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  #1  
Old 06-16-2010, 12:25 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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  #2  
Old 06-16-2010, 12:49 PM
otto otto is offline
 
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Default Mickey is back

Cincinnatus returns to his plough.
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  #3  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:09 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

In Bizarro world... Mickey was the winner, the Brown hordes were vanquished and teachers agree to work through their summer vacations and disband their union.

Last edited by graz; 06-16-2010 at 01:11 PM..
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  #4  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:21 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

A telling slip... that tells it all.
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  #5  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:34 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default CENSORSHIP!!!1!


(click to embiggen)
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  #6  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:36 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Subconscious motive.

Goat obsession.
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  #7  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:55 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
LOL! I just dingalinked the same thing. Indeed: Freudian slip of the week.
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  #8  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:56 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
LOL! I just dingalinked the same thing. Indeed: Freudian slip of the week.
[Added] Equally telling: it sailed right past Bob.
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  #9  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:06 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Tripartite

No.

Like this:



If you want to continue your goal of delivering shockers to the voters, I mean.
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  #10  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:10 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

ADVICE FOR MICKEY'S FUTURE:

Move to South Carolina and run for the Democratic Senate nomination there.
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  #11  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:10 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Subconscious motive.

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Originally Posted by graz View Post
op. cit.
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:13 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by Markos View Post
ADVICE FOR MICKEY'S FUTURE:

Move to South Carolina and run for the Democratic Senate nomination there.
Looks like this idea is gaining momentum!
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  #13  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:21 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Why does Mickey Kaus hate transparency?

For the record, search here for midlife crisis.

And see also, paying special attention to the "in reply to" link.
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  #14  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:29 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Faced with what he's faced with, Obama will probably need to do quite a bit of triangulating. If Liberal Left Democrats want him to get beyond triangulation, they will probably need to pull off a miracle in the mid-term election and then give him a 60+ Liberal Left majority in the Senate and something similar in the House in 2012.
Liberal Left Democrats ought not make the Imagined Ideal the enemy of the Best Possible Reality.
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  #15  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:39 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Taking credit for prediction (duh!)

June 8, 11:46 p.m. On Mickey declaring victory.
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  #16  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:42 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

I think the serious rifts and fissures that are continuing to grow between Obama and the left will be fascinating to observe with an outsiders perspective. Just for the sake of argument, please stipulate that these rifts exist; I realize not everyone is unhappy with Obama, and these stories may be overplayed, but I think it will be interesting as a window into the sociology of the liberal left in this country. What seems to be happening for the most part is that they're lashing out at Obama and laying most of the blame at his feet. This is very frustrating for those of us who had been saying for, oh, I don't know, 18 months that Barack Obama was essentially a snake oil salesman, and that he was selling people a bill of goods that, even if you agreed with much of the platform, would be impossible to deliver. So it would be nice to see a little self reflection on the left in the midst of this vitriol directed at Obama. I'm not holding my breath though.
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  #17  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:58 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
[...] This is very frustrating for those of us who had been saying for, oh, I don't know, 18 months that Barack Obama was essentially a snake oil salesman, and that he was selling people a bill of goods that, even if you agreed with much of the platform, would be impossible to deliver. So it would be nice to see a little self reflection on the left in the midst of this vitriol directed at Obama. I'm not holding my breath though.
And well you should not. There is a difference between a president being a little too {centrist | cautious | incrementalist | hawkish | consensus-building | call it what you will} for one's taste and being a "snake oil salesman." That difference is pretty close to night and day, matter of fact. You're entitled to call him what you like, but that doesn't mean others, especially on the left, think there's anything to this characterization beyond the usual wingnut hyperbole.

It is also true that some of us, at least, who remain in the "approval" column have never thought a president got handed a magic wand on Inauguration Day. Some of us were and continue to be realistic about the checks and balances, to coin a phrase, that exist in our system. Some of us are more inclined to be pissed at the Congress and/or certain Dems and "Independents" in the Congress than we are at the President when it comes to passing legislation.

