Go Back   Bloggingheads Community > Diavlog comments
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Notices

Diavlog comments Post comments about particular diavlogs here.
(Users cannot create new threads.)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:00 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
BhTV staff
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,936
Default Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:58 PM
graz graz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,162
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Yes, Eli we did like it. Thanks to Hans also. A follow up would be great.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-26-2011, 11:27 PM
opposable_crumbs opposable_crumbs is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 504
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

I usually bristle when Eli makes an appearance, but I agree, he did a fine job, despite granting someone like Bawer the seriousness he does not deserve. Eli previously has condemned antisemitic writings coming out of the Middle East as providing validation for extremists, maybe the work of Pam Geller et al will now be viewed in a similar light, rather than showcased on CNN.

The notion of a demographic threat that people like Steyn talk about (Norway is 2% Muslim) or talk about no-go ghettos is toxic and seriously overblown, much like the hysteria surrounding 'creeping Sharia' in the USA, as if Muslim immigration to the USA has suddenly ballooned or something.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-26-2011, 11:32 PM
opposable_crumbs opposable_crumbs is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 504
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Good job by both.

The response of the people of Norway has been both dignified and impressive.

The call by the PM for more democracy seems to have already being acted upon as registration for political parties has risen.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:46 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 1,364
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs View Post
The notion of a demographic threat that people like Steyn talk about (Norway is 2% Muslim) or talk about no-go ghettos is toxic and seriously overblown, much like the hysteria surrounding 'creeping Sharia' in the USA, as if Muslim immigration to the USA has suddenly ballooned or something.
In Norway. But not in France, or the Netherlands.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-27-2011, 05:37 AM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,606
Default Future home of Breivik?

was curious to see the worlds most "posh" prisons and found this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiZUvDMdnik



looks damn nice, they certainly won't kill him, so it seems he may stay in a place like that for the rest of his days, or maybe less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnY9K...eature=related




Definitely a pretty large culture difference. I think this is in part because they can afford to be that way. Low crime rates, essentially free money with the massive energy wealth of the nation. A nation of near pacifists, seems to work incredibly well and be a much nicer place, so long as you are dealing primarily with like minds.


Here is another video I found interesting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysJpG6clmn0#t=1m

skipped to a key section to get to the point, a lady recounts the gunman going empty for a moment, she mentions being with others. There was a gap in time, a lull in his killing spree. Her choice, and presumably the choice of others? to jump out of a window to safety.

I don't know the logistics, but assuming it was feasible, a more hostile response, perhaps a more.. American response, would have been to take that lull in his slaughter due to ammo constraints, and attack him.

They could have died, but they could also have prevented him from killing others. And looking at the video, that option did not even seem to be on the radar of that woman.


that old analogy calls again

a flock of sheep, a very peaceful place to be until they encounter a wolf, the sheeps reaction to the wolf will lead only to the slaughter of more sheep.


We can't all be that pacifistic. Someone needs to stand up to such men. Or maybe no one does, maybe that is a horrible impulse, spawned by destructive and malevolent neocon instincts. If so set me straight.


Last example for now, if Israel had the type of attitude Norwegians had in their neighborhood, I don't think there would be an Israel. But then I guess the leftist would say there would not be a Norway there in the first place. Maybe so, but they are there now, and the Norwegian model would not work so well in every place.

Last edited by JonIrenicus; 07-27-2011 at 05:44 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-27-2011, 08:02 AM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs View Post
The notion of a demographic threat that people like Steyn talk about (Norway is 2% Muslim)
Such a tiny minority, and yet five years after publishing the cartoons, and despite apologizing, the editor of the evangelical magazine still has to have security. Such a tiny minority, and yet responsible for 100% of the rapes in Oslo. And Norwegian leftists/intellectuals actually justify this sort of thing. Anthropologist Prof. Unni Wikan: "Norwegian women must take responsibility for the fact that Muslim men find their manner of dress provocative. And since these men believe women are responsible for rape, the women must adapt to the multicultural society around them."

