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  #1  
Old 12-24-2008, 12:15 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default The Anglican Schism

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Old 12-24-2008, 01:02 AM
Abdicate Abdicate is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

I'm rather flattered that Bob Wright would guess I would find this pairing interesting. (As it happens, I don't--and yet I still feel flattered, oddly.)
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  #3  
Old 12-24-2008, 04:43 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Was it just me, or did Fr. Bill dismiss the NYT story for making too big a deal of the possible schism and for saying it was all about the gay bishop, and then spend the rest of the diavlog talking about how horrible the looming schism was, and how it was all to be blamed on gay-loving Americans?
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  #4  
Old 12-24-2008, 04:45 AM
a Duoist a Duoist is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

The fascinating unintended result of schism in religion is the INCREASE in total membership when adding up the new two halves. Like cell biology, religion grows as it divides. Schism is not a negative, except to those who feel their identity threatened by an opposing point of view.

The schism of the Episcopal Church is another grand sociological test of the limits to Inclusion, and also of the limits to toleration. Some reasonable limits on toleration and Inclusion will be found, in order to avoid cultural suicide, but the finding will come after a long process of unhappy sparring of diverse opinions.

The Episcopal schism reflects the society-wide soul-searching American culture is undergoing at the beginning of the 21C. Clearly we are all headed for greater Inclusion; but just as clearly, there have to be some limits to Inclusion from becoming culturally suicidal. As the Episcopalians agonizingly decide what are the limits, so will go the national fabric.

This is a great diavlog, full of portent of who we be as a people in the near decades ahead.
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  #5  
Old 12-24-2008, 09:16 AM
ogieogie ogieogie is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Once again this Christmas season, I fall to my knees to thank the Lord Almighty for making me an atheist and saving me from all this incomprehensible, hot-hearted gibberish.
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2008, 10:47 AM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

This was very odd. I'm not an atheist, but I'm always a bit mystified when I see what orthodox religion can do to the minds of obviously intelligent men. Stuff like this makes the entire proposition seem very small.
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2008, 04:16 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
This was very odd. I'm not an atheist, but I'm always a bit mystified when I see what orthodox religion can do to the minds of obviously intelligent men. Stuff like this makes the entire proposition seem very small.
Not so much orthodox religion as organized religion, I would say, although it is characteristic of organized religions that they have a fetish for preserving orthodoxy.

As with any other controlling group, those in charge of an organized religion rarely like to mess with the status quo.
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  #8  
Old 12-25-2008, 09:26 PM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
As with any other controlling group, those in charge of an organized religion rarely like to mess with the status quo.
Depends on what you mean by the status quo, I guess. I don't think the pro-life position in the USA (or in Europe generally) is the status quo; I don't think opposition to gay marriage, at least among USA and European elites (at least, intellectually and culturally significant people), is the status quo, though perhaps I'm wrong on that; I also don't think opposition to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars was the status quo at the time the opposition was offered (though perhaps opposition to the Iraq war was the status quo among European policy-makers). Also, there's the whole give-lots-of-money-to-the-poor thing that the Catholic Church, anyway, takes to be fairly significant and spends some energy on.

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  #9  
Old 12-25-2008, 09:32 PM
Palladio Palladio is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Hard to decide, as the young blogging head said in the first place, where there is so little authority (read: agreement) in such a church. Some believe they are Catholic. Others believe they are Protestant... How to know what they judge needs fixing. The point returned to over and again, and ignored by the reverend, was the authority of scripture, which is against what we call homosexuality. Even the Communion cannot agree on black and white scripture, what hope is there for it?
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  #10  
Old 12-26-2008, 06:52 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

I don't think I understand your comment, Palladio. Is it that if the Christian churches were God's church, then there'd be a lot more agreement? I don't think that follows--I tend to think the only viable contenders for being God's church are the Orthodox and Catholic churches, but I didn't understand your point, so I'll just wait for you to respond.
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  #11  
Old 12-26-2008, 07:42 AM
Palladio Palladio is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Thanks, BG.

