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  #1  
Old 07-22-2008, 10:02 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Obamamania: The World Tour

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  #2  
Old 07-22-2008, 10:51 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Press examines self and finds itself wanting

Except of course, Ana and Matthew are referring to the other press... Not themselves.
The same Ana - that fell for the McCain is my friend shtick. Why is she is off that bus? The love is still clear. But full disclosure: her politics are more aligned with Obama.
Matthew finding that McCain must go negative. As if he isn't already.
And let's try to paint Obama as Bush. Frikkin' "hacktastic" Matthew.
The snarky tone throughout could be read as jealousy for not getting the favored journalist spot on the trip.
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  #3  
Old 07-23-2008, 12:14 AM
sp3akthetruth sp3akthetruth is offline
 
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Default Re: Press examines self and finds itself wanting

Watching Ana gush over McCain is enough to drive me crazy. While claims her politics are more in line with Obama is almost laughable.
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  #4  
Old 07-22-2008, 10:57 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Iraq with out the surge

Lucianne gets it it about right.
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  #5  
Old 07-24-2008, 04:11 AM
Jeff Morgan Jeff Morgan is offline
 
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Default Re: Iraq with out the surge

I think the link kinda reveals the main weakness of that argument. The statement 'The surge worked' depends entirely on the assumption that a course of events without the surge would have lead to a worse situation.

That assumption is exactly what the link depicts, and of course there is no way of actually knowing; it's a matter of willful belief. From what I can tell, the logic is equivalent to 'Pulling out troops will lead to instability and increased violence', and 'The surge worked' has become a proxy argument for that.

The real argument I think is really in the statement 'Pulling out the troops will lead to instability and increased violence'. What's really at issue is pulling out the troops, and where the disagreement about what to do lies.

It's intellectually dishonest to claim to know what alternative history would have occurred. Be careful, the desire to crediting a causal relationship between the surge and changes that occured is exactly what screwed up McCain. Even the bit about the surge protecting the Sheik was wrong.
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2008, 11:09 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Iraq Status of Forces projectons

It does seem strange that the Iraqi status of forces projections don't agree with the 2010 deadline. (from memory) 2012 ground forces complete with significant intelligence and logistics support to make internal security possible but not sufficient air assets for over watch and support. 2015 sufficient air assets for over watch and support for internal security First two jet aircraft units come on line. 2018 Air force asset acquisition complete, ground forces able to provide independent internal security and assisted external security. 2020 Fully capable of sustaining both internal and external security. 2010 I don't think so!
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2008, 11:13 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Comprimise

Something like Kennedy-Johnson.
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2008, 11:31 PM
threep threep is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

I hate to derail another thread with this, but Mickey is getting SO HAMMERED right now.
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  #9  
Old 07-23-2008, 08:19 AM
ohcomeon ohcomeon is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Yup, I haven't checked Slate yet but he was probably up all night checking "sources" and chasing down "facts" to save the country from Edwards' loose morals.

Just checked - he was.
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2008, 11:38 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

"The media: It's always, ALWAYS about us."
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  #11  
Old 07-23-2008, 12:09 AM
newdome newdome is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

The Convergence of the Airheads
It is absolutely amazing to me how Ana Marie could have been hired by Time in the "serious position" she occupies in that organization. The few times I have had the opportunity to see or listen to her in these types of forum, I have a vague idea that I am in complete agreement with her politically. But I also have the nagging feeling of embarrassment that this is the best the bookers and producers in these forums can do to defend that ideological positions? It is quite sad really.
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  #12  
Old 07-23-2008, 12:21 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by newdome View Post
The Convergence of the Airheads
It is absolutely amazing to me how Ana Marie could have been hired by Time in the "serious position" she occupies in that organization. The few times I have had the opportunity to see or listen to her in these types of forum, I have a vague idea that I am in complete agreement with her politically. But I also have the nagging feeling of embarrassment that this is the best the bookers and producers in these forums can do to defend that ideological positions? It is quite sad really.
Relax... Your ideology is still safe, whatever it might be. She didn't attempt any explications. Her role is that of witty and pithy observer of the "process" or intersection of media and politics. Matthew is a straight up hack and Ana is on a privileged perch without any particular insight. It has to make you wonder why you consider it serious at all?
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  #13  
Old 07-23-2008, 12:28 AM
sp3akthetruth sp3akthetruth is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