Quick, start talking about the atrocities of the Roman Emperor Theodosius to divert attention from these facts.

Terrorism is only the symptom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs View Post
or talk about no-go ghettos is toxic and seriously overblown, much like the hysteria surrounding 'creeping Sharia' in the USA
And when a judge in New Jersey says that a man has the "right" to rape due to the fact that rape is normal in his Islamic culture (see the statistics above), that's not "Sharia". Sure, it was overturned, but I don't think we should be at the mercy of appeals courts. Obviously, there are some messed up judges out there. What if the judges of the appeals court were as messed up as the trial judge?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-27-2011, 08:08 AM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Norway is a country of very misguided people. There is nothing good or noble about rewarding the vilest of criminals (like this lunatic) with five star prisons. There is nothing good or noble about having a maximum sentence of 21 years for this monster. There is nothing good or noble about harboring a terrorist like Mullah Krekar, and there is nothing good about trying to ensure that such a notorious murderer does not get the death penalty. There is nothing good or noble about having "understanding" for rapists and child molesters, even though Islamic culture has no problem with rapists or child molesters (in fact, it's often the rape victims who get punished, like this 13-year-old girl who was stoned for the crime of being molested).

Leftist delusions lead to no good at all. I fear that Norway will take no action against either Islamists or lunatics like this butcher, before more bad things happen, and before more misguided but decent Norwegians get hurt.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-27-2011, 09:11 AM
Stapler Malone Stapler Malone is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 213
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
Norway is a country of very misguided people. There is nothing good or noble ...
You are truly a brave soul to stand up so boldly in an online message-board and self-righteously condescend to a whole nation for how it responds to a tragedy you saw on TV.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-27-2011, 10:31 AM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stapler Malone View Post
You are truly a brave soul to stand up so boldly in an online message-board and self-righteously condescend to a whole nation for how it responds to a tragedy you saw on TV.
Not true, what I criticized was already in effect before the mass murder took place.

Do you approve or disapprove of letting this miscreant go free within 21 years?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-27-2011, 11:12 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Exiled to South Jersey
Posts: 2,436
Default Re: Future home of Breivik?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
skipped to a key section to get to the point, a lady recounts the gunman going empty for a moment, she mentions being with others. There was a gap in time, a lull in his killing spree. Her choice, and presumably the choice of others? to jump out of a window to safety.

I don't know the logistics, but assuming it was feasible, a more hostile response, perhaps a more.. American response, would have been to take that lull in his slaughter due to ammo constraints, and attack him.

They could have died, but they could also have prevented him from killing others. And looking at the video, that option did not even seem to be on the radar of that woman.
Impressive, Jon. You are now blaming the unarmed victims of a terrorist attack for failing to stop him, a move which apparently Americans are more capable of than those pansy Europeans. But then I suppose you are the expert on these things, seeing as you watched a youtube video and then imagined that it would have been possible to subdue the gunman. I'm trying to come up with a way for you to be more crass and offensive, but it's just not coming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
Or maybe no one does, maybe that is a horrible impulse, spawned by destructive and malevolent neocon instincts. If so set me straight.
This isn't you being a neocon, this is you being an asshole. Would you say this to the face of the survivors of the shooting? To the relatives of those killed?

Last edited by Don Zeko; 07-27-2011 at 11:17 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-27-2011, 11:17 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Future home of Breivik?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Impressive, Jon. You are now blaming the unarmed victims of a terrorist attack for failing to stop him, a move which apparently Americans are more capable of than those pansy Europeans. But then I suppose you are the expert on these things, seeing as you watched a youtube video and then imagined that it would have been possible to subdue the gunman.