My point is that if one has a dogmatic religion, being bound to it (which is what the word religion means) is necessarily a matter of beliefs. The Communion asserts it can have both dogma and freedom of thought, meaning the individual's opinion, and still be one. So wherever the individual departs from dogma there is no oneness--which of course is built into the nature of the Communion as being a 'broad church.' I must say I find a lot of fantasy in the reverend's position.

Of course, Catholicism and Orthodoxy--which are the same church, but for a disagreement over 2 words--were one. Christ started the Catholic Church, which now have eastern and western (or Roman) rites.

God bless!
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  #12  
Old 12-25-2008, 10:59 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

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Originally Posted by Bobby G View Post
Depends on what you mean by the status quo, I guess.
I meant more within the church, especially the hierarchy, than the larger world.

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Whoa. Cool!
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  #13  
Old 12-26-2008, 06:50 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Yeah, it's pretty wild. Attitudes to religion are decidedly pre-modern here. There seems to be something of a "the bigger a Buddha statue you buy, the more luck you will have" attitude. I guess there's something like that in Catholicism too--a baby will lead a better life if baptized than not baptized--but to a lesser extent.
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  #14  
Old 12-26-2008, 12:04 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby G View Post
Yeah, it's pretty wild. Attitudes to religion are decidedly pre-modern here. There seems to be something of a "the bigger a Buddha statue you buy, the more luck you will have" attitude. I guess there's something like that in Catholicism too--a baby will lead a better life if baptized than not baptized--but to a lesser extent.
Oh, I don't know. It seems to me that there's still plenty of ostentatiousness and conspicuous display as a claim of holier status among Westerners. The Catholics have ramped this down since the cathedral-building days, to be sure, but from my own experience, I can say confidently that they're still not without their urges to build bigger and better. People love to donate for a new stained glass window if they get a little brass plaque below it thanking them. And when you move to other sects -- think about megachurches for certain Protestants and big new buildings for Mormons, how the wealth of the pastor is sometimes flaunted, the notion that success in business means God is smiling on you, tithing, the fashion contests at Easter, crucifixes as bling, ... you get the point.
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  #15  
Old 12-26-2008, 01:25 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism (PS)

See also.
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  #16  
Old 12-26-2008, 04:18 PM
Palladio Palladio is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Oh, I don't know. It seems to me that there's still plenty of ostentatiousness and conspicuous display as a claim of holier status among Westerners. The Catholics have ramped this down since the cathedral-building days, to be sure, but from my own experience, I can say confidently that they're still not without their urges to build bigger and better. People love to donate for a new stained glass window if they get a little brass plaque below it thanking them. And when you move to other sects -- think about megachurches for certain Protestants and big new buildings for Mormons, how the wealth of the pastor is sometimes flaunted, the notion that success in business means God is smiling on you, tithing, the fashion contests at Easter, crucifixes as bling, ... you get the point.
Catholicism isn't a 'sect.' What 'urges' you say 'confidently' drive it you never name. The principles of sacred architecture are a field in themselves within the history of architecture. Do you honestly believe they are followed by the Catholic Church over the last, say, fifty years? Perhaps you could enlighten us with your knowledge based on your 'experience.'
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2008, 04:27 PM
Palladio Palladio is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladio View Post
Catholicism isn't a 'sect.' What 'urges' you say 'confidently' drive it you never name. The principles of sacred architecture are a field in themselves within the history of architecture. Do you honestly believe they are followed by the Catholic Church over the last, say, fifty years? Perhaps you could enlighten us with your knowledge based on your 'experience.'
Also, see:http://www.ktotv.com/cms/videos/fich...video_a_la_une

With French translation.
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  #18  
Old 12-26-2008, 10:34 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladio View Post
Catholicism isn't a 'sect.' What 'urges' you say 'confidently' drive it you never name. The principles of sacred architecture are a field in themselves within the history of architecture. Do you honestly believe they are followed by the Catholic Church over the last, say, fifty years? Perhaps you could enlighten us with your knowledge based on your 'experience.'
I was a Catholic for the first twenty or so years of my life. I saw plenty. The difference between the practice and the preaching concerning ostentatiousness and the pursuit of riches was one of the first things that drove me away.