graz, considered what serious? you mean Time Inc.? Because I had to stop watching this diavlog, which is rare for me. I wish they'd bring someone like Joe Klein on, or someone else from Time, because it feels as though Ana never leaves her office since she can remain so in tuned to the man on the street through her blog comments.
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  #14  
Old 07-23-2008, 12:40 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by sp3akthetruth View Post
graz, considered what serious? you mean Time Inc.? Because I had to stop watching this diavlog, which is rare for me. I wish they'd bring someone like Joe Klein on, or someone else from Time, because it feels as though Ana never leaves her office since she can remain so in tuned to the man on the street through her blog comments.
The comment was directed to newdome and the implication that anyone should take her seriously - leaving Time Inc. aside. Just let your ears do the thinking.

This synchs with an earlier thread that requested greater influence in booking and commenter requests. Again, another woman and yet it seems like it is the same woman (practically). See ohcomeon in the "lipstick libertarians" thread.
I wouldn't wish for you to waste your time, but it gets worse as this diavlog regresses forward. These two cocksure members of the punditocracy treat one of the Presidential candidates as an object of ridicule. Mind you, through no fault of his. But rather, because of the way that their
industry fluffs itself. Go figure.
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  #15  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:01 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

You have to hand it to Ana: She does nothing to conceal her contempt for Obama, and she makes no secret of her enormous emotional investment in McCain. It's clear she feels a very personal connection to him. And sympathy: she honestly looked depressed when ruminating on how unfair it all is. At least we know this much: She intends to invest all of her energy in helping him get elected.

Most interesting moment in the few minutes I watched: When Ana expressed utter dismay at the ignorance of the public that actually believes McCain would be a 3rd Bush term, when obviously it's Obama who is promising more of the same.

By the way, that was pure class how Ana left thousands of viewers sitting around waiting while she checked her phone, 3 times in the few minutes I watched.
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  #16  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:10 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
By the way, that was pure class how Ana left thousands of viewers sitting around waiting while she checked her phone, 3 times in the few minutes I watched.
We are legions, us viewers.

And... had to share that it was the dog groomer no less.
And further buried herself by wasting our time explaining that it was on mute but still, the vibration was distracting her.

Who's in charge of booking anyway?
Maybe it stands to reason that so-called adults that can do their day job and never get out of their pj's are always a bit suspect.
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  #17  
Old 07-23-2008, 02:01 AM
sp3akthetruth sp3akthetruth is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Most interesting moment in the few minutes I watched: When Ana expressed utter dismay at the ignorance of the public that actually believes McCain would be a 3rd Bush term, when obviously it's Obama who is promising more of the same.
And to think candidates are actually running on platforms. I'm curious how many of Obama's items overlap with Bush, the compassionate conservative. It's probably the tax cuts for the wealthy. It could be the unilateral neo-con foreign policy. Did you know McCain doesn't even have a foreign policy link on his site? Sure, McCain has a link on Iraq, but that sort of tells you where McCain's priorities lie.

We obviously know where Ana's lie, and that's with those mean BBQ ribs she eat at his vacation house.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a president again that everything wasn't handed to him? It makes me miss the days of Bill Clinton, when candidates worked their way up, instead of marrying into it or being birthed into the "right" family.
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  #18  
Old 07-23-2008, 02:50 AM
sleepyhead sleepyhead is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Gotta love this from Ana Marie Cox at Time today:

"McCain has often said he'd rather "lose an election than lose a war," but I don't think he thought he'd be on the winning side of a war and lose the election anyway."

So her politics are supposedly aligned with Obama, yet when she sees two candidates, one of whom opposed the biggest foreign policy disaster of her lifetime, and one of whom supported it, she buys into the rhetoric of the one who supported it by saying that he is on the "winning side of a war." Give me a break. She may claim that her political sympathies are with Obama, but her personal sympathies are apparent.