This isn't you being a neocon, this is you being an asshole. Would you say this to the face of the survivors of the shooting? To the relatives of those killed?
Are you questioning the manliness of a chickenhawk? How dare you? The fighting 101st will pound any keyboard into submission!
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-27-2011, 11:36 AM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: France, Earth
Posts: 1,165
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

The Norwegian interviewee said that he would probably spend the rest of his life in prison, so you seem to have superior knowledge of the Norwegian legal system to the interviewee.
__________________
ledocs
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-27-2011, 11:54 AM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: France, Earth
Posts: 1,165
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

I am embarrassed to be a broken record of criticism, but I was fairly perplexed by this interview. Journalist who knows little about Norway interviews obscure and young Norwegian policy intellectual of unknown and unidentified specialty. How is the listener supposed to situate the interviewee within the context of Norwegian politics and society, when no background information about him is provided? And the interviewee was reticent in the extreme, giving no help to the audience about his background, political positioning, expertise, or anything else. There was no discussion whatever of Norway's uniqueness, its recent political history, its oil money (a glancing reference to this was made), its recent economic history, its political and social mores.

And at one point, Lake says something in an aside that I found really peculiar, something about how America's great social mobility ("people make and lose fortunes in a lifetime") made comparisons with Norway difficult. But I thought recent research has revealed that social mobility in America is much overblown, that many countries in Europe have greater social mobility. This may not be true of Norway, I don't know, certainly Norway has much less dispersion of income than does the US.

The policy about not extraditing anyone who might be executed in his home country could have been explored more. How many other countries have this policy, for example?

I think that an interview with an at least somewhat cantankerous Norwegian political journalist, or with a somewhat cantankerous Norwegian historian of post-WWII Norway, by which I mean with someone who does not feel himself bound to every form of Norwegian political correctness, would have been much more revealing, especially if the focus is going to be on this fellow (Bruce B.) who seems to be alleging that there is something like a code of silence surrounding the implications of the recent influx of Muslims to Norway. I got no real sense of what the immigration problem in Norway is like, how much concern about it there is among Norwegians, according to polls or to anything else, e.g. in movies or television, and so on. Not enough context here, by any stretch.

Nice try, I guess, but no cigar.
__________________
ledocs

Last edited by ledocs; 07-27-2011 at 12:00 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-27-2011, 12:43 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
Such a tiny minority, and yet five years after publishing the cartoons, and despite apologizing, the editor of the evangelical magazine still has to have security. Such a tiny minority, and yet responsible for 100% of the rapes in Oslo.
"Note: statistics for "Assaults involving rape" does not include domestic- and date-rape."

And, of course, we know that domestic rape and date rape make up an infinitesimally small portion of rapes.

I wonder if there's any link to the actual statistics from some kind of reputable source that would bear this claim out, even with the truck-sized provisio noted above

You know, a site with actual stats, like, say, this:

http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/0...-03-20-en.html
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:03 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

I thought Eli did a good job in getting us a Norwegian intellectual's thoughtful response to the attack.

What bothered me was reflecting on how berserk the American center and right (i.e., people like Eli) went when anyone dared to utter a word about what America might have done in the world pre-2001 to make mass murderers like Bin Laden despise us, or what legitimate claims might be out there about US military bases in the Arab world, for example, independent of Bin Laden's. Now, however, when it is a right-wing lunatic who targets liberals, we are to condemn the attack unequivocally but also wonder if he had a point about immigration and integration or segregation of Europe, and we are to take great pains not to tarnish all anti-immigration groups with the charge of Islamophobia.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:03 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
The Norwegian interviewee said that he would probably spend the rest of his life in prison, so you seem to have superior knowledge of the Norwegian legal system to the interviewee.
Apparently, yes. One's geographical location does not guarantee one's knowledge about anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14311157

The maximum prison sentence for criminal offences in Norway is 21 years, or 30 years in cases of terrorism.

30 years is better than 21 years, but it's still nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:07 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
"Note: statistics for "Assaults involving rape" does not include domestic- and date-rape."

