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  #1  
Old 06-25-2009, 12:58 PM
CanWeGetSomeCommonSense CanWeGetSomeCommonSense is offline
 
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Default The hesitancy heard around the world..

Just a few thoughts:

The motor of denouncement against Iran’s maniacal dictatorship started coldly and revved up too slowly to get the vehicle moving in the right direction. If Pres. Obama believes that there will be meaningful dialog with Iran he has already lost the battle. You cannot reason with irrationality.

His best opportunity for dialog would be to have conversation with someone in Iran who believes that diplomacy is a legitimate form of interaction.This may only happen when the current crazed dictator is toppled.

His hesitancy does give rise to speculation concerning his "love" of democracy.
Why was Obama willing to err on the side of a maniacal dictator rather than swiftly condemn attacks on a pro democratic movement?

I believe the answer may lurk in the flotsam and jetsam surrounding Obama's multi cultural upbringing. Obama may actually believe that democracy is just "one of the many options" that is available to the nations even when it is placed alongside oppressive dictatorial regimes.

What Obama's detractors have feared has finally come to pass on the global scene. His Muslim roots may have begun to crowd out his understanding of American, democratic values that venerate freedom, personal rights, and the government working for the people rather than government working against the people.



Oh, by the way..an excellent piece from Jeff Jacoby. Sheds some light as to why Pres. Obama may be hesitant to speak out on behalf of a pro-freedom movement in Iran.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ed...ord_for_obama/
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  #2  
Old 06-25-2009, 03:25 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

If Obama cared about defending or promoting theocratic Islamic governments he would be arguing on behalf of the regime and trying to reconcile them with protesters.

Think about it this way: you know how the US right has deranged nightmares about Obama being a secret agent for Mohammed? The Iranian right is similarly paranoid about their opponents being secret agents for Uncle Sam. If Khamenei defended Obama in the name of the revealed truth of Islam, the entire US right would simultaneously orgasm. If Obama defends the protesters in the name of democracy promotion, the Iranian right would be just as overjoyed.
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2009, 03:42 PM
CanWeGetSomeCommonSense CanWeGetSomeCommonSense is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

He is not president of a Muslim country. He is president of the country that stands for democracy...ya know...freedom? As president of the United States he is responsible for promoting and defending freedom and democracy and yes on a global scale as well. He choked.
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  #4  
Old 06-25-2009, 03:51 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanWeGetSomeCommonSense View Post
He is not president of a Muslim country. He is president of the country that stands for democracy...ya know...freedom? As president of the United States he is responsible for promoting and defending freedom and democracy and yes on a global scale as well. He choked.
Have a look at this post.

Also, given that you describe your location as ...

Quote:
Texas, the state that may become a separate nation.
... I hardly think you have much of a place to stand when talking about what the United States should do.
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  #5  
Old 06-25-2009, 05:16 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanWeGetSomeCommonSense View Post
He is not president of a Muslim country. He is president of the country that stands for democracy...ya know...freedom? As president of the United States he is responsible for promoting and defending freedom and democracy and yes on a global scale as well. He choked.
You don't get it. By equating America with democracy you're making my point for me; if the Iranian regime got a hold of your post it would use it as proof that the protesters and reformers are just acting on behalf of America. You want the President to serve as tool for propaganda and recruitment for the worst kind of theocratic bullies.

edit: To put it more succinctly, you're demanding that the President act in a way that clearly demonstrates his goodwill but also foolishly bungles things and makes the world and US security worse for it. This is Bush foreign policy, America doesn't want that any more.

Last edited by pampl; 06-25-2009 at 05:18 PM..
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  #6  
Old 06-25-2009, 05:24 PM
CanWeGetSomeCommonSense CanWeGetSomeCommonSense is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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  #7  
Old 06-25-2009, 05:35 PM
CanWeGetSomeCommonSense CanWeGetSomeCommonSense is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

No. You don't get it my misinformed reader;

"Amnesty International is calling on the government of Iran to stop using the Basij militia to police demonstrations with immediate effect. The call follows reports that the members of the militia have used excessive force against demonstrators and is made in the light of the history of abuses committed by this unaccountable branch of the security forces. "

"19 June 2009
Seven prominent political leaders are thought to be at risk of torture or other ill treatment, after they were arrested this week in connection with their perceived views on Iran’s disputed presidential election. They should be released immediately and unconditionally."

If you believe that America should stand with her hands behind her back while atrocities are committed against human beings who want freedom then I invite you to live in Iran, or any other dictatorship for a few months. You will come back with a fresh appreciation for freedom.

It is dictators who oppress people and the cowards of freedom turn their heads and whistle que sera sera.
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  #8  
Old 06-25-2009, 05:56 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanWeGetSomeCommonSense View Post
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Easy enough to say, but it doesn't carry much weight with me in light of how you choose to identify your location.

