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  #1  
Old 10-04-2008, 04:55 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

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  #2  
Old 10-04-2008, 05:24 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Good to see Armando back.

LOL: According to CNN, that wackjob Sarah Palin is on the campaign trail today accusing Obama of "paling around with terrorists."

Update: Wow. Armando's audio recording levels are set waaaay too high. Difficult to listen to.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 10-04-2008 at 05:38 PM..
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2008, 05:33 PM
Gravy Gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Armando please focus. The problem is that way, way, way too many homeowners that are getting foreclosed never intended on paying off their loans. Just go ask them a simple question: describe you plan to meet your contracted debt repayment obligations. You will get a lot of nervous giggles and shifting feet, but you won't hear very many coherent answers. And the problem has expanded to where you have many mortgage holders who can make their payments and are now current aredeciding to walkaway from the debt. It is not irrational in places that prices are down 30% or more and the borrower's equity was next to nothing. Not irrational, but immoral. Armando, I'll sign up to help homeowners who had a sudden illness, or some other truly unforeseeable setback. The problem is that that population is too small alter the credit situation in aggregate. Drive around Southern California and ask foreclosed homeowners and their plans were depressingly similar: the teaser loan period will coincide with 20% value appreciation and then I will either re-finance or sell. Stripped of sentiment, this was speculation, just as much as any home flipper that ever installed a marble countertop.
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2008, 06:29 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Armando please focus. The problem is that way, way, way too many homeowners that are getting foreclosed never intended on paying off their loans. Just go ask them a simple question: describe you plan to meet your contracted debt repayment obligations. You will get a lot of nervous giggles and shifting feet, but you won't hear very many coherent answers. And the problem has expanded to where you have many mortgage holders who can make their payments and are now current aredeciding to walkaway from the debt. It is not irrational in places that prices are down 30% or more and the borrower's equity was next to nothing. Not irrational, but immoral. Armando, I'll sign up to help homeowners who had a sudden illness, or some other truly unforeseeable setback. The problem is that that population is too small alter the credit situation in aggregate. Drive around Southern California and ask foreclosed homeowners and their plans were depressingly similar: the teaser loan period will coincide with 20% value appreciation and then I will either re-finance or sell. Stripped of sentiment, this was speculation, just as much as any home flipper that ever installed a marble countertop.
Yeah, the poor banks and brokers are generally blameless. It's the damn shifty consumers, plotting to suck up as much free real estate as possible, bamboozling the financial class with their wiles and sophistication that destroyed the market.

It's the lenders who have the data and experience to understand which deals are likely to be viable and which aren't. Consumers generally enter the process with disavantages as negotiators relative to the lenders - simply because most consumers have been through the process orders of magnitude less often than lenders. And as non-professionals, consumers are less likely to approach deals with a sufficient level of emotional detachment.

If you want to find a reason for the mess, look to the fact that the institution that closes a deal often sells the responsibility as an asset to someone else, "someone else" was holding insurance on the asset, and everyone was betting on values continuing to rise.

The idea that consumers are the primary culprits is pernicious nonsense.
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:08 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
The idea that consumers are the primary culprits is pernicious nonsense.
I agree with your post in assigning primary responsibility to the lenders and intermediaries who flagrantly deceived their customers. Whatever modest regulations were in place were ignored by these crooks.

However, there is a number, most likely very small, of people in the higher income bracket that used the opportunity of ARM to speculate on profiting with rapidly increasing home values. I live in an area where people have done that and bragged about it. But, again, this is most likely a small number of borrowers in relationship to the total, with relatively large loan dollar amount.

This kind of individual speculation is impossible to prevent while the irresponsible practice of the mortgage industry is preventable with tighter regulation.
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:16 PM
Eddie Eddie is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

As far as him saying, it cuts both ways, if Clinton and Obama were so close on ideology why fight about it....

I don't want to open up old wounds here, but for me and the Obama people I knew the reason to go Obama vs. Hillary was the Iraq War vote.

