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Old 01-11-2011, 01:11 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,921
Default Re: With 'moderates' like these...

And when pundits on the left speak of the religious aspect of the conflict at all--other than to denounce the supposed Islamophobia of the right--it is mostly to lament or condemn ALL religions as a source of conflict, obscurantism, what have you. That's a problem, in my view.
I simply don't see this going on.

Moreover, I'm not sure how you are defining "the left," but it sometimes seems as if there's a desire (more rcocean than you, but I'm seeing it somewhat in this comment) to define the right (Republicans) as pro religion and left (by which is mean Dems) as anti religious and, of course, in the US both "sides" are predominantly religious, with some non religious sorts on both sides. Sure, there are differences, but the idea that the Dems are anti religious is flatly untrue.

To go beyond this, my question is what conflict are you talking about -- the war in Iraq? In Afghanistan? On "terror"? The fights in the US about building mosques or community centers? On immigration? That seems unclear.

And, once that's defined, what religious aspect do you think is being ignored and what to you think needs to be said? I don't think liberals have been interested in denying the religious intolerance in Muslim countries and (again) to the extent that the US hasn't made the persecution of Christians in Iraq and other places front and center it is not a liberal vs. conservative position, but related to the dangerous position we are in and not wanting to make things worse.

It's possible there is something here that's getting ignored, but you seem to think that we are unwilling to say things that I think are said. To a certain extent, however, I don't think picking a head to head battle between Islam and westernism helps those who want western values to prevail. People don't pick against their religions, but they are much more willing to be convinced that their religious values are consistent with western values, I think, something they won't do as easily if we agree with Osama bin Laden that that's impossible and that our goal is really to eradicate Islam. That's one reason I think people (not just liberals) are hesitant to go there.

people on the left managed to work themselves into a lather over the opposition to the Islamic center in New York, but raise nary a peep when Christians are slaughtered by a very tiny minority of extremists -- but who are supported or at least tolerated by a significantly larger slice of the population -- in countries that are supposedly our allies.
Did the conservatives who made a political issue out of the Islamic Center make an issue of the attacks on Christians (at least during the Bush admin, when they were also happening, at the many earlier times when the right in the US wanted to make common cause with Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, including repressive regimes?) No they did not, which is why I find it puzzling that you are trying to make this into a "the liberals apologize for Islamic atrocities" thing.

As for the Islamic Center, sure I got more upset about the efforts to politicize that and to prevent it from being built (and the related efforts against buildings in TN and so on). That's because it's my country and something I have a say in. Atrocities abroad I think are terrible, but also something that I have far less say in (I feel basically depressed but powerless) and which do not themselves violate American principles.

Moreover, as I said before, part of the problem in places like Pakistan and Iraq (and I feel particularly depressed about the Christians in Iraq, because I've been hearing about it for some time, since I have good friends who are of that background), is that we have gotten ourselves into a situation where we need to make common cause with people who aren't pure or are willing to deal with those who are extremists for their own political needs (or just because they don't care) and there's little we can do without risking more harm. And again, this is not because liberals wanted us to get more involved in these states because we loved them so.

These are not states (i.e., Egypt and Pakistan) over which we have no influence.
And they are not states that have no influence over us or where we are unthreatened by changes in power. I'm sure people can debate whether there's more we could do, but the idea that we don't because liberals are pro Islam (or anti Christian) and so don't care is meritless, especially as there's basically no change in our relevant policies since Bush. Yet I didn't hear these arguments against Bush.

Then I invite you to look at TwinSwords comments directed at me.
I'll go back and do that. Can't speak to it now.
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