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  #1  
Old 02-15-2010, 12:20 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Hope for HCR?

Good news for Healthcare? Looks like the White House/Dems are finally learning how to force the Republican's bluff on all their ideas for reform. Ezra here. The Jon Cohn and Steve Benen links are also worth reading.
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2010, 01:31 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Good news for Healthcare? Looks like the White House/Dems are finally learning how to force the Republican's bluff on all their ideas for reform. Ezra here. The Jon Cohn and Steve Benen links are also worth reading.
I wish somebody had kept a list of all the people who pronounced HCR dead because if it passes I'd like to remind all of them that they were wrong.
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2010, 04:25 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

If HCR finally becomes a reality, that is an I-told-you-so that I won't mind announcing to all of my Dem friends who were SO eager to raise the white flag a few weeks ago.
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  #4  
Old 02-16-2010, 12:01 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

Quote:
If HCR finally becomes a reality, that is an I-told-you-so that I won't mind announcing to all of my Dem friends who were SO eager to raise the white flag a few weeks ago.
Eb, the only people raising the white flag are Democratic Congress members.

When you have them demonstrating the requisite political courage to pass HCR, let me know, and I will be happy to eat all the crow you desire.

In the meantime, the Dems. are a train wreck, Obama is a disappointing leader, Bushian perpetual war and occupation continues unabated, and change ain't happening.

Don't blame your friends.
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  #5  
Old 02-16-2010, 11:47 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

Wonder, my problem is with both civilians AND Dem elected officials. Both have been too quick to concede thet HCR is "dead" when it's not. This woe-is-me attitude by many on the Left, is not helpfull considering that the game is not over yet. It's a wishy-washy, defeatist attitude that cripples the ability to pass good (albeit imperfect) legislation, and it reinforces every no-backbone claim that the GOP has been labeling the Left with for years. What's saddest is the quickness with which so many want to blame Obama. I still have yet to see an alternate history, given the political landscape, the self interests of congress, pharma, insurance etc., the loss of Ted Kennedy etc. that argues convincingly for how HCR could have gotten through more easily or in a more progressive form. If you're aware of some magic bullet theory out there that is convincing, by all means let me know. But most of the people who seem to have the strongest grasp on healthcare and the legislative process (Ezra, Mark Schmitt, John Cohn etc.) seem to be rather impressed that two HCR bills have successfully passed the House and Senate and are within spitting distance of the finish line. The biggest difference at this point is that some people want to keep pushing through and some want to gripe about how much further there is to go and point fingers of blame. Are there things Obama could have done better? Certainly. Is it obvious what he should have done? No. Is it obvious that doing X or Y would have reuslted in swift passage of HCR? I don't think so. Either way, it ain't over yet. When HCR officially dies, we can haggle about where it went wrong but for the time being I think there's more important things to do, like try to keep it alive.
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  #6  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:50 AM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
I wish somebody had kept a list of all the people who pronounced HCR dead because if it passes I'd like to remind all of them that they were wrong.
I voiced skepticism that democrats would let it die, I thought they would move before Brown was seated, so was wrong on that, but the idea that they would just shrivel and shrink into a cave, after all the damage caused to them by pushing so far seemed bizarre to me.


It goes against basic human nature, same reason people hold onto losing stocks longer than stocks that rise. Selling after a loss feels worse so damn it all, screw consequences in later elections, let's at least strike the health care blow if we must die in 2010. Die with a smile, not resentment, die with the knowledge that it was not all in vain, they got SOMETHING for their loss.


Basic wargaming seems to suggest that even if republicans took both houses, they would not have enough seats in the senate to completely repeal the legislation and overturn the presidents veto.


That is the good news, but guys, if it turns out to be the case, as many of us believe, that costs will rise sharply because of this legislation, you WILL pay, long term. Say whatever else you want to say, hcr was NOT the prime issue people cared about most, it was the prime issue liberals cared about most.

If I were a liberal, I would fear the costs more than anything else. As it stands, the middle class, the elderly, and children are already covered by some form of insurance for the most part. The benefactors are there, but much of the gain in coverage will be from a constituency you have locked down in unthinking loyalty already.

But what do I know, all guesses. We'll see.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:19 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

EK:

Quote:
What Greg Sargent is hearing tracks roughly with what I'm hearing: The House and Senate are nearing a compromise bill that the president can present at the Blair House Summit. That compromise looks a lot like we expected it to look: Nationally regulated exchanges, a deal on the excise tax, somewhat better subsidies and so forth. The question is simply whether the summit will give Democrats the courage to move forward. Or whether the Democratic leadership can convince its members that not moving forward is actually scarier:

Quote:
Senate Dem leaders are warming to the use of “reconciliation” to fix their bill after the summit, a senior Senate aide says.

