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Old 07-22-2009, 09:40 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: eastern sierra
Posts: 5,413
Default Re: A Good Chair is Hard to Find (Ezra Klein & Will Wilkinson)

Originally Posted by Francoamerican View Post
Unions, like all other organizations in a liberal democracy, are voluntary associations established by law. They are no more "collectivist" than corporations or political parties or interest groups (lobbies) or private clubs for that matter.

Collectivism refers to the organization of an entire society in which all individual and corporate ends are subordinate to the good of the whole. Socialism, communism, fascism have all been called "collectivist" in this sense, but I have never seen labor unions denounced as collectivist by anyone outside the lunatic fringe of the American right.
That's an interesting distinction. I don't see how corporations are collective unless they act as a group. Then they form lobbies, as you said. I didn't say that unions are not voluntary, but in some cities back east if you want to work in a certain trade, you have to be a union worker. I wonder if you can work in an union automobile plant if you're not union. But then there are, of course, right to work laws which have lessened the power of unions and which unions have fought mightily against.

Perhaps my terminology is off, especially with the Randian allusion. But you must admit that unions themselves use the term collective when they refer to their bargaining.

Again, I said conservatives are wary (as I see you may not be) of collectivism. ...not that they want to wipe unions out, but believe that in general economies operate in their most efficient manner when the workers are regarded, judged and paid as individuals.

You may not be aware of this, but we live in an imperfect world. Yes, really.The ideas I'm suggesting as possible principles of conservatism will never be full realized. But I believe there are certain predilections in the thinking of conservatives and liberals and that's what I'm interested in sorting out.

(instead of calling each other assholes)

As for badhatharry.... came from Jaws originally but is the last thing you see on the credits for House. I guess a lot of conservatives like House...the bastard.

Last edited by badhatharry; 07-22-2009 at 09:48 AM..
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