except that Razib is a reasonable person who is dealing with reality, whereas Dave is a paranoid racist fool. Not quite of equal weight here.
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  #38  
Old 05-29-2008, 03:18 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: "The secret to winning elections: the white working class"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogieogie View Post
Except that Razib is a reasonable person who is dealing with reality, whereas Dave is a paranoid racist fool. Not quite of equal weight here.
They may both be equally reasonable, if extreme.
I don't know how to disabuse David of his myopia.
But if razib's take is reality, then how or in what way is he "dealing?"
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  #39  
Old 05-30-2008, 03:04 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: "The secret to winning elections: the white working class"

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Originally Posted by graz View Post
They may both be equally reasonable, if extreme.
I don't know how to disabuse David of his myopia.
But if razib's take is reality, then how or in what way is he "dealing?"
He's trying to make it clear that there is a big difference between being the oppressed and the oppressor. And saying that both are equal fair game is to trivialize the oppression. Which is what us white guys do because we don't have first hand experience. Except DT, of course, in his mind, anyway.
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  #40  
Old 05-30-2008, 09:46 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: "The secret to winning elections: the white working class"

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Originally Posted by graz View Post
You two could effectively cancel each other out. So the playing field is level after all.
Heh. Well said.
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