“We’re getting closer,” the Senate aide says of reconciliation, adding that the leadership is more likely to pursue that course if the summit doesn’t yield any kind of compromise with Republicans, as expected. “People want to get rid of health care. They want it off the agenda. The simplest answer is that reconciliation may be the most expedient way to do it.”
That's an important point: Pass health-care reform and it moves off the Senate's everyday agenda, which also means it moves out of the daily news cycles. Continue to let it linger and it will haunt Democrats right up until Election Day.

I'll also note that I'm detecting more confidence among Hill aides lately. They sound a lot less down and a lot less uncertain than they did a few weeks ago. The prevailing view is that everybody realizes they have to pass something, and though passing something will be hard, most are willing to bet that it will happen.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...e_refor_1.html
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  #8  
Old 02-20-2010, 11:15 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

PK, today:

Quote:
Health Care: Game On

Well, this certainly sounds like it’s a go. That’s the style, Mr. President!

If this works out — I’d think the odds now are that it will, though it’s by no means a done deal — there will be endless debate about whether Anthem Blue Cross was wot did it. My sense is that a final push was always available, as long as the White House was willing to take a stand; Anthem may just have helped provide an occasion.

Extra dividend: Jonathan Chait is right, conservatives will freak out. They’ve already been celebrating the defeat of HCR, failing to notice that Democrats have actually passed a bill in both houses, and still have a huge majority. And there will be cries of foul play — how dare Democrats actually follow the Constitution!

And if health care passes, and job numbers turn positive, November may be very different from what the Tea Party expects.
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  #9  
Old 02-20-2010, 11:24 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

We're waiting and hopeful.
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  #10  
Old 02-20-2010, 11:29 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
We're waiting and hopeful.
The thing that I find especially encouraging here is that Krugman is not exactly known for his optimism, especially regarding the current crop of Dems.
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  #11  
Old 02-21-2010, 12:18 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

More signs for hope.
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  #12  
Old 02-21-2010, 12:42 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
More signs for hope.
That is good news. Let us hope ol' Harry isn't just floating a trial balloon.

But meantime, thanks for passing this along.
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  #13  
Old 02-21-2010, 01:22 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

The Republicans stopped HCR on 2nd and goal. Good for them! Chait:

Quote:
You can imagine how this feels to conservatives. They've already run off the field, sprayed themselves with champagne and taunted the losing team's fans. And now the other team is saying the game is still on and they have a good chance to win. There may be nothing wrong at all with the process, but it's certainly going to feel like some kind of crime to the right-wing. The Democrats may not win, but I'm pretty sure they're going to try. The conservative freakout is going to be something to behold.
Wee!
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  #14  
Old 03-03-2010, 04:23 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Nothing is over until we decide it is

If HCR is really dead this guy don't know it yet.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002596/
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  #15  
Old 03-03-2010, 04:52 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Nothing is over until we decide it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
If HCR is really dead this guy don't know it yet.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002596/
Excellent subject line!

And thanks for the link. That was an inspiring thing to watch.
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  #16  
Old 03-12-2010, 06:38 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Nothing is over until we decide it is

It's not a comeback because it was never dead.

More good news:

Quote:
SEIU Warns Dems: If You Don’t Back Reform, We Won’t Back You

Hardball time.

In what seems intended as a shot across the bow of House Dems wavering on health reform, top officials with the labor powerhouse SEIU have bluntly told a Democratic member that they will pull their support for him — and will likely field a challenger against him — if he votes No on the Senate bill.

Dem Rep Mike McMahon of New York met yesterday with a top SEIU official and told him he’s likely to vote No, the official tells me. The official: Mike Fishman, president of SEIU 32bj, the largest property workers union in the country, with 120,000 members in eight states.

Fishman told McMahon that the union would not support him if he voted No — and suggested the hunt for a primary or third-party challenger would follow.

“He let us know he’s not supportive of the health care plan,” Fishman says. “We’ve let him know that we can’t support somebody who doesn’t support it.”

“We are going to begin talking to other unions about finding someone else for that seat,” Fishman continued.
...

“We put an enormous amount of effort into electing Democrats,” Fishman said. “This is the most important issue on everyone’s plate. We’re sending a message to Democrats: If you can’t support this, we can’t support you.”
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/la...wont-back-you/
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  #17  
Old 03-06-2010, 02:12 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

Always look on the dark side!