And, of course, we know that domestic rape and date rape make up an infinitesimally small portion of rapes.
Wrong! Most rapes are carried out by someone the victim knows, but that does not (necessarily) make it date-rape. As for domestic rape, that refers to marital rape. My best guess is that Muslims will be underrepresented in the former category and overrepresented in the latter.

But if you think that being responsible for 100% of "assaults involving rape" in Oslo makes the Islamic community looks good, then by all means, be my guest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
I wonder if there's any link to the actual statistics from some kind of reputable source that would bear this claim out
Norwegian public television is not good enough for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
You know, a site with actual stats, like, say, this:

http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/0...-03-20-en.html
That's for the whole of Norway, not Oslo, which we were discussing. Also, it lists them by 'citizenship', so any immigrant who has attained citizenship would be listed as 'Norwegian'.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:10 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I thought Eli did a good job in getting us a Norwegian intellectual's thoughtful response to the attack.

What bothered me was reflecting on how berserk the American center and right (i.e., people like Eli) went when anyone dared to utter a word about what America might have done in the world pre-2001 to make mass murderers like Bin Laden despise us, or what legitimate claims might be out there about US military bases in the Arab world, for example, independent of Bin Laden's. Now, however, when it is a right-wing lunatic who targets liberals, we are to condemn the attack unequivocally but also wonder if he had a point about immigration and integration or segregation of Europe, and we are to take great pains not to tarnish all anti-immigration groups with the charge of Islamophobia.
You do have a point. We should not strive to placate either of them. So what caused these attacks? The fact that these two people are scumbags.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:12 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Future home of Breivik?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Impressive, Jon. You are now blaming the unarmed victims of a terrorist attack for failing to stop him
I wondered about that myself, but I thought it was in bad taste to mention it. Maybe it's because they were kids.

By the way, I don't think Joneleth was saying that Americans would have stopped the killer. After all, the students at Virginia Tech also did not stop that particular psycho, even though he had to reload many times.

Last edited by apple; 07-27-2011 at 02:15 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:15 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,644
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
Apparently, yes. One's geographical location does not guarantee one's knowledge about anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14311157

The maximum prison sentence for criminal offences in Norway is 21 years, or 30 years in cases of terrorism.

30 years is better than 21 years, but it's still nothing.
he can still be held after that if he is considered a danger. The expectation is that this guy will be in jail for the rest of his life.
__________________
civil disobedience a problem? NO! Our problem is that people are OBEDIENT all over the world, in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war and cruelty. -HZ
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:18 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by popcorn_karate View Post
he can still be held after that if he is considered a danger. The expectation is that this guy will be in jail for the rest of his life.
That has to be renewed every five years, and the expectation is that this is not going to happen indefinitely.

Eventually, he will be freed, after killing 76 people, and he will have spent 100 days in a five star prison for every person he murdered (plus 24 extra days per person for every five year extension).
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:19 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
Wrong! Most rapes are carried out by someone the victim knows, but that does not (necessarily) make it date-rape. As for domestic rape, that refers to marital rape. My best guess is that Muslims will be underrepresented in the former category and overrepresented in the latter.
Well, bravo, you got the irony. Yes, most rapes are carried out by acquaintances in one way or another- neither you nor I know anything about what proportion of rapes in Norway are non-date and non-domestic (I would suspect this doesn't include just formally married couples given civil partnerships in Norway). In any case, that huge caveat already makes the "100% of rapes in Oslo" claim false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
Norwegian public television is not good enough for you?
It's strange to me that there's no way of independently verifying that claim in any other place available. So, no, a very brief segment of one person speaking on Norwegian public television isn't good enough for me, any more than any claim made on PBS but apparently completely unverifiable without reference to itself would be to any rational person.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:24 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Well, bravo, you got the irony. Yes, most rapes are carried out by acquaintances in one way or another- neither you nor I know anything about what proportion of rapes in Norway are non-date and non-domestic (I would suspect this doesn't include just formally married couples given civil partnerships in Norway). In any case, that huge caveat already makes the "100% of rapes in Norway" claim false.
I said 100% of the rapes in Oslo. I do not object to your re-formulation as 100% of the non-date and non-domestic rapes in Oslo. Maybe you think it makes the Muslims look better, but I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
It's strange to me that there's no way of independently verifying that claim in any other place available. So, no, a very brief segment of one person speaking on Norwegian public television isn't good enough for me, any more than any claim made on PBS but apparently completely unverifiable without reference to itself would be to any rational person.
The politically correct Norwegian public television cites a police report. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't doubt a similar article in the New York Times. Or maybe you would, when it's convenient.