However, I doubt I could enlighten you, since you appear to have read right past a clear example I gave in the paragraph you yourself quoted.
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  #19  
Old 12-27-2008, 07:04 AM
Palladio Palladio is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
I was a Catholic for the first twenty or so years of my life. I saw plenty. The difference between the practice and the preaching concerning ostentatiousness and the pursuit of riches was one of the first things that drove me away.

However, I doubt I could enlighten you, since you appear to have read right past a clear example I gave in the paragraph you yourself quoted.

Your reply is unpersuasive on the face of it, but even if it were that would still leave the experience of over a billion Catholics today to be considered.

Two facts: each church in each parish has its own independent finances. Your personal example has no significance even if true.

The largest private charity in the U. S. is Catholic Charities.
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  #20  
Old 12-27-2008, 09:54 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

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Originally Posted by Palladio View Post
[...]
Points taken, if not completely accepted.
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  #21  
Old 12-26-2008, 11:04 AM
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee Abu Noor Al-Irlandee is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Brendan and brucds, I think you guys are being unfair to religion here, although maybe your comment here about the "organized" nature being the problem, Brendan, shows that you get what's going on here.

There was little theology discussed in this diavlog, it was all about the politics of trying to keep people together despite their differences and trying to decide what's truly important to a group of people who share some things but not every thing in common.

This will occur whenever you have humans involved in doing anything and has very little to do with religion. This is what Nate said in another thread about wikipedia

Quote:
As far as the self-important, self-appointed busybodies; You have no idea how many of those types are on wikipedia, haha. The reems of procedure/policy/guidelines/etc. that is argued about on a daily basis would make a Senate sub-committee on environmental policy impatient. For what is perceived by most as such an "open" environment, there is a surprising amount of red tape and institutional structure that has developed. I could cite numerous examples I have been involved in personally, but it would bore people to tears, haha. Luckily, this is a relatively minor thing and I am glad I was able to cull some votes in favor of it.
So these type of sometimes tedious seemingly unavoidable discussions and maneuvering tell us nothing particularly about religion just something general about the nature of humans and humans in organized groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Not so much orthodox religion as organized religion, I would say, although it is characteristic of organized religions that they have a fetish for preserving orthodoxy.

As with any other controlling group, those in charge of an organized religion rarely like to mess with the status quo.
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  #22  
Old 12-26-2008, 12:05 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu Noor Al-Irlandee View Post
[...]
Quite right.
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  #23  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:34 AM
John R John R is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Great Diavlog! Admittedly, I am somewhat obsessed with the Episcopal Church. As a former student of Bill Franklin, I think he misses the global aspect of the current unpleasantness. The cause of the schism is not merely the assimilation of US culture war goals and tactics into the Church. I think that Anglicanism has had three great traditions within it, as Franklin taught me - High Church/Anglo-Catholic, Protestant/Evangelical, and Broad Church. The problem is that over the past two hundred years these three traditions have changed. The Evangelical tradition has become more fundamentalist. The Broad Church tradition has become dismissive of or even opposed to doctrine, favoring a theology based on experience, and the Anglo-Catholics have become even more Catholic in worship and ecclesiology. The tensions within Anglicanism between these traditions has grown, especially over the past 40 years or so. The Global South is primarily Evangelical, and has come to support the Western dissidents, who operate in territories where the Broad Church tradition has become dominant. The schism within American Anglicanism is due more to the global changes within the three traditions of Anglicanism than to the American culture wars.

The triggering event, the election of a gay Bishop, has brought these underlying divisions to a boiling point. This is a tragedy. It is bad for gays, bad for Episcopalians, and bad for the broader catholic Church. Even if a split is inevitable due to the increasing radicalization of the three traditions, an argument over a minority diminishes the Church.

As Luther's colleague, Philip Melanchthon, wrote, "In essentials unity, in non-essentials diversity, and in all things charity." Dr. Franklin is right to say that the Quadrilateral is the basis for Anglican unity. The leadership of the Episcopal Church is not heretical. Those who feel bound by conscience to depart the Episcopal Church should be allowed to do so without fear of legal reprisal. In these times, those in The Episcopal Church need charity more than anything else. Church schism is a disaster for all involved. Anger increases to unmanageable levels. The leadership of the Church is consumed with internal conflict. The end result is two Church bodies, both of which are radicalized by the struggle. I hope that the two sides in the Episcopal Church can stay true to what is best in the Anglican tradition.
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  #24  
Old 12-24-2008, 11:55 AM
thprop thprop is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

I watched this entire diavlog - shaking my head in awe and wonder. Why should we take xian claims seriously when there are so many different interpretations of xianity? Those who supposedly are in the same group of xians cannot get along with each other. More evidence that man created god.