Quote:
I've come around to the notion that Democrats' best hope is to pass health care reform -- not because I believe that voters will magically warm to HCR once it's signed into law (actual beneficiaries of the few provisions that kick in early might have that reaction, but flagrantly dishonest GOP messaging will still dominate with regard to the rest of the bill). No -- the reason passing HCR might help the Democrats is that the GOP and right-wing crazies will go stark raving mad (or I should say even more stark raving mad) when and if this happens; the demonstrations are going to get more extreme, the signage is going to be even more threatening, there'll be calls for impeachment (and probably for a coup, and I mean that literally), and there'll probably be an uptick in at least attempted violence -- if HCR passes, security at all federal buildings should be beefed up immediately). Assuming (as I do) that the economy doesn't magically start generating jobs, this is really the Democrats' only hope going into November: the fact that they won't seem to be the party of anarchy and chaos.
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  #18  
Old 03-06-2010, 12:46 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default conservatives love Medicare

I see that McCain is trying to get Medicare exempted from the Byrd rule. One of the reasons why I think any bill is better than no bill is seeing the Republicans right now fighting to preserve Medicare. Once universal coverage is established they're never going to be able to get rid of it.
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  #19  
Old 03-07-2010, 12:45 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Reconcilation

Today's NYT has a very nice graphic on the history of the reconciliation process. Accompanying text, in which the above is linked in the sidebar, here.
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  #20  
Old 03-10-2010, 08:13 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Hope for HCR?

The state-based single payer strategy

Quote:
"Quite frankly," Sen. Bernie Sanders said today, "we don't have the votes for single payer." That's not much of a surprise, but Sanders did outline another strategy for single payer that some liberals might want to think about. "Right now," he explained, "we have language in the bill that says that states that want to go forward with single payer can do that." He's talking about the Waiver for State Innovation, which allows states to go their own way if they have a plan that will achieve the goals of the bill at a lower cost. You could imagine a state -- say, California, where the legislature has passed single-payer bills before only to see them vetoed by the governor -- using that provision to implement a single-payer system.

Sanders thought this the best strategy going forward. "I believe the way we move to single payer in this country is to let one state like California go first," he said. And before some of my conservative readers decide this is a liberal trapdoor in the middle of the bill, the provision could be used to develop a much more conservative approach to universal health care. In fact, it's a legislative expression of the GOP's third plank for health-care reform: "Give states the tools to create their own innovative reforms that lower health-care costs."

The health-care reform bill will create a basic, near-universal system across the country. If individual states think they can do better, they're welcome to try. And if they succeed, you could imagine those reforms spreading quickly to other states, too.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...e_payer_s.html
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  #21  
Old 03-11-2010, 04:07 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Despite more than a year of non-stop FUD from the Republicans ...

... "Commies, Nancies Seeing Momentum."
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  #22  
Old 03-11-2010, 11:12 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Despite more than a year of non-stop FUD from the Republicans ...

Best comment:
Quote:
Troubledog says at 3:52 pm, March 11th, 2010
This is simply a conspiracy to make the graph data look like a Jesus fish.
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  #23  
Old 03-12-2010, 12:56 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Despite more than a year of non-stop FUD from the Republicans ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Best comment:
ROFL!
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  #24  
Old 03-16-2010, 11:01 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Oh firebaggers

Jane Hamsher asked her readers to raise money for Dennis Kucinich because he was working to kill HCR. Today he came out for it. So she wants people to ask for their money back. Oh, firebaggers!
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  #25  
Old 03-16-2010, 11:39 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Oh firebaggers

Quote:
Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
Jane Hamsher asked her readers to raise money for Dennis Kucinich because he was working to kill HCR. Today he came out for it. So she wants people to ask for their money back. Oh, firebaggers!
She's been on a tear lately. Did you hear about this?

(Follow-up from Weigel here, more from Balloon Juice here, if not.)

P.S. I just followed your link and oddly enough, Jane still has the link to donate to Kucinich up on that post. The contributions appear to have gone up by $4000 since she posted. Hee hee!

I really can't believe she's using the term "union theggery," though. Sounds like she's spent just a little bit too much time trying to make common cause with the teabaggers.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 03-16-2010 at 11:43 PM..
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  #26  
Old 03-17-2010, 03:25 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Oh firebaggers

Quote:
Jane Hamsher asked her readers to raise money for Dennis Kucinich because he was working to kill HCR. Today he came out for it.
Hasn't come out for it yet. He has a press conference scheduled for 10 a.m today, 3/17.

Since, unlike 90% of the Democratic Congressional Delegation, Dennis is not a lying, opportunistic hypocrite, I expect him to say something honest and sensible.