Of course, you and I both know that you are only being skeptical because you don't like the result.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-27-2011, 03:06 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post

Of course, you and I both know that you are only being skeptical because you don't like the result.
Oh, sure. And if there was a comment made on German public television that Muslims are a net positive for German society, you wouldn't at all be interested in getting more confirmation of that?

Of course, I am going to be skeptical of anything you present about Muslims. You have demonstrated mythical levels of bias. I initially assumed it was true, but wanted information about the exact time frames covered, how new this was, etc. But I was unable to find anything other than a variety of fascist websites lauding this as evidence that dirty muslims are coming for the white women.

Added: I made the mistake of clicking on the channel of the guy who provided this clip. In addition to muslim rapists, I have thus far learned that women's rights will destroy Europe, God hates atheists, and the like. Check out your fellow anti-rape advocate:

http://www.youtube.com/user/blogspotKitmanTV

I finally tracked down the report, here. Hows your Norwegian?:


https://www.politi.no/vedlegg/lokale...dlegg_1309.pdf

A helpful internet denizen translated a relevant portion here; a post by ddt says that the categories of rape translated as domestic and date are broader than they are here, including rapes by anyone with whom the victim had a pre-existing relationship:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=7410989

"Gross generalisations about how Oslo's rapists are foreigners and predominantly muslim are both erroneous, inaccurate and unfortunate. Of the 152 known perpetrators who were reported in 2010, 3/4 have European citizenship, mainly Norwegian. Half have ethnic roots in Europe and again mainly in Norway. The remaining perpetrators had origins from various continents and countries. Besides Norway as the most common country of origin with 50 perpetrators, 9 were from Pakistan, 8 from Iraq and 7 from Lithuania, to mention the largest groupings. The ethnic profile of perpetrators varies within the differing crimes and types of rape, but the differences are so minute that it is the similarities that become apparent. For all types of rape except assault rapes European perpetrators are the majority, most of them Norwegian. The assault rapes, however, only covers 5 identified, unique perpetrators. They do have foreign origins, but 2 were very young (less than 18 years of age) and 2 were diagnosed with serious psychiatric conditions and can not be seen as representative of their ethnic culture."

Last edited by miceelf; 07-27-2011 at 03:31 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-27-2011, 03:47 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,606
Default Re: Future home of Breivik?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Impressive, Jon. You are now blaming the unarmed victims of a terrorist attack for failing to stop him, a move which apparently Americans are more capable of than those pansy Europeans. But then I suppose you are the expert on these things, seeing as you watched a youtube video and then imagined that it would have been possible to subdue the gunman. I'm trying to come up with a way for you to be more crass and offensive, but it's just not coming.



This isn't you being a neocon, this is you being an asshole. Would you say this to the face of the survivors of the shooting? To the relatives of those killed?
blaming?

uh no, I am not confused on these things, the only person I blame for the murders is the gunman. I am commenting on how people react to these incidents of human evil/violence. I mentioned incomplete knowledge, it could be that the gunman was far enough away that trying to intercept him would have been completely nonsensical. We don't know the logistics, but I still wonder out aloud, if people were in both intercept range, and escape range, what would they do? What should they do?