And finally, some of us understood his campaign rhetoric to be a mixture of goals and ideals, on top of some achievable objectives, and are not going to turn away from him merely because we're not yet all riding sparkle ponies and singing "Kumbaya."

So, breathe, I guess is the point.

[Added] And see Markos's post for more along these lines.

[Added2] I should have said above that another thing at least some of us on Teh Left are more realistic about than you might grasp is in understanding what a mess Obama was faced with when he came into office. Due in large part to his predecessor, although not exclusively -- there are any number of structural and ongoing problems with both our political and economic systems, and a lot of these became more apparent only once the first crisis flared up, two months before Election Day.

So, at the end of the day, I still consider him far better than the thought of McCain/Palin, and I still can't imagine voting against him in 2012, given any even remotely plausible options.
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2010, 03:07 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Taking credit for prediction (duh!)

Another correct prediction, maybe, this time by Roger Ailes (scenario (d)).
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  #19  
Old 06-16-2010, 03:37 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: CENSORSHIP!!!1!

Or ... the new Bh.tv tagline?
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  #20  
Old 06-16-2010, 03:40 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
And well you should not. There is a difference between a president being a little too {centrist | cautious | incrementalist | hawkish | consensus-building | call it what you will} for one's taste and being a "snake oil salesman." That difference is pretty close to night and day, matter of fact. You're entitled to call him what you like, but that doesn't mean others, especially on the left, think there's anything to this characterization beyond the usual wingnut hyperbole.

It is also true that some of us, at least, who remain in the "approval" column have never thought a president got handed a magic wand on Inauguration Day. Some of us were and continue to be realistic about the checks and balances, to coin a phrase, that exist in our system. Some of us are more inclined to be pissed at the Congress and/or certain Dems and "Independents" in the Congress than we are at the President when it comes to passing legislation.

And finally, some of us understood his campaign rhetoric to be a mixture of goals and ideals, on top of some achievable objectives, and are not going to turn away from him merely because we're not yet all riding sparkle ponies and singing "Kumbaya."

So, breathe, I guess is the point.

[Added] And see Markos's post for more along these lines.

[Added2] I should have said above that another thing at least some of us on Teh Left are more realistic about than you might grasp is in understanding what a mess Obama was faced with when he came into office. Due in large part to his predecessor, although not exclusively -- there are any number of structural and ongoing problems with both our political and economic systems, and a lot of these became more apparent only once the first crisis flared up, two months before Election Day.

So, at the end of the day, I still consider him far better than the thought of McCain/Palin, and I still can't imagine voting against him in 2012, given any even remotely plausible options.
This is all well and good, and if you're going to latch onto the snake oil salesman phrase, then I'll just say I didn't put a lot of thought into that phrase. If you think that's overheated, then fine, I agree that there is a difference between Obama and the typical understanding of a snake oil salesman. I guess it boils down to whether or not you think Obama truly believed all his campaign rhetoric; the more you think he was just trying to elected, the more "snake oily" you probably think he is.

And of course you still think he's better than McCain/Palin, I'm guessing an overhwhelming majority of the people who voted for him agree with that statement. I wouldn't expect otherwise. But, it seems like in some cases, the rhetoric from the left directed at Obama doesn't square with that you're saying. They aren't simply calling him a centrist, there seems to be something deeper rooted in genuine anger. The disagreement would then become how prevalent you think this attitude is. I don't claim to know the answer, for the record.

And for those of you in the approval column who remain there out of a hardened realism regarding our political structures, well that's peachy keen. I don't really care about this group, to be honest, and that's not where the complaint was coming from. The annoyance comes from the feeling that the campaign was littered with people who were, to put it gently, pollyannish about Obama and his agenda/vision/capacity/etc...and now seemed to be shocked that we aren't riding ponies and singing kumbaya, or whatever it is you said. There seemed to be a certain savage satisfaction the left writ large took in pointing out every chance they got that they were vindicated in calling George Bush a moron/heartless bastard/incompetent person/warmonger/souless devourer of the children and the homeless and minorities...so I guess the right would simply like to enjoy some of that vindication now.
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  #21  
Old 06-16-2010, 03:42 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Taking credit for prediction (duh!)