I'm sure a few "progressives" here will be disappointed if he votes Yes on HCR, since you won't have a new Ralph Nader to blame for all that sucks in US politics.
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  #27  
Old 03-17-2010, 07:31 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Oh firebaggers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Hasn't come out for it yet. He has a press conference scheduled for 10 a.m today, 3/17.

Since, unlike 90% of the Democratic Congressional Delegation, Dennis is not a lying, opportunistic hypocrite, I expect him to say something honest and sensible.

I'm sure a few "progressives" here will be disappointed if he votes Yes on HCR, since you won't have a new Ralph Nader to blame for all that sucks in US politics.
It seems like some people are committed to maintaining the vision of a much better future alive, keep pushing and reminding others what that ultimate goal is. However, in the meantime, people live, suffer and die while waiting. So it turns out, that there are others who have chosen to make sure that the conditions under which those people live while they wait, aren't as miserable as they would be if nothing was done.

Let's respect each role and not make the mistake of sabotaging each other, which would in turn cause even more unnecessary suffering. I think.
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  #28  
Old 03-17-2010, 08:30 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Oh firebaggers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
It seems like some people are committed to maintaining the vision of a much better future alive, keep pushing and reminding others what that ultimate goal is. However, in the meantime, people live, suffer and die while waiting. So it turns out, that there are others who have chosen to make sure that the conditions under which those people live while they wait, aren't as miserable as they would be if nothing was done.

Let's respect each role and not make the mistake of sabotaging each other, which would in turn cause even more unnecessary suffering. I think.
TBogg agrees with you.

(Me, too.)
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  #29  
Old 03-17-2010, 03:26 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Kucinich

Quote:
It seems like some people are committed to maintaining the vision of a much better future alive, keep pushing and reminding others what that ultimate goal is. However, in the meantime, people live, suffer and die while waiting. So it turns out, that there are others who have chosen to make sure that the conditions under which those people live while they wait, aren't as miserable as they would be if nothing was done.
Dennis Kucinich supported Obama's HCR for all the right reasons (as stated today at his press conference): 1) It's better than nothing; 2) Opposing it puts the whole Obama administration at risk of massive failure:
Quote:
“We have to be very careful that the potential of President Obama’s presidency not be destroyed by this debate.’’

Mr. Kucinich said he would vote for the Senate bill even though he believed it was seriously flawed.

“Something is better than nothing — that’s what I keep hearing from my constituents,’’ Mr. Kucinich said.
This is basically the position that everyone on the progressive left has held since Obama floated his plan during the campaign. Nevertheless, we have been vilified and ridiculed by centrists and moderates in the party (and on this board).

It's been crystal clear all along that if the bill failed it would be the fault of Republicans, Blue Dog Democrats, anti-immigrant xenophobes and anti-abortion Catholics and fundie Protestants. Thus, it's been astonishing to watch visionaries and honest politicians like Kucinich get scapegoated.
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  #30  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:13 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

I applaud the hardcore progressives for trying to use their power to get a better bill but at the end of the day I think many of them don't want to face up to the reality of what failure could mean (a failure in which they would be just as complicit as the GOP). MY put's it nicely:

Quote:
Compared to the health care system I would like to see, this bill doesn’t cover enough people, doesn’t do enough to control costs, doesn’t do enough to emphasize prevention and public health, and is too soft on the health care industry. But relative to the status quo, this bill covers a lot of people, helps to control costs, emphasizing prevention and public health, and reigns in the health care industry. The reasons to be disappointed with this bill are all reasons to be disappointed with the status quo, and the disappointing nature of the status quo is a reason to be enthusiastic about this bill. What’s more, if the bill passes you can pass more bills in the future! If it fails, politicians won’t want to touch health care again for decades.
The firebaggers choose to jeopardize HCR's chances (for noble intentions) but can't seem to handle it when critics correctly note the potentially disastrous results of that choice.

Last edited by uncle ebeneezer; 03-17-2010 at 04:47 PM.. Reason: better word choice
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  #31  
Old 03-17-2010, 06:03 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Dennis Kucinich supported Obama's HCR for all the right reasons (as stated today at his press conference): 1) It's better than nothing; 2) Opposing it puts the whole Obama administration at risk of massive failure:


This is basically the position that everyone on the progressive left has held since Obama floated his plan during the campaign. Nevertheless, we have been vilified and ridiculed by centrists and moderates in the party (and on this board).