It's not a question of blame, I might have dove for the window as well if I was close enough, but if there was a chance to take him down earlier in that lull of slaughter, would that not have been a better reaction than to leave him unmolested to continue his killing spree?

Maybe the reactions would be no different in Norway vs the US with a rabid gunman on the loose. If so, then all this wondering aloud shatters to pieces. But I'm not sure the reactions would be the same on average. There seems to be a large cultural difference to how each society reacts to human evil.

Now in the case of the posh prisons, most criminals are not evil, in fact their system may be much better at rehabilitation for Norwegians. But that model, that system, seems ineffective when it encounters the harder cases.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-27-2011, 03:54 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,606
Default Re: Future home of Breivik?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
I wondered about that myself, but I thought it was in bad taste to mention it. Maybe it's because they were kids.

By the way, I don't think Joneleth was saying that Americans would have stopped the killer. After all, the students at Virginia Tech also did not stop that particular psycho, even though he had to reload many times.
That points to there being no difference in reactions to these types of attacks then (at least while the attack is occurring). Undercuts any sort of linkage I mentioned earlier, though I still think there is large difference in how each society reacts to criminality and violence.

edit:

clip of a recent movie that illustrates the different reaction types pretty well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO6qu5fQLHo


I need to break up a couple things though, what was shown in that clip, and would have been demonstrated with an assault on the gunman, are demonstrations of human courage, maybe the rarest of all good human traits.

Most people are lacking in that regard, whatever the society.



The longer term, more systematic response to assaults and attacks is a different thing. I confused those two. This last is where the greatest difference lies between a Norway and the US, I think. The courage gap is probably very similar, but who knows, no one studies that that I've heard of.

Last edited by JonIrenicus; 07-27-2011 at 04:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-27-2011, 04:28 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

I'm sure Norway has facilities for the criminally insane, where dangerous psychopaths can be held indefintely. Eli's objection was not that the penal system couldn't hold the perp but that having prisons that looked like college dorms rather than the super max hellholes of the US did not provide a) sufficient deterence to a would-be murderer/terrorist and b) sufficiently harsh (veangeful and sadistic?) punishment.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-27-2011, 06:31 PM
ohreally ohreally is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 666
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Eli's objection was not that the penal system couldn't hold the perp but that having prisons that looked like college dorms rather than the super max hellholes of the US did not provide a) sufficient deterence to a would-be murderer/terrorist and b) sufficiently harsh (veangeful and sadistic?) punishment.
Lake is not a sadist. His objection is based on the irrefutable fact that, had Breivik known that his prison stay would not include strawberry shakes at tea time, he would have never carried out his dastardly deed. It's the same logic of deterrence that argues for the death penalty for suicide bombers: the cowards are so scared of death that's sure to make them think twice.

Or perhaps I am wrong and Lake is a sadist.

Last edited by ohreally; 07-27-2011 at 06:35 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-27-2011, 06:49 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I'm sure Norway has facilities for the criminally insane, where dangerous psychopaths can be held indefintely. Eli's objection was not that the penal system couldn't hold the perp but that having prisons that looked like college dorms rather than the super max hellholes of the US did not provide a) sufficient deterence to a would-be murderer/terrorist and b) sufficiently harsh (veangeful and sadistic?) punishment.
Yes, Wonderment, wanting justice for someone who murders 76 people is "vengeful and sadistic". How is life up there on Mars?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-27-2011, 06:54 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Oh, sure. And if there was a comment made on German public television that Muslims are a net positive for German society, you wouldn't at all be interested in getting more confirmation of that?
Net positive is a value judgment, not a factual statement. German TV might claim that Muslims are a net positive for the German economy, but that does not detract from the fact that there are other than economic aspects to their presence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Of course, I am going to be skeptical of anything you present about Muslims. You have demonstrated mythical levels of bias.
You apparently think that I have control over Norwegian public television. Don't worry, that is not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Added: I made the mistake of clicking on the channel of the guy who provided this clip. In addition to muslim rapists, I have thus far learned that women's rights will destroy Europe, God hates atheists, and the like. Check out your fellow anti-rape advocate:
That's not really relevant to the point, as he is not the source, Norwegian public television is (and ultimately, the police of Oslo).