Hmmm, what would appropriately honor our history as a symbol of Mickeyism analogously to how the Tea Party honors the Founding Fathers?

"Remember the Alamo" Or "Wake up America?"
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  #22  
Old 06-16-2010, 03:46 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Actually, let me summarize this critique in the form of a question, or a series of them. Do you agree that there is a disconnect between what Obama promised and what has been accomplished? If so, now we can apportion the blame, however childish this seems. So...does none of the blame fall with Obama, or his supporters? Is it entirely the fault of institutional constraints and the Ben Nelsons of the world?
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  #23  
Old 06-16-2010, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Kaus is way off base with his hypothetical about executing Nazi spies. How about we look at a situation that actually existed and is relevant: our treatment of people who were suspected of working for the communists. The Rosenberg trials et al weren't the pinnacle of fairness, but they were actual civilian trials, and Soviet communism was far more of a serious existential threat than radical Muslim extremism.

edit: unrelated, but I'm cracking up at the news that Angle was a Democrat during the height of the Reagan revolution and has advocated we "take Reid out" using "Second Amendment remedies"

Last edited by pampl; 06-16-2010 at 03:52 PM..
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  #24  
Old 06-16-2010, 03:57 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

You wanna elaborate on the claim that Muslim extremism pales in comparison to Soviet communism in terms of existential threats? I almost entirely disagree, but I'll wait to see what you have to say before responding.
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  #25  
Old 06-16-2010, 03:59 PM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Taking credit for prediction (duh!)

$40,000 is a particularly unimpressive amount of money to have raised in a California Senate race, especially for someone who talks a fair amount about the Hollywood parties he gets invited to and attends.

I'm slightly shocked that Bob has never heard of Dave van Ronk, while Mickey has. It must be those Hollywood parties. But they're about the same age. Bob, you're such a square. Of course, I can no longer remember the name of the band they mentioned that tours to various cities and plays to 2,000 people in each, Reptilian Ectoplasm or something.

I saw Christina Aguilara for the first time while watching a replay of Lakers-Celtics today. She sang the national anthem. My main reaction was that she looked ghoulish, really unattractive.
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:01 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Taking credit for prediction (duh!)

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My main reaction was that she looked ghoulish, really unattractive.
almost as bad as the celtics, eh?

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  #27  
Old 06-16-2010, 04:12 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
There seemed to be a certain savage satisfaction the left writ large took in pointing out every chance they got that they were vindicated in calling George Bush a moron/heartless bastard/incompetent person/warmonger/souless devourer of the children and the homeless and minorities...so I guess the right would simply like to enjoy some of that vindication now.
You are vindicated in saying, along with the "left writ large," that Obama has failed to live up to his promise. But nothing will ever vindicate people like you for thinking that Bush was a successful president--- unless you absorb a large dose of snake oil.
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  #28  
Old 06-16-2010, 04:18 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
This is all well and good, and if you're going to latch onto the snake oil salesman phrase, then I'll just say I didn't put a lot of thought into that phrase. If you think that's overheated, then fine, I agree that there is a difference between Obama and the typical understanding of a snake oil salesman.
Okay.

Quote:
I guess it boils down to whether or not you think Obama truly believed all his campaign rhetoric; the more you think he was just trying to elected, the more "snake oily" you probably think he is.
As I said earlier, I think he believed his rhetoric was composed of goals and ideals in addition to promises he realistically thought he could keep. But, sure, as a smart politician, I have no doubt he was also always conscious of the need to do what it takes to get elected. You can't govern if you don't win, after all. Where this crosses the line is for everyone to evaluate individually, I suppose, once he or she stipulates that it is not possible to be 100% straightforward or consistent and win a national election in the US.