I really, really, don't want to get in the weeds about what Obama would have done if had a Senate seat or whatever. I wanted to punish that vote. Of the candidates available, that left me Obama, Kucinich, and Gravel.

Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but I want that to be how the Clinton 2008 tombstone reads. Sort of a kill one, warn one-thousand message to every other hot shit Senator who wants to run for president and thinks the key to doing is to be a bellicose warmonger.
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  #7  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:21 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
I agree with your post in assigning primary responsibility to the lenders and intermediaries who flagrantly deceived their customers. Whatever modest regulations were in place were ignored by these crooks.

However, there is a number, most likely very small, of people in the higher income bracket that used the opportunity of ARM to speculate on profiting with rapidly increasing home values. I live in an area where people have done that and bragged about it. But, again, this is most likely a small number of borrowers in relationship to the total, with relatively large loan dollar amount.

This kind of individual speculation is impossible to prevent while the irresponsible practice of the mortgage industry is preventable with tighter regulation.
I agree, no question. The issue I'm trying to highlight isn't whether there exists a class of consumers who bear some responsibility for the current state of things. Of course that's so. We're discussing a huge number of people.

But, assigning primary blame to consumers, because of the inevitable, nearly tautologous, fact that some of them do bear a degree of the responsibility - that is a clear distortion of reality, an inversion of the truth.
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  #8  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:31 PM
jstrummer jstrummer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

It's the lenders who have the data and experience to understand which deals are likely to be viable and which aren't. Consumers generally enter the process with disavantages as negotiators relative to the lenders - simply because most consumers have been through the process orders of magnitude less often than lenders. And as non-professionals, consumers are less likely to approach deals with a sufficient level of emotional detachment.

Oh nonsense. Yes, bankers deserve blame. But I was in Phoenix during the bubble, and I know tons of people who knew very well that this was a gamble. Bankers should pay, but so should the homeowners - speculators! - who thought they could flip a home before the adjustable rates kicked in.
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  #9  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:51 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I agree, no question. The issue I'm trying to highlight isn't whether there exists a class of consumers who bear some responsibility for the current state of things. Of course that's so. We're discussing a huge number of people.

But, assigning primary blame to consumers, because of the inevitable, nearly tautologous, fact that some of them do bear a degree of the responsibility - that is a clear distortion of reality, an inversion of the truth.
Yes, I see your point and agree. I can also see by reading other posts that identifying this issue can be misleading and some may generalize too quickly. The reality is that the solution doesn't lie in blaming individuals who anecdotally may have contributed to this mess. The root of the problem still resides in a deregulated industry where there were no safeguards and deception became the rule of the game.
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  #10  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:55 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstrummer View Post
It's the lenders who have the data and experience to understand which deals are likely to be viable and which aren't. Consumers generally enter the process with disavantages as negotiators relative to the lenders - simply because most consumers have been through the process orders of magnitude less often than lenders. And as non-professionals, consumers are less likely to approach deals with a sufficient level of emotional detachment.

Oh nonsense. Yes, bankers deserve blame. But I was in Phoenix during the bubble, and I know tons of people who knew very well that this was a gamble. Bankers should pay, but so should the homeowners - speculators! - who thought they could flip a home before the adjustable rates kicked in.
See my reply to Ocean.
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  #11  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:56 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Yes, I see your point and agree. I can also see by reading other posts that identifying this issue can be misleading and some may generalize too quickly. The reality is that the solution doesn't lie in blaming individuals who anecdotally may have contributed to this mess. The root of the problem still resides in a deregulated industry where there were no safeguards and deception became the rule of the game.
Yeah. Precisely.
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2008, 08:06 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Why is "criticizing ones own team" considered such a virtue? Andrew Sullivan even gives one of his "awards" for it. (No, even I don't know why I continue to read him.) More often than not, "criticizing ones own team" is merely a show of self aggrandizment. (Read: Lieberman, Joe.) Or, it's what spineless politicians with no real ideology do, and then cast it as a heroic act. (Read: Lieberman, Joe.)
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  #13  
Old 10-04-2008, 08:07 PM
John M John M is offline
 
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Default I have suspended suspending the suspension of the suspension of my campaign

Dear My Georgian Friends Armando (do you have a Green Card?) and Conn,

I'm back from all that economic bailout business and on to more important stuff, like preventing a traitor and a coward from becoming president of the greatest country in the history of the galaxy (Georgia is in second place).