But never mind that. I take secessionists about as seriously as I take Birthers. The real question is: did you follow the link in my last post?
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2009, 06:58 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default can we get some common sense?

not from canwegetsomecommonsense
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  #10  
Old 06-25-2009, 07:10 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

Did you actually read the post that you are allegedly responding to?
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  #11  
Old 06-25-2009, 07:28 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Please Don't Feed the Troll

Title says it.
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  #12  
Old 06-25-2009, 07:56 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: Please Don't Feed the Troll

I can't believe that someone who was presumably conscious for the last decade could want the President to be more of a good-natured idiot. The US isn't some rink-a-dink little country, its words and actions are actually important. When the Bush administration publicly talked about supporting Iranian reformers it directly lead to those reformers being tortured. What you want will directly lead to Iranians being hurt just to appease some know-nothing Americans who couldn't tell the difference between freedom and tyranny if their lives depended on it. Which, of course, it never would; for a case in point notice how Tehran is clamping down on students and academics not ignorant hicks.
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  #13  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:48 PM
Lyle
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Default Re: Please Don't Feed the Troll

pampl,

Aren't Ahmadi and Khamaeni hurting Iranians today despite Obama's lack of interest?

People need to realize that dictators and thugs do whatever they want when the want and it doesn't matter if the U.S. is ignoring them, bad mouthing them, or codling up to them.

I get the sophisticated point about not saying anything is the best for the reasons you state. I agree. Obama's lawyering is coming out and he's keeping quiet. The problem is he's keeping quiet and they're still beating up and killing people. It's not like the U.S. can stop the Iranian government from doing what it's going to do. Might as well follow some European leaders' lead and bad mouth Ahmadi. All engagement hopes with Ahamdi are now over with anyway.
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  #14  
Old 06-26-2009, 12:03 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Please Don't Feed the Troll

You know, this isn't a binary situation. Just because things are not good, does not mean we can't make them worse.
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  #15  
Old 06-26-2009, 12:29 AM
Lyle
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Default Re: Please Don't Feed the Troll

That is a possibility (good point and I agree with you), however Ahmadi and Khamaeni would have to step it up a level to mass killings which they can't do and still be legit in the eyes of the faithful.

So what we have is an Iranian regime accusing people of being CIA agents just like they did during the Bush administration. Nothing has changed. Rhetoric won't change Ahmadi and Khamaeni. If we say nothing, the CIA is still killing Iranians. If we speak, the CIA is still killing Iranians.

I don't disagree with Obama's tact on Iran. I'd have taken the same position, mainly cause it was the opposite of Bush and it's the perceived sophisticated position to take, but the reality is it doesn't matter what we say. Whatever we do or don't do, say or don't say, it will always be America's fault. That's probably the most important lesson any American interested in foreign affairs can learn from traveling and living abroad. We'll get blamed no matter what. Obama ain't no more special than Bush in the eyes of our nemeses.
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  #16  
Old 06-26-2009, 02:46 AM
CanWeGetSomeCommonSense CanWeGetSomeCommonSense is offline
 
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Default Re: can we get some common sense?

“Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.”
William James
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  #17  
Old 06-26-2009, 02:47 AM
CanWeGetSomeCommonSense CanWeGetSomeCommonSense is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

Did you?
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  #18  
Old 06-26-2009, 03:03 AM
CanWeGetSomeCommonSense CanWeGetSomeCommonSense is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

Were you born here or did you jump the fence?

In my years of education and experience I have found that those who criticize this nation , and the states of this nation, are malcontents who have never even traveled outside of this country. Which, by the way, our current administration is spending our grand children's money faster than they can print it so you might want to get in line and buy a plane ticket to visit...say...Iran? Gaza Strip? Libya? Be sure to tell them you are members of the free press and you will get the VIP treatment.
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  #19  
Old 06-26-2009, 09:26 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The hesitancy heard around the world..

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanWeGetSomeCommonSense View Post
Were you born here or did you jump the fence?

In my years of education and experience I have found that those who criticize this nation , and the states of this nation, are malcontents who have never even traveled outside of this country.
So, all the people who "jumped the fence" never have anything bad to say about the US? Sounds like you're recommending that in order to increase patriotic sentiment, then, we need more fence-jumpers.

Actually, it has been my experience that those who have never traveled outside of the US are the ones more likely to have a child-like devotion to it and are unable to admit of the possibility that maybe, just maybe, we and our government have been less than perfect at times.

You appear to be one of those people who places great stock in anecdotal evidence, so, fwiw: I was born in these United States and I have traveled outside of them about ten times.

The rest of your comment is overflowing with stupid -- and compared to what I've already quoted, that is really saying something -- so I'll just ignore it. Time to start doing what I should have done earlier: follow Jeff's recommendation.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 06-26-2009 at 11:43 AM.. Reason: word fix
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