Quote:
And of course you still think he's better than McCain/Palin, I'm guessing an overhwhelming majority of the people who voted for him agree with that statement. I wouldn't expect otherwise. But, it seems like in some cases, the rhetoric from the left directed at Obama doesn't square with that you're saying. They aren't simply calling him a centrist, there seems to be something deeper rooted in genuine anger.
Sure, that's true. The idealist left has a long history of forming circular firing squads, and of refusing to acknowledge that their (and my, mostly) policy views are not only not always shared by the majority, but can easily be driven, through FUD, and during a recession especially, into a dishearteningly small minority position.

And of course, our media environment being what it is, we tend to see and hear those most willing to scream the loudest. It's not much of a news story to report on someone like me -- kinda phlegmatic, reasonably satisfied, willing to give him four years before passing final judgment -- as it is to report on someone howling that he is JUST LIKE BUSH!!!1! No, worse!!!1!

On the other hand, we (who would like to think of ourselves as pragmatic) always need some push from the idealists, as does the president, so I am not entirely unhappy with them, especially once we get past the banal sound bites. Many of the good aspects about our society started as ideas from "the radical left."

Quote:
The disagreement would then become how prevalent you think this attitude is. I don't claim to know the answer, for the record.
I don't know for sure, either. I would say that it's not trivial, but it's not especially huge, either. I base the latter on two things: Obama's obvious judgment that pandering to his lefty base doesn't have to be high on his priority list right now, and the steadiness of his approval ratings among Democrats; e.g.:


(Above: second image from here)


Quote:
And for those of you in the approval column who remain there out of a hardened realism regarding our political structures, well that's peachy keen. I don't really care about this group, to be honest, and that's not where the complaint was coming from. The annoyance comes from the feeling that the campaign was littered with people who were, to put it gently, pollyannish about Obama and his agenda/vision/capacity/etc...and now seemed to be shocked that we aren't riding ponies and singing kumbaya, or whatever it is you said.
Well, sure. Two things to remember, though. First, every new president attracts some of these people; i.e., those who think this time, the savior has arrived. And second, Obama (the candidate) got an unusually large number of people interested in politics and out to vote for the first time in their lives. So, you're bound to see some expressions of disappointment. Be a miracle if you didn't.

Quote:
There seemed to be a certain savage satisfaction the left writ large took in pointing out every chance they got that they were vindicated in calling George Bush a moron/heartless bastard/incompetent person/warmonger/souless devourer of the children and the homeless and minorities...so I guess the right would simply like to enjoy some of that vindication now.
Well, as I have said many times before, putting "just like" between two things does not close the case that they are in fact identical. I grant that Bush provoked a lot of vitriol; on the other hand, I continue to be as sure as I am of anything that he deserved just about all of it. Guy was a terrible president, a lazy mofo, and a phony, and he screwed up royally in a number of significant areas. He was an embarrassment to me, as an American. Your views may differ, on whether Bush was all that bad, or whether Obama is not all that bad even if you disagree with his policy positions, but I can't even come close to accepting either of those positions as intellectually responsible.
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  #29  
Old 06-16-2010, 04:27 PM
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  #30  
Old 06-16-2010, 04:36 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
Actually, let me summarize this critique in the form of a question, or a series of them. Do you agree that there is a disconnect between what Obama promised and what has been accomplished?
No. As I said, I tend to put some of what was talked about during the campaign into the "not yet" category, some more of it into the "it would be nice" category, and some more of it into "this might have happened [sooner] had the economy not crashed."

The most I would say is this: (1) I sometimes wish Obama's priorities more closely aligned with mine, (2) I think he and his advisors worry too much about delivering for his base on some issues; e.g., gay rights and closing Gitmo, and (3) I would like him, from time to time, to be a little more aggressive in seeking what he wants.

I mean, "disconnect," like "snake oil salesman," connotes to me much more disparity between what was advertised and what the election winner delivers and tries to deliver. It's the easiest thing in the world to flip around some of his campaign sloganeering about how he wanted to end the partisan rancor or whatever, but it's really unimpressive. Anyone who thought any one person could actually do that was not being a grown-up.