It's amazing to me how much McCain has succeeded in changing the media narrative from the big question of "Which candidate was an enthusiastic supporter of the biggest mistake in recent American history, which led to the deaths of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and strengthened the Iranian regime" to the smaller question of "Which candidate supported an escalation of troops from 130,000 to 150,000."
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  #19  
Old 07-23-2008, 03:57 PM
Chef Chef is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyhead View Post
Which candidate was an enthusiastic supporter of the biggest mistake in recent American history, which led to the deaths of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
Interesting.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. By which I assume you mean more than 200,000 violent deaths of Iraqi citizens. That's over twice the number quoted by iraqbodycount.

Is that a sure sign of "cocooning", to simply assume that everyone agrees with your numbers?
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  #20  
Old 07-23-2008, 04:15 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Interesting.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. By which I assume you mean more than 200,000 violent deaths of Iraqi citizens. That's over twice the number quoted by iraqbodycount.

Is that a sure sign of "cocooning", to simply assume that everyone agrees with your numbers?
If I referred to 100,001 as "hundreds of thousands" would I really be unduly exaggerating the actual sense of what I was trying to say? You're quibbling over a difference of less than order of magnitude, and drawing conclusions from pretty ambiguous language, no?
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  #21  
Old 07-23-2008, 04:16 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

All three major surveys referenced below indicate that the Iraq War lead to the death of at least 400,000 Iraqis, substantiating Sleepyhead's claim. They are conservative numbers, since they are from 06 and 07.

Source is the Wikipedia article on Iraq War casualties:

[QUOTE]Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003 (beginning with the 2003 invasion of Iraq and continuing with the ensuing 2003 occupation of Iraq coalition presence as well as the activities of the various armed groups operating in the country) have come in many forms, and the accuracy of the information available on different types of casualties varies greatly.

The table below summarizes the Iraq War casualty surveys.

Iraqi Health Ministry survey 151,000 violent deaths out of 400,000 excess deaths due to the war. ( June 2006)

Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths. (June 2006)

Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 violent deaths as a result of the conflict. (August 2007)
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  #22  
Old 07-23-2008, 06:32 PM
sleepyhead sleepyhead is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Interesting.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. By which I assume you mean more than 200,000 violent deaths of Iraqi citizens. That's over twice the number quoted by iraqbodycount.

Is that a sure sign of "cocooning", to simply assume that everyone agrees with your numbers?
First of all, I said that the invasion of Iraq "led to the deaths of...hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens." I intentionally did not say "violent deaths," and I intentionally said "Iraqi citizens," not "Iraqi civilians," so you shouldn't assume that I was only talking about violent deaths of civilians. In fact I was referring to the studies cited by Wonderment, which estimate "excess deaths" caused by the war.

As for the actual numbers, Iraq Body Count does great work, but they are very clear that their methodology includes only violent deaths, and only deaths that have been documented in reliable media sources. As they say on their website, "We have always been quite explicit that our own total is certain to be an underestimate of the true position, because of gaps in reporting or recording."

So there is no inconsistency between IBC's count of documented violent death of civilians, and estimates of total "excess deaths" that are more than twice as high, especially given the difficulty of documenting deaths in a large country at war where many areas of the country were inaccessible to the media or even to the Iraqi government officials for extended periods of time. The official Iraqi Health Ministry/WHO estimate of violent civilian Iraqi deaths through June 2006 was 151,000. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that at least 49,000 more Iraqis have died in the more than 2 years since then -- keep in mind that in June 2006, Iraq was just beginning to enter its most violent phase.

Is it "cocooning" for me to trust the estimates of actual studies over the vague denials of U.S. government officials? If so, then I plead guilty.