HERE'S SOME STRAIGHT TALK: Joe Sixpack doesn't compute numbers bigger than the price of a dozen doughnuts, so forget about 700 million or trillion dollars or Euros or whatever.

Besides, the Democrat Party has stuffed the bill full of pork and earmarks. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

The fundamentals of the economy are sound. What's not sound is our national defense. The Dems. are running a guy who's palsy-walsys with the terrorists. His wife hates America, and he's a member of the Chicago mafia. He's never served in the Armed Forces, even though Negroes have been allowed since my days at Annapolis (even though we didn't have any).

B. Hussein Obama is waving the WHITE FLAG OF SURRENDER in Iraq.

It's a dangerous world, my friends. I'm thinking of putting Spain on the Axis of Evil list, along with the Castro Brothers down there in Communist Venezuela.

War is peace (unless you're chicken),
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I'm John M. and I approve this message
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  #14  
Old 10-04-2008, 08:28 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: I have suspended suspending the suspension of the suspension of my campaign

Quote:
Originally Posted by John M View Post

It's a dangerous world, my friends. I'm thinking of putting Spain on the Axis of Evil list, along with the Castro Brothers down there in Communist Venezuela.

War is peace (unless you're chicken),
Boy! You came back with a vengeance!

Here are my thoughts:

Be careful with Spain. Zapatero doesn't play games. And the rest of Europe is behind... Just don't piss them off.

The Castro brothers are in their final act. You may consider a helping hand in their transition.

What about Venezuela? Are you worried about a cozy relationship between Chavez and Putin?

And last a special request, please have Lady Governor Palin do some reading before she comes out to the civilized world. It is embarrassing...

Next time you threaten to disappear from BhTV I will not waste one of my tears like last time. Look at how you show your gratitude! Going against my culture! Shame on you, John M!

Forget about your war/peace nonsense! It's Peace!

Ocean
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  #15  
Old 10-04-2008, 09:24 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

More honest title for this diavlog, at least based on the first half: The Obama-Haters Whinefest.

I wonder how soon after the election TalkLeft and HotAir will merge?

One point of delight: It was great to hear these two trying to make something out of the Gwen Ifill non-issue before the debate happened.

What's your next imaginary thing to fret about, Conn and Armando? William Ayers as Secretary of State?
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  #16  
Old 10-04-2008, 09:26 PM
jmoe jmoe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Can someone explain to me how an intelligent person like Conn can be a "big fan" of Sarah Palin. If your only thinking politically, she obviously had value in energizing the base, but at a moment like this, how can you only think politically? She'd be a nonentity in an administration, but what if Mccain chokes on a pretzel, or dies of whatever disease would kill a 72 year old man? Is it not obvious to everyone that Sarah Palin doesn't know anything about anything and when she does seem to, she's just reciting, badly, what she was told to say by her handlers?
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  #17  
Old 10-04-2008, 09:45 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
... at least based on the first half ...
Second half was better, except for, as jmoe noted, that it's impossible to listen to anyone who thinks Sarah Palin is worth anything except as sop to the wingnut base of the GOP.

If the best the GOP can come up with in 2012 is Romney, Jindal, and Palin, it's going to be a long and welcome Democratic hegemony.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 10-04-2008 at 09:55 PM..
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  #18  
Old 10-04-2008, 10:08 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Second half was better, except for ...
... one other thing, as well.

It's hilarious to listen to these two complain about the media favoring Obama, as though the media were some unified entity. To the extent that some in the media favor Obama, I'd say three things:

First, some organizations or personnel are openly partisan; e.g., MSNBC. So what? They're hardly a match for Fox and AM radio.