Quote:
If so, now we can apportion the blame, however childish this seems. So...does none of the blame fall with Obama, or his supporters? Is it entirely the fault of institutional constraints and the Ben Nelsons of the world?
I wouldn't say none of the blame lies with Obama, since, at the very least, that would be tantamount to saying he's perfect and never makes mistakes. That seems unlikely. Also, as I noted above, he and I have never been in lockstep on the most important things to do, or how to do them, or which fights are worth picking.

I would say that more blame should be assigned to areas than is usual in our political discourse, though, yes. The ConservaDem senators deserve more, as you suggest. The Congressional Republicans deserve some for caring more about making Obama fail and using that to reacquire power, rather than trying to address problems in a mature fashion. The cold hard realities of our system -- the disproportionate clout of money and the small groups who can funnel it, especially -- deserve some.

And finally, the proverbial Amurrikin peepul deserve some. At least, those who believe either that a president can fix things instantly or that Obama must cater exclusively to their provincial preferences and if doesn't, he's just like Bush. Or Hitler. Or whomever.

[Added] I'm tempted to respond as well to your views about the Soviet-vs-radical Islam threat, and your "I was only 12" statement, but I'll let those others have a shot first.
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  #31  
Old 06-16-2010, 04:37 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
You are vindicated in saying, along with the "left writ large," that Obama has failed to live up to his promise. But nothing will ever vindicate people like you for thinking that Bush was a successful president--- unless you absorb a large dose of snake oil.
I'm not sure what "people like you" is supposed to mean, I had just turned 12 when George W. Bush was elected for the first time.
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  #32  
Old 06-16-2010, 04:41 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
You wanna elaborate on the claim that Muslim extremism pales in comparison to Soviet communism in terms of existential threats? I almost entirely disagree, but I'll wait to see what you have to say before responding.
Communists had one thousand times as many soldiers with ten thousand times as many guns. They had a vast military as well as an ideological commitment to overthrowing enemy governments from within vs. no meaningful military but an ideological preference for military conquest and disdain for internal dissent. Al Qaeda has no propaganda line like "workers of the world, unite" and it doesn't want one - all it wants is to recruit Sunni Muslims within a narrow range of belief to engage in acts of sabotage (as they see it) in preparation for another wave of Islamic conquest that won't ever actually happen.
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  #33  
Old 06-16-2010, 04:44 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
And well you should not. There is a difference between a president being a little too {centrist | cautious | incrementalist | hawkish | consensus-building | call it what you will} for one's taste and being a "snake oil salesman." That difference is pretty close to night and day, matter of fact. You're entitled to call him what you like, but that doesn't mean others, especially on the left, think there's anything to this characterization beyond the usual wingnut hyperbole.
on civil liberties it is completely accurate, otherwise i agree with you.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...-my-authoritah


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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
So, at the end of the day, I still consider him far better than the thought of McCain/Palin, and I still can't imagine voting against him in 2012, given any even remotely plausible options.
damn it all, i agree with that too.
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  #34  
Old 06-16-2010, 04:58 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by pampl View Post
Communists had one thousand times as many soldiers with ten thousand times as many guns. They had a vast military as well as an ideological commitment to overthrowing enemy governments from within vs. no meaningful military but an ideological preference for military conquest and disdain for internal dissent. Al Qaeda has no propaganda line like "workers of the world, unite" and it doesn't want one - all it wants is to recruit Sunni Muslims within a narrow range of belief to engage in acts of sabotage (as they see it) in preparation for another wave of Islamic conquest that won't ever actually happen.
You definitely make good points, and the more I think about it, the more I agree with you, I guess. But the one thing I'd say that's a bit of the fly in the ointment is the question of sustainability. People may have not realized it during the Cold War, but the Soviet project was pretty obviously unsustainable. I mean, the country couldn't produce bread by the end of the Cold War; despite having larger military means, propoganda, and all those things you mention, it was clearly all going to collapse once the Soviet Union collapsed. And the collapse of the Soviet Union was if not imminent always inevitable.