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
They do have foreign origins, but 2 were very young (less than 18 years of age) and 2 were diagnosed with serious psychiatric conditions and can not be seen as representative of their ethnic culture."
So the other three can be seen as representative of their ethnic culture? Interesting. Also, the fact that marrying family members is rather common in Islamic cultures, leads to a higher incidence of mental illness. Not claiming that this is necessarily the cause of the mental illness of these two individuals, just noting.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-27-2011, 06:59 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Lake is not a sadist. His objection is based on the irrefutable fact that, had Breivik known that his prison stay would not include strawberry shakes at tea time, he would have never carried out his dastardly deed. It's the same logic of deterrence that argues for the death penalty for suicide bombers: the cowards are so scared of death that's sure to make them think twice. Or perhaps I am wrong and Lake is a sadist.
Please don't personalize this, or if you must, don't drag me into it. I am not suggesting Eli is a sadist. I like Eli and appreciate his reporting and insights.

I believe, however, that a criminal justice system based on revenge and retribution rather than compassion and rehabilitation does lead us to celebrate cruelty, The American penal system inflicts excruciating unnecessary pain on prisoners, especially in maximum security prisons and in "segregated" units (isolation). Other countries, like Norway, are far less brutal in this regard.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-27-2011, 07:07 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I believe, however, that a criminal justice system based on revenge and retribution rather than compassion and rehabilitation does lead us to celebrate cruelty,
I believe in a criminal justice system based on compassion and rehabilitation.

For victims and their family members.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
The American penal system inflicts excruciating unnecessary pain on prisoners, especially in maximum security prisons and in "segregated" units (isolation). Other countries, like Norway, are far less brutal in this regard.
Do you approve or disapprove of letting this monster go free after 21 or 30 years - the maximum penalties under Norwegian law?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-27-2011, 07:16 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Do you approve or disapprove of letting this monster go free after 21 or 30 years - the maximum penalties under Norwegian law?
He's not a monster.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-27-2011, 07:17 PM
ohreally ohreally is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 666
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
Norway is a country of very misguided people... I fear that Norway will take no action against either Islamists or lunatics like this butcher, before more bad things happen, and before more misguided but decent Norwegians get hurt.
How cute is that! Our little racist chihuahua yapping about the misguided wisdom of his "decent" Nordic friends. Isn't that touching or what?

Hey, do you get a hasbara paycheck for this crap, too, or do you do compassion for misguided souls on your free time?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-27-2011, 07:25 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohreally View Post
How cute is that! Our little racist
Poor guy, you must not know what racism is.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-27-2011, 07:26 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
He's not a monster.
Are we talking about the same person? I meant the right-wing extremist who murdered 76 people in cold blood, many of them children.

Anyway, do you approve or disapprove of letting this man out in 21 or 30 years?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-27-2011, 08:00 PM
dieter dieter is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 237
Default That's about as cantankerous as Scandinavians seem to get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
I am embarrassed to be a broken record of criticism, but I was fairly perplexed by this interview. Journalist who knows little about Norway interviews obscure and young Norwegian policy intellectual of unknown and unidentified specialty. How is the listener supposed to situate the interviewee within the context of Norwegian politics and society, when no background information about him is provided? And the interviewee was reticent in the extreme, giving no help to the audience about his background, political positioning, expertise, or anything else. There was no discussion whatever of Norway's uniqueness, its recent political history, its oil money (a glancing reference to this was made), its recent economic history, its political and social mores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
I think that an interview with an at least somewhat cantankerous Norwegian political journalist, or with a somewhat cantankerous Norwegian historian of post-WWII Norway, by which I mean with someone who does not feel himself bound to every form of Norwegian political correctness, would have been much more revealing, especially if the focus is going to be on this fellow (Bruce B.) who seems to be alleging that there is something like a code of silence surrounding the implications of the recent influx of Muslims to Norway. I got no real sense of what the immigration problem in Norway is like, how much concern about it there is among Norwegians, according to polls or to anything else, e.g. in movies or television, and so on. Not enough context here, by any stretch.
Scandinavians don't seem to get any more cantankerous than this. Even the internationally hyped Swedish Democrats seem bland and boring to me.