Second, this just shows rational thinking. McCain, compounded by Palin, would be a disaster for this country.

Third, McCain owns a lot of the responsibility for turning off the media. He has blown all of the credibility he had as a "straight talker" who "puts country first." In between the lies the campaign puts out in ads and on the campaign trail, the refusal to deal with the press morphing into an outright war against them, and the succession of stunts McCain has pulled, is it any wonder that the media is finally starting to take an honest look at him?
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  #19  
Old 10-04-2008, 10:16 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

I think Rich Lowry has cleared this mystery up for the rest of us.
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  #20  
Old 10-04-2008, 10:16 PM
Ray Ray is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Palin and Reagan!

Ha!

Here's the difference: Reagan wanted to be President!

What a couple of jokers.
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  #21  
Old 10-04-2008, 11:10 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Yo Armando!

While it's always good policy not too feed the kidneystones, I can't help but point out that even in the unlikely event Obama loses, Democratic gains in the House and especially the Senate (where it's possible we'll have a veto-proof majority) are damn near assured. A President McCain would effectively neutered.

Keep whistling in the dark, man.
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Last edited by AemJeff; 10-04-2008 at 11:14 PM..
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2008, 11:24 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Yo Armando!

I guess I need to thank ks for the Slate link he provided. If I hadn't been tempted by his charming characterization of the article, I'd never have found this link. Yowza!
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  #23  
Old 10-05-2008, 02:41 AM
John M John M is offline
 
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Default Resuspending the suspended suspension

Dear My Georgian Friend Ocean,

You'll be pleased to know that I am once again suspending my campaign due to the national emergency posed by the unrepentant terrorist, Bill Ayers.

I challenge my communist opponent to denounce Ayers and suspend his own campaign till this Enemy of Freedom is captured and brought to justice.

Here's some straight talk: I will hunt Bill Ayers to the gates of Hell!

And I ask you, where is B. Hussein Obama during this time of national crisis? Yesterday, Obama may or may not have been videotaped smooching with Bill Ayers at an Elitist Sex Club in Chicago while watching movies of Reverend Wright urinating on Old Glory.

As far as I know, B. Hussein is not a post-op transvestite or an Islamofascist. But Obama must come clean.

It's 3 a.m. in America, Ocean. Who do you want answering the phone?
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  #24  
Old 10-05-2008, 09:45 AM
Gravy Gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post

The idea that consumers are the primary culprits is pernicious nonsense.
My interest is not whether consumersare the primary culprits, but whether we should dedicate tax resources to making their lives better by effectively paying a good part of their housing expenses. I'm on board for those with truly unexpected setbacks, but not for speculators. And again, stripped of sentiment, the reason foreclosures have spiked is that massive numbers of folks who speculated are being either forced to the wall or simply deciding to abandon their commitments. Sorry, but anyone who could only meet their financial obligations by a continued price escalation that absolutely no one in the world could guarantee was speculating. Speculating isn't a mortal sin, but when you need to take your lumps, you should just take them and not expect a handout.
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  #25  
Old 10-05-2008, 09:07 PM
Gravy Gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

[QUOTE=Ocean;93071]I agree with your post in assigning primary responsibility to the lenders and intermediaries who flagrantly deceived their customers. Whatever modest regulations were in place were ignored by these crooks.

However, there is a number, most likely very small, of people in the higher income bracket that used the opportunity of ARM to speculate on profiting with rapidly increasing home values. I live in an area where people have done that and bragged about it. But, again, this is most likely a small number of borrowers in relationship to the total, with relatively large loan dollar amount.
QUOTE]

Anyone who bought any asset with the expectation that asset value appreciation would make the transaction affordable or profitable was speculating. It would be best to lose the silly idea that some folks who just wanted to make a profit were speculating and others, who just wanted a house to live in, weren't. If both were counting on price escalation to allow them to make good their contracted debt, they both were speculating. Sure, the later sounds nobler than the former, but they are the same thing. Neither deserves much consideration from taxpayers. Like I originally mentioned, a great test to determine a speculator is an incoherent answer to the question of how the borrower intended to pay their contracted obligations.
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  #26  
Old 10-05-2008, 09:38 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

Jmoe, my guess would be that Conn has bought into the conservative credo, hook-line-&-sinker. The idea is that government is so unimportant (and inherently bad) that complete incompetence is their ideal in a candidate. They love to suggest that anyone can govern and their support of Palin would support that.