I see no such serious sustainability problems. The West, as chronicled by (I'm sure much reviled in these circles) Mark Steyn, Muslims have pretty serious demographic advantages over the west in the coming years. The population of Muslim countries is growing substantially, while the U.S is stagnant, and Western Europe is in some sort of slow motion death spiral. I realize the Muslim population and the enemy we're fighting and not the same thing, but you also can't entirely disentagle the two. While the feasiblity of achieving another global caliphate is obviously far fetched, I don't see an obvious endpoint for this ideology. I'd be interested to hear if you agree with any of this.
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:00 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by popcorn_karate View Post
on civil liberties it is completely accurate, otherwise i agree with you.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...-my-authoritah
I won't say Obama hasn't disappointed me in some of these areas, but it is reasonable to ask, at least in some of the particulars, how you would have had him do differently. For example, on closing Gitmo: not only did the GOP immediately go into full fearmongering mode at the thought of the detainees being moved to American prisons, but far worse, the Dems in Congress almost unanimously caved to that as well. As far as I can tell, the only way to get around the spinelessness of the Congressional Dems here would have been to issue an executive order. Now, maybe you can say, "Exactly! That's what he should have done!," but I would remind you that another of his campaign promises, as far as doing things differently from Bush, was to work within the system, and not to go all unitary president.

I'm less willing to make a case in Obama's defense on some of the other particulars, except to say that another of the sad realities of our system is that the president, despite being Commander-in-Chief, cannot make our entire military/intelligence apparatus immediately carry out his every wish. Therefore, I could imagine (would like to think that) Obama has made some of these decisions I don't care for out of a sense that he's got to give some to get some, that he's got to pick battles, that he can't afford to alienate the military completely if he hopes to get anything else accomplished, etc.

But, in the end, I agree with you: this is one of the more disappointing areas of his presidency for me, so far, too.

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So, at the end of the day, I still consider him far better than the thought of McCain/Palin, and I still can't imagine voting against him in 2012, given any even remotely plausible options.
damn it all, i agree with that too.
Yep. It does kind of suck, in some ways, doesn't it?
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  #36  
Old 06-16-2010, 05:19 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default On fundraising being the worst part

I've never had to raise funds for a campaign, but years ago while looking for a part time job, I went to interview and try out for a canvassing job.

WORST JOB EVER !!!!!!!!!!

It was for some sierra club environmental hoopla. But that was not the problem, I had to walk door to door, with massive hills in blistering heat, BEGGING people for money. That was the job.

It was so demeaning as a thing to do, to crawl on your knees and beg for donations. Every single person my partner and I talked to said No.

200 iterations of the word no is pretty bad, but even worse was asking in the first place.
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:46 PM
sptm sptm is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by pampl View Post
Kaus is way off base with his hypothetical about executing Nazi spies. How about we look at a situation that actually existed and is relevant: our treatment of people who were suspected of working for the communists. The Rosenberg trials et al weren't the pinnacle of fairness, but they were actual civilian trials, and Soviet communism was far more of a serious existential threat than radical Muslim extremism.
Another, even more pertinent counter-example to Mickey's argument about assassinating Nazi propagandists would be the fate of American poet Ezra Pound. Pound spread anti-American propaganda for Italy through several radio broadcasts and numerous newspaper pieces during World War II. As far as I know, the U.S. government never planned to assassinate him: he was captured and tried for treason. He was even spared charges in the end, being found incompetent for trial. Obama's decision to assassinate American citizens aiding enemy propaganda efforts thus does seem a departure from World War II policy, unless someone can come up with another example which contradicts the Pound one.
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:50 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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I'm not sure what "people like you" is supposed to mean, I had just turned 12 when George W. Bush was elected for the first time.
you mean in '04?
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:03 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
you mean in '04?
Not sure if this is veiled sarcasm or a serious question but...no, I meant in 00.
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:36 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Hold Your Head High (Robert Wright & Mickey Kaus)

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Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
Y I mean, the country couldn't produce bread by the end of the Cold War; despite having larger military means, propoganda, and all those things you mention, it was clearly all going to collapse once the Soviet Union collapsed. And the collapse of the Soviet Union was if not imminent always inevitable.

I see no such serious sustainability problems.
are you familiar with "hindsight is 20/20 vision"?

didn't think so.
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