A Norwegian Opera singer was invited to speak on Austrian TV. She didn't reveal any impression of partisanship either. She kept emphasizing that Norway is a liberal and open society. The host kept egging her on to say something about the supposedly right wing populist progress party and take sides; to either blame them or be apolegetic. But she continued with her inclusivist and nondescript statements. She downplayed the role of party politics. Political partisanship is to her simply an act that is performed to hash out different ideas within a democratic society. Seems like politics is to Scandinavians much like a debate club with randomly assigned debate teams. Nothing to get worked up about.

It could be that this is merely the impression that Scandinavians want to give to outsiders. But it may well be that there is no there there.

Only in Sweden:
http://www.thelocal.se/27780/20100714/
Quote:
Passengers were trapped on a train in sweltering heat for nearly seven hours on Tuesday afternoon, for much of the time without food or water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
And at one point, Lake says something in an aside that I found really peculiar, something about how America's great social mobility ("people make and lose fortunes in a lifetime") made comparisons with Norway difficult. But I thought recent research has revealed that social mobility in America is much overblown, that many countries in Europe have greater social mobility. This may not be true of Norway, I don't know, certainly Norway has much less dispersion of income than does the US.
Not to mention his claim that magical american exceptionalism prevents groups from living among themselves, seperate from larger society and according to their own laws. The Amish apparently didn't get that memo. Well they've got no fax machines, so who could blame them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
The policy about not extraditing anyone who might be executed in his home country could have been explored more. How many other countries have this policy, for example?
This is fairly standard in the EU.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Einhorn
Your efforts of integration into French society leave much to be desired. How do you expect to be accepted by the French, if you don't agitate in any conceivable way against the extradition of criminals to the US? This is an essential component of Frenchness.

Last edited by dieter; 07-27-2011 at 08:05 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-27-2011, 08:04 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Anyway, do you approve or disapprove of letting this man out in 21 or 30 years?
Too simplistic a question. Norway, obviously, has to abide by the laws it currently has on the books.

A psychiatric commitment seems possible. That's one way to protect society beyond the sentencing limits (although there are problems if he is not in fact certifiably "insane").

I support 30-year max countries. Norway is not alone in this regard. A system in which 30 years = "life" provides society with huge incentives for rehabilitation of convicts.

The challenge for Norway and other countries is to prevent political violence, not to figure out stricter punishments or worry about what will happen if this particular individual is released in 30 years.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-27-2011, 09:06 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,202
Default Re: Worldwise: Live From Norway (Hans-Inge Lango & Eli Lake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I believe, however, that a criminal justice system based on revenge and retribution rather than compassion and rehabilitation does lead us to celebrate cruelty, The American penal system inflicts excruciating unnecessary pain on prisoners, especially in maximum security prisons and in "segregated" units (isolation). Other countries, like Norway, are far less brutal in this regard.
How dare you extend compassion to someone who rapes, tortures, and kills another persons child?

Who do you think you are? God?

If the victims want to extend compassion..then let them.
But the state is there to pursue justice for the victim, not compassion for the criminal.
You have no right to condemn any victims desire for retribution, or to impede their right to it.

Last edited by whburgess; 07-27-2011 at 09:10 PM..
Reply With Quote
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.