A few points - and I am open to corrections:
The Church of England/Anglican/Episcopal church is not protestant - in the narrow sense of being a product of the Reformation. It arose from the English Reformation - something very different and all about governance and authority, not theology. Henry VIII wanted to get divorced and the pope said no - so he quit. I would put disagreements about gay bishops in the same category. So why so much concern about a schism over non-theological issues?

Protestant is often taken to mean not Roman Catholic (or Orthodox). Baptists say they are not Protestant - in the sense of being a product of the Reformation. Baptists (who did not come from the Anabaptists) maintain that they follow in the house church movement of earliest xianity.

Protestants (and Baptists but not Anglicans) follow solo fide - justification by faith alone. Roman Catholics and Anglicans go with the faith and works argument. I think to do Orthodox.

When you listen to all of this, it is such an obvious crock.
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  #25  
Old 12-24-2008, 04:20 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

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Originally Posted by thprop View Post
I watched this entire diavlog - shaking my head in awe and wonder. Why should we take xian claims seriously when there are so many different interpretations of xianity? Those who supposedly are in the same group of xians cannot get along with each other. More evidence that man created god.
The absurdity is compounded by the big deals made over truly minor differences.
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  #26  
Old 12-24-2008, 12:25 PM
Titstorm Titstorm is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

so these guys are saying it's ok to be religious? i always just assumed only the "lesser" people thought that.
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  #27  
Old 12-24-2008, 04:12 PM
metacodger metacodger is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Ah, the Great Mystery. Here are the best answers I've been able to find:

Henry VIII and the origin of the Anglican Church

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope-1...eature=related

Anglican Inquisition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNjcuZ-LiSY
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  #28  
Old 12-24-2008, 04:30 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

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Originally Posted by metacodger View Post
Ah, the Great Mystery. Here are the best answers I've been able to find:

Henry VIII and the origin of the Anglican Church

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope-1...eature=related

Anglican Inquisition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNjcuZ-LiSY
Great! And here's Izzard on some other gods.
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  #29  
Old 12-25-2008, 05:39 PM
Harry_O Harry_O is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Rev. Franklin seems open-minded and progressive, a representative of the best of the Anglican faith. We, the Raelians, commend Rev. Franklin's freedom of thought, and invite him and all free-thinking Episcopalians to become an active, participating member of the Raelian community. All faiths welcome.

Last edited by Harry_O; 12-25-2008 at 05:41 PM..
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  #30  
Old 12-27-2008, 03:50 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

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Originally Posted by Harry_O View Post
Rev. Franklin seems open-minded and progressive, a representative of the best of the Anglican faith. We, the Raelians, commend Rev. Franklin's freedom of thought, and invite him and all free-thinking Episcopalians to become an active, participating member of the Raelian community. All faiths welcome.
But Raelians are not active or participatory.
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  #31  
Old 12-25-2008, 09:01 PM
Palladio Palladio is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

To follow up on some earlier posts...

If the Communion is a communion, why is there no union, oneness in it? It is not one with Catholicism, it is not one with Orthodoxy, it is not one with Protestantism, it is, least of all, at one with itself. Enormous suspension of disbelief, for me as an outsider, must be exercised to imagine that what either man says obtains.

The reverend's references to Pope Benedict were bluff: the validity of orders within the Communion are null, to start with, so really all the Pope wants is the Communion to end its schism with the Church Christ, not Henry VIII, Edward VI, or Elizabeth I, started.

MERRY CHRISTMAS
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  #32  
Old 12-26-2008, 11:35 AM
geoffrobinson geoffrobinson is offline
 
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Default Re: The Anglican Schism

Note to William Franklin:

When Scripture condemns a behavior and then the Episcopal Church starts blessing a behavior, believers within your communion may start wondering about the spiritual health of those who bless what God condemns.
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