It also follows their long-held hatred of the elitist notion of expertise. Joe six-pack is just as qualified to make executive decisions as, you know, people with actual experience and poly-sci credentials. To admit that some people are better qualified to govern, would take the wind out of the sails of their underlying belief that government is a total waste and that the ideal government is run by as few people as possible.
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  #27  
Old 10-06-2008, 07:18 AM
Whatfur
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Default A couple things....

Lets start by making it clear that Ocean and Jeff are on the same PAGE PAGE Page page age g

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
I agree with your post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I agree, no question...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Yes, I see your point and agree...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
See my reply to Ocean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Yeah. Precisely.
I admit Ocean, I am now reading the first sentence of your posts.

Second, here's another link that covers much of what I was posting about yesterday:

Carol Platt Liebow including the statment:
In covering Obama, the press has adopted a ďdonít ask/donít tellĒ policy designed to boost the least-vetted, least-known candidate ever to seek the presidency. It isnít by accident that the media has denied all less-than-glowing stories about Obama the kind of consistent, sustained coverage that allows them to penetrate public consciousness.

Third, BJ!! Come on! You know Armando and Conn are sitting by their computers waiting for your suggestions on how they might do better next time. Give'em something. Other than that BJ, yeah McCain needs to stop the negativity...next thing you know they will be espousing derogatory stories about Obama's children or joking about his incestuous relationship with them.

Lastly, I figured I would leave you with a heart warming story.

Stay insulated.

Last edited by Whatfur; 10-06-2008 at 07:25 AM..
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  #28  
Old 10-08-2008, 03:37 AM
rgajria rgajria is offline
 
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Default Re: A couple things....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatfur View Post
McCain needs to stop the negativity...next thing you know they will be espousing derogatory stories about Obama's children or joking about his incestuous relationship with them.
Man! You revel swimming in the cesspool.
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  #29  
Old 10-08-2008, 05:53 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: A couple things....

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgajria View Post
Man! You revel swimming in the cesspool.
In his defense, I think he is actually losing it... he has claimed in the past that he worked for Halliburton, so maybe, unless the GOP takes office, he might be facing certain legal ramifications...
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  #30  
Old 10-08-2008, 06:48 PM
Lyle
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Default Re: The Week in Blog: Criticizing Your Own Team

William Ayers was a terrorist and he worked with Barack Obama... so yes, Barack Obama 'pal'd' around with a terrorist. Not to mention a radical, extremist left-winger.
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  #31  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:26 PM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: A couple things....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatfur View Post
Lets start by making it clear that Ocean and Jeff are on the same PAGE PAGE Page page age g







I admit Ocean, I am now reading the first sentence of your posts.

Second, here's another link that covers much of what I was posting about yesterday:

Carol Platt Liebow including the statment:
In covering Obama, the press has adopted a ďdonít ask/donít tellĒ policy designed to boost the least-vetted, least-known candidate ever to seek the presidency. It isnít by accident that the media has denied all less-than-glowing stories about Obama the kind of consistent, sustained coverage that allows them to penetrate public consciousness.

Third, BJ!! Come on! You know Armando and Conn are sitting by their computers waiting for your suggestions on how they might do better next time. Give'em something. Other than that BJ, yeah McCain needs to stop the negativity...next thing you know they will be espousing derogatory stories about Obama's children or joking about his incestuous relationship with them.

Lastly, I figured I would leave you with a heart warming story.

Stay insulated.
So angry. Kinda sad.
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