Last edited by sleepyhead; 07-23-2008 at 06:34 PM.. Reason: Edited to fix typo
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  #23  
Old 07-23-2008, 08:14 AM
ohcomeon ohcomeon is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by sp3akthetruth View Post
graz, considered what serious? you mean Time Inc.? Because I had to stop watching this diavlog, which is rare for me. I wish they'd bring someone like Joe Klein on, or someone else from Time, because it feels as though Ana never leaves her office since she can remain so in tuned to the man on the street through her blog comments.
To that point - This is what Joe Klein has to say about McCain's recent accusation that Obama would be fine with losing a war to win an election:

This is the ninth presidential campaign I've covered. I can't remember a more scurrilous statement by a major party candidate. It smacks of desperation. It renews questions about whether McCain has the right temperament for the presidency. How sad.
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  #24  
Old 07-23-2008, 02:11 AM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

what do rudy guliani and ana marie cox have in common? let's dingalink to find out:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/129...04:03&out=4:23
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  #25  
Old 07-23-2008, 04:09 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Ugh

I started off watching this diavlog with the lowest of expectations -- the Vice President of the Choate Glee Club talking to the McCain Fluffer in Chief? Come on. Even so, whatever faint hopes I still held were quickly dashed.

I suppose I should be happy that Ana Marie let fly her belief that Obama is just like Hitler only nine minutes in -- made it that much easier to click stop.

I don't know what's been going on this week -- did all the smart bloggers start their August vacations early?
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  #26  
Old 07-23-2008, 08:45 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Decent job AMC and MC - Two of the few willing to laugh at the hilarity of the Obama tap dance and his fawning apologists. You know you've got the left mad when they demand you be removed and replaced by Joe 'Stingray landing in Obama's boat' Klein.

And Ana Marie....please turn off your cel-phone before you start. Completely disrespectful not only to MC but also everyone watching. It was almost as bad as that pundit on Meet The Press who kept his phone on....what was his name??...oh yes, Joe Klein.

Very classy BJK - referring to AMC as McCain's oral service provider. Is this Kos or BhTV?
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  #27  
Old 07-23-2008, 09:05 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by felcher View Post
Very classy BJK ...
Spare me your faux outrage.

Given her posing as a journalist, her non-stop promotion of McCain, and her comparison of Obama to Hitler, she's lucky that's all I called her.
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  #28  
Old 07-23-2008, 10:28 PM
Exeus99 Exeus99 is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

As a chauvinist troll I don't have standing to comment on your use of a metaphor equating a woman with whom you disagree to someone who provides sexual services for money; it's good to know that insulting a woman in sexualized terms is permissible (for non-chauvinist trolls, anyway) so long as the woman in question really deserves it.
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  #29  
Old 07-23-2008, 11:30 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exeus99 View Post
As a chauvinist troll I don't have standing to comment on your use of a metaphor ...
Hard to see why you would start by acknowledging that I was using a metaphor and then make an argument based on taking the word literally.

Also, I don't know what you've been reading lately, but the word fluffer has come into common use to mean something less specific than its original meaning in the porn industry. This is especially so in the context of a so-called journalist writing about a favored politician. See, for example, the sixth definition here.

You should get out more. The sun might take some of the blue out of your nose.
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  #30  
Old 07-24-2008, 07:59 AM
Exeus99 Exeus99 is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Hold on, now I'm a blue-nosed chauvinist troll? An overly prudish misogynist bigot? I also like the justification that, hey, it's cool to use sexualized terms to denigrate a woman you don't like, since, you know, everyone's doin' it, man!

I will admit, though, that "The Blue Nosed Trolls" would be a good name for a polka band.
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  #31  
Old 07-24-2008, 08:46 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exeus99 View Post
Hold on, now I'm a blue-nosed chauvinist troll?
Seems a succinct way of characterizing some of your recent comments, yes.
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  #32  
Old 07-24-2008, 06:19 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Spare me your faux outrage.

Given her posing as a journalist, her non-stop promotion of McCain, and her comparison of Obama to Hitler, she's lucky that's all I called her.
No outrage here, just having a good laugh that someone who makes accusations against others of 'hurtful' comments could'nt come up with something less crude and offensive. Good thing lefties never compare Bush/Cheney to the nazis or you'd surely be making head-bobbing references all-round.

