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  #1  
Old 07-21-2008, 07:02 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default The Conservative Legal Revolution

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  #2  
Old 07-21-2008, 10:32 PM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
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Default Depressing Realities of Politics-as-Usual

Very good DV for getting at the realities of how politics actually works. The DV title is mildly misleading. It goes way beyond just the Conservative Revolution to show the anatomy and physiology of the body politic.

Depressing as hell but definitely must-know material.

Especially liked the point about presidents, once-elected as "predators" on their respective parties (acting out of self-interest and the will to stay in power), as with Nixon, as with Clinton, and as surely will be the case with Obama if he gets elected. (We've already witnessed the mechanism in his flip-flops.)

Also chilling: how certain realities (like the Iraq War) have constituencies cutting across party lines which do not change just because the party in power has changed names.

The poor fools who have made the error of identifying a laudable and necessary new social movement with a particular candidate (guess who?) are about to get their noses rubbed in it big-time.

Thanks to both.

EW

Last edited by Eastwest; 07-21-2008 at 10:39 PM..
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  #3  
Old 07-21-2008, 10:54 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

I was perusing through the news today when I can across some photos of Senator Obama in Iraq. Something looked odd at first and then it hit me... They weren't wearing body armor. You know what that looks like? It looks like victory!

Last edited by piscivorous; 07-21-2008 at 11:04 PM..
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  #4  
Old 07-21-2008, 11:14 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Quote:
It looks like victory!
Not if you're dead:

Quote:
U.S. Confirmed Deaths
4124
DoD Confirmation List

Latest Coalition Fatalities
07/21/08 DoD Identifies Marine Casualty
Staff Sgt. Danny P. Dupre, 28, of Lockport, La., died July 15 from wounds sustained while supporting combat operations in Al Anbar province, Iraq.
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2008, 09:20 AM
JIM3CH JIM3CH is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Not if you're dead:
That’s a little cynical, don’t you think? Many of the fallen have left behind thoughts and feelings, in letters and other communications, that they were fully supportive of the current military mission to establish a semblance of order for the Iraqi people. I think many (I want to say most) of the fallen, and the loved ones they left behind, knew the risks and believed in that mission. Servicemen and women will never have the luxury to determine under what conditions they will or will not fight. Once the original purpose of the war, to establish a beachhead for middle east oil, was exposed and discredited the US military adapted quite well to their new, more constructive, mission. Invoking the dead to imply that “victory” in Iraq does not matter (to them) is a bit off; because it almost certainly did matter to them while they were alive.

Clearly you mean no disrespect, and I hope I am not accusing you of that. The poignant addition of the name of the most recent fallen soldier given in your post actually dignifies your comment, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2008, 02:04 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
You know what that looks like? It looks like victory!
Yea, and if you've been watching Fox, it's been looking that way for the last five years! Five long years of excruciating victory featuring limited, but not unsubstantial casualties, especially if you count PTS victims and suicides. But you war mongers are obviously willing to overlook the human costs, or you wouldn't be war mongers.

So here's the real problem with your victory:
Ever since the weapons of war became mass produced products of an industrialized society, the need to indoctrinate those who keep that industry at peak productivity, has become almost as essential to the war effort as the troops on the ground. Who are these people that grease the wheels of industry? The workers, the management, the engineers, the people who provide support... just about everybody. In other words, if a great majority of people are not committed to a modern industrialized war effort, that effort is in serious jeopardy.

Granted, things have changed greatly since Rosy the riveter helped motivate Americans to crank out as many ships, planes, tanks, jeeps, guns, rations, and ammo as was humanly possible, but even in the high-tech war age, where huge amounts of money will substitute for elbow grease, you still have to convince those who pay the taxes that you have a good cause, or you are likely to fail, even with the most powerful, competent, and dedicated military in human history.
So I get why you shout victory from the rooftops, because the real surge is actually a PR campaign to win back the support of the people.

But with numbers looming around minus eighty percent approval, my advice would be: enjoy your victory today, because unless you can pull off the PR coup of all time, waging the next five years of victory might become a little more difficult than the last five.
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  #7  
Old 07-23-2008, 12:48 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Quote:
Clearly you mean no disrespect, and I hope I am not accusing you of that. The poignant addition of the name of the most recent fallen soldier given in your post actually dignifies your comment, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth
It was the use of the word "victory" that I found deeply offensive to the dead. The celebratory tone is disrespectful.

"It looks like victory" trivializes the war and makes it sound like a football game. It's creepy and tawdry. There's nothing to celebrate, and no one has won anything.
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  #8  
Old 07-23-2008, 03:59 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIM3CH View Post
Once the original purpose of the war, to establish a beachhead for middle east oil, was exposed and discredited the US military adapted quite well to their new, more constructive, mission.
While I take your tone here as respectful and sincere, and agree with your heartfelt version of respecting the intentions of the fallen, I feel the need to point out that the above sentence reads as if we sent our people in to take an entire, sovereign nation by force, so that we would no longer have to pay them for their oil, with intentions to continue the practice until we controlled the entire region. Maybe you meant something else?