It's been crystal clear all along that if the bill failed it would be the fault of Republicans, Blue Dog Democrats, anti-immigrant xenophobes and anti-abortion Catholics and fundie Protestants. Thus, it's been astonishing to watch visionaries and honest politicians like Kucinich get scapegoated.
I was very happy to hear about his decision.
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  #32  
Old 03-17-2010, 06:08 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
I was very happy to hear about his decision.
I was very happy to hear about the Catholic nuns as well. Although I never thought that sentence could possibly come out of my mouth...
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  #33  
Old 03-17-2010, 06:11 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

Me too. Never though I'd say it but: Hooray nuns!!
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  #34  
Old 03-17-2010, 06:13 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Me too. Never though I'd say it but: Hooray nuns!!
Yes indeed!

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Old 03-18-2010, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: Kucinich

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Yes indeed!
HA!! Great photo (though she might be developing a bad habit) (sorry, couldn't resist that one)
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  #36  
Old 03-18-2010, 05:13 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

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Originally Posted by listener View Post
HA!! Great photo (though she might be developing a bad habit) ...
Nice.

Never apologize for a good pun.
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Old 03-17-2010, 06:39 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Dennis Kucinich supported Obama's HCR for all the right reasons (as stated today at his press conference): 1) It's better than nothing; 2) Opposing it puts the whole Obama administration at risk of massive failure:
....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BVb...ayer_embedded#


One of his reasons was entirely the wrong reason, treating health care as a civil "right" or any kind of right.

It is wrong to do so. The idea that people ought to have a "right" to have other people serve and take care of them seems bizarre to me. You are basically asking for a basic "Right" to have other people attend to you. Even if you think it is something we should do on general principle, the act of taking care of people is a courtesy, a gift, not something anyone is owed.

But I guess too many people have warped and confused civic frameworks they operate from. The irony is that seeing it that way does not preclude many of the same acts and policies people clamor for. Even if you do not consider say, education, as a basic human right, nothing prevents one from seeing it as a core service that ought to be provided by the society at large.

Last edited by JonIrenicus; 03-17-2010 at 06:48 PM..
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  #38  
Old 03-18-2010, 12:14 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

I agree that "right" doesn't seem like the ...right term. I think your core service analogy is right on themark. And I also think of HC as a gift. And I like giving gifts. And given the amount of wealth in this country I think healthcare is a gift that we should give to our fellow Americans.
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:31 PM
listener listener is offline
 
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Default Re: Kucinich

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BVb...ayer_embedded#


One of his reasons was entirely the wrong reason, treating health care as a civil "right" or any kind of right.

It is wrong to do so. The idea that people ought to have a "right" to have other people serve and take care of them seems bizarre to me. You are basically asking for a basic "Right" to have other people attend to you. Even if you think it is something we should do on general principle, the act of taking care of people is a courtesy, a gift, not something anyone is owed.

But I guess too many people have warped and confused civic frameworks they operate from. The irony is that seeing it that way does not preclude many of the same acts and policies people clamor for. Even if you do not consider say, education, as a basic human right, nothing prevents one from seeing it as a core service that ought to be provided by the society at large.
I think you've made a useful distinction, and one that I've not heard before. I am among those who think that health care, like education, is a "core service that ought to be provided by the society at large," yet I've always felt a vague discomfort with the framing of the healthcare debate as one between it being a "right" vs. a "responsibility." Thinking about it now, I guess it struck me as oversimplistic and glib. The way you framed it
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:32 PM
listener listener is offline
 
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Location: Amurka
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Default Re: Kucinich

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BVb...ayer_embedded#


One of his reasons was entirely the wrong reason, treating health care as a civil "right" or any kind of right.

It is wrong to do so. The idea that people ought to have a "right" to have other people serve and take care of them seems bizarre to me. You are basically asking for a basic "Right" to have other people attend to you. Even if you think it is something we should do on general principle, the act of taking care of people is a courtesy, a gift, not something anyone is owed.

But I guess too many people have warped and confused civic frameworks they operate from. The irony is that seeing it that way does not preclude many of the same acts and policies people clamor for. Even if you do not consider say, education, as a basic human right, nothing prevents one from seeing it as a core service that ought to be provided by the society at large.
I think you've made a useful distinction, and one that I've not heard made before. I am among those who think that health care, like education, is a "core service that ought to be provided by the society at large," yet I've always felt a vague discomfort with the framing of the healthcare debate as between it being a "right" vs. a "responsibility." Thinking about it now, I guess that dichotomy always struck me as oversimplistic and glib. It seems to me that the way you framed it allows for more honest debate and less retreating into our relative corners and shouting self-righteous platitudes at each other.
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Last edited by listener; 03-18-2010 at 02:38 PM.. Reason: C.E.S. (Compulsive Editing Syndrome)
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