Wonder if Bob is still keeping a Althouse v BhTV score? I'm sure that was a 3-pointer.
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2008, 09:49 AM
Joel_Cairo Joel_Cairo is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

I love this part from AMC:

McCain's best shot is to have as many children as possible die in combat
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2008, 10:45 AM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel_Cairo View Post
Quite the link. She seemed quite enraptured at that point point. ( "like OMG did you see him ... " )

In a previous diavlog I commented that at some point she was channeling David Broder now she is trying to muscle in on Mickey's territory ( I'll vote for the guy but geez what a jerk... ) next she'll be bashing unions and hitting on ann coulter. Pinkerton at least joined the campaign he liked :-) Maybe this was really just an interview for a new blog at the Weekly Standard called the Coxfiles.

More seriously I think she is right on Pawlenty but geez I would love to hear EXACTLY why Powell won't be VP ?? Maybe the same reason the election is closer than expected ??

On another note I think that the coverage that our diavloggers were kvetching about has little to do with ideology and er everything to do with reporters making money for their betters er uh higher-ups. Obama is a bankable attention getter and his coverage sells eyeballs. McCain WAS like that before he had to adjust his quotable quips to his new position as the ostensible head of the republican party. He has much less latitude to "speak his mind" as AMC would gush ( she also like Biden for the same reason at least )

Unlike BJK I did finish the diavlog ( I needed to stop for a while though to catch my breath ) ya didn't miss too much.
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2008, 09:59 AM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Remember when all Ana Marie talked about was ass-f---ing back at Wonkette ?

Somehow, compared to her current Time incarnation, she didn't seem like she was straining her journalistic credibility then.
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:12 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
Remember when all Ana Marie talked about was ass-f---ing back at Wonkette ?
Yes, which is why I laughed out loud when I saw that one of the diavlog segments was titled "Matt and Ana Marie’s husband share the same fantasy."

I hate AMC, and make it a point to avoid reading or listening to her, as virtually everything I witnessed before tuning her out indicated that she had nothing insightful to say. I'm convinced that the reason she's in the positition she's in today is because male pundits think they have a chance to score with her. (That may seem rude, but AMC invited such comments when she began posting about her sex habits).
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:39 PM
Clingon Clingon is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Thus Spoke Elvis -- (That may seem rude, but AMC invited such comments when she began posting about her sex habits).
So your point is that because of this all of her observations/opinions on other subjects are suspect? I don't see the connection.

If you'd rather not watch her diavlogs, then you just shouldn't watch them. It's still a fairly free country last time I checked.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:49 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clingon View Post
So your point is that because of this all of her observations/opinions on other subjects are suspect?
Not at all. Rather, I've never observed AMC say anything so insightful as to jusitify her fame and position. So I presume that factors other than talent -- namely, her attractiveness to many male pundits and readers -- are the likely explanation for quick rise to prominence.
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:59 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thus Spoke Elvis View Post
Not at all. Rather, I've never observed AMC say anything so insightful as to jusitify her fame and position. So I presume that factors other than talent -- namely, her attractiveness to many male pundits and readers -- are the likely explanation for quick rise to prominence.
Time also had an obligation to jump on the whole "internet thing." I'm guessing that the popularity of wonkette played the biggest part.
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  #40  
Old 07-24-2008, 08:01 AM
Clingon Clingon is offline
 
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Default Re: Obamamania: The World Tour

Quote:
Elvis -- I've never observed AMC say anything so insightful as to jusitify her fame and position. So I presume that factors other than talent -- namely, her attractiveness to many male pundits and readers -- are the likely explanation for quick rise to prominence.
I never read Wonkette so I'm unfamiliar with what went before or how she got where she is. My perspective is limited to now and I personally didn't hear anything in this conversation that was far out or that I hadn't heard from others. Still think it was an interesting and spirited diavlog and would like to see them back again.

Slightly off subject, but I also don't see any major contradiction in personally liking McCain more even though ones ideology falls closer to Obama's. Apparently there are a number of people who are in this category.
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