As for the new mission, correct me if I'm wrong as I am not sure what you meant by this, from what I've seen it appears we are restoring order by reinstating certain Sunni groups to power so they can resume their dominance of the other ethnic groups and tribes in the area, and limit insurgency.

Are you saying the new mission is to undo the old mission? I'm just asking for clarification here.
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  #9  
Old 07-21-2008, 11:57 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
I was perusing through the news today when I can across some photos of Senator Obama in Iraq. Something looked odd at first and then it hit me... They weren't wearing body armor. You know what that looks like? It looks like victory!
Oh, good, then I guess we can come home! Woo!!

Thought you would find this interesting, Pisc:

Quote:
Despite all the talk about Iraq being "calm," I'd like to point out that the month just before the last visit Barack Obama made to Iraq (he went in January, 2006), there were 537 civilian and ISF Iraqi casualties. In June of this year, 2008, there were 554 according to AP. These are official statistics gathered passively that probably only capture about 10 percent of the true toll.

That is, the Iraqi death toll is actually still worse now than the last time Obama was in Iraq! The hype around last year's troop escalation obscures a simple fact: that Obama formed his views about the need for the US to leave Iraq at a time when its security situation was very similar to what it is now! Why a return to the bad situation in late 05 and early 06 should be greeted by the GOP as the veritable coming of the Messiah is beyond me. You have people like Joe Lieberman saying silly things like if it weren't for the troop escalation, Obama wouldn't be able to visit Iraq. Uh, he visited it before the troop escalation, just fine.
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2008, 01:43 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Quote:
... I can across some photos of Senator Obama in Iraq. Something looked odd at first and then it hit me... They weren't wearing body armor. You know what that looks like? It looks like ...
a photo op on an American military-controlled air base, where for the arrival of Sen. Obama, security pushed every Iraqi at least ten miles away?

Your ability to interpret data to suit your wishes never fails to astound, pisc.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 07-22-2008 at 01:50 AM..
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  #11  
Old 07-22-2008, 07:57 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
I was perusing through the news today when I can across some photos of Senator Obama in Iraq. Something looked odd at first and then it hit me... They weren't wearing body armor. You know what that looks like? It looks like victory!
I smell victory!!


Quote:
U.S. Forces Kill Relatives of Iraqi Governor
By RICHARD A. OPPEL JR. and ALI HAMEED

BAGHDAD — American Special Operations forces shot to death the son and nephew of the governor of Salahuddin Province during a raid on Sunday in the northern city of Bayji, the latest in a series of operations that have resulted in the deaths of civilians or close associates of Iraqi government officials.

The governor, Hamed al-Qaisi, threatened to resign in protest and said he would suspend cooperation with American officials.

[...]
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2008, 10:23 AM
JerseyBoy JerseyBoy is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

For a moment at first I thought Pinkerton was interviewing Prime Minister Maliki.
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  #13  
Old 07-22-2008, 10:55 AM
Bloggin' Noggin Bloggin' Noggin is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Very interesting diavlog. Many thanks to both participants!
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  #14  
Old 07-22-2008, 12:42 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Victory or death

From the all wise Senator Obama's mouth
Quote:
When asked if he is committed to winning the war in Iraq, Obama said, "I don't think we have any choice. We have to win the broader war against terror that threatens America and its interests. I think that Iraq is one front on that war, but I think the central front is in Afghanistan and in the border regions of Pakistan."
Just how many month ago did he wish to surrender?
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  #15  
Old 07-22-2008, 01:02 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Victory or death

From the all wise Senator McCain's mouth:

Quote:
McCain said U.S. military success had made it possible for troops to return. "When you win wars, troops come home. And we are winning," he said.
Just how many months ago did he say we should stay in Iraq for a hundred years?

McCain sure is flexible. Today he says we can come home, but two weeks ago:

Quote:
John McCain's position that we cannot risk the progress we have made in Iraq by beginning to withdraw our troops immediately without concern for conditions on the ground.
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  #16  
Old 07-29-2008, 05:00 AM
rgajria rgajria is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

Excellent Diavlog. Kudos to BH team for getting these two together. Very informative but interesting and fun throughout.
I wish Ms. Althouse would do an appearance with Annie Gotlieb.
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  #17  
Old 07-29-2008, 08:06 AM
JoeK
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Thumbs up Re: The Conservative Legal Revolution

This was a phenomenal diavlog. The best interview-diavlog ever.

Pinkerton should get his own weekly or bi-weekly show.
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