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Old 09-03-2010, 02:23 PM
soral soral is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 5
Default Re: Poetaster Edition (Hussein Ibish & Eli Lake)

Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Yes, I agree that Israel is a fait accompli and there is no turning back the clock. Israel exists. Period. I put "right to exist" in quotes above because Zionist have turned it into a loaded phrase by demanding recognition of "right to exist" as a precondition of negotiations. But no one is going to revoke Israel. It's a done deal.
Thank you for agreeing with me. As regards the right to exist, well, just because it's being used as a precondition to negotiations (although apparently it has been dropped as such) by Netanyahu et al., does not mean that there should be any confusion regarding the actual right in question. I would ask that you simply state at the beginning that you do not approve of the issue's use as a precondition, but refrain from causing confusion about a right you recognize explicitly, as you have now stated. I only ask this because major parties to the I/P conflict such as Hamas and Hezb. take the position that Israel indeed does not have a right to exist and therefore work to undermine that existence.

Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post


Again, not disputing the right to exist. I question the legitimacy. The occupation is completely illegitimate in my view; the Settlements are worse; the land grab outside the Green Line is just as bad, and the whole stupid enterprise of Settlements + Occupation + Land grab going on for 42 years is beyond unconscionable.

Remember that the quote I responded to was the following:

"The entire enterprise of a "Jewish state," no matter how secular it claims to be, is suspect (as are Muslim states). If you're so secular, why call yourself Jewish?"

Stating that the entire enterprise of a Jewish state is suspect is similar to saying that the state has no right to exist, so you can perhaps forgive my confusion on this point. I agree that the occupation is wholly illegitimate. However, the occupation is a policy of the Israeli government and has no more bearing on the right of the state to exist than the Iraq War has on the right of the United States to exist. In other words, none.

Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post

Jim Crow is not exactly a high bar.
Perhaps not, but it is the bar you raised. You wrote, again putting "right to exist" in quote marks,

"Israel has a "right to exist," but it must evolve beyond Jim Crow and toward equal rights for all its citizens. I don't think that's really possible as a "Jewish state," but I certainly welcome reforms that go in the right direction, eg. civil marriage, immigration reform, and so on."

I argued that your use of the term 'Jim Crow' is hyperbolic because Israel moved beyond Jim Crow at its very founding. And as you stated that this already-accomplished advancement was impossible while Israel remained a Jewish state, I refute that point as well.

Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Yes, he wrote a book about it. Again, good luck with that. I'm not a believer in two-state, but technically I'm an agnostic.
There are simply a wealth of reasons, if one is concerned about the future of the Palestinian and Israeli peoples, to believe in the superiority of a two-state outcome to the present impasse. This does not mean that one must believe that the two-state solution is likely to happen. As Ibish writes, a two-state solution may not even be likely in the immediate future, but it should be a profoundly preferred outcome of the conflict. I believe this idea deserves support.
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