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Old 12-23-2011, 06:25 PM
Ray in Seattle Ray in Seattle is offline
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW Washington
Posts: 441
Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Re: My previous comment:
Originally Posted by Ray in Seattle View Post
To expand on this just a bit. Loury illustrates this disconnect from reality very well. He said (paraphrasing) don't Americans see that the Arabs have all the oil and perhaps we'd be better off doing what it takes to be their friends? I must admit that my stomach turned over when I heard that - just as it does when I read comments by some here to that same effect. Does Loury really think that the average American would think it's a good thing to sell out our friends and allies for (possibly a few months of) cheaper gas at the pump? I think it's an argument that only a progressive lefty could make with a straight face. And when they make it most Americans become even stronger supporters of Israel - and develop an even stronger disgust with the left side of American politics, if that's possible.
And like most things in life - they are far more complex than at first imagined. I've spent the morning reading about Glenn Loury, first out of simple curiosity, but now because his compelling life story (so far, and I hope he hangs around for a long time) touches on many themes discussed here that I find interesting. I have watched a few previous diavlogs where Glenn was a participant. But this last one - especially the last segment of it - really piqued my interest.

I am now reading his Jan 1986 article in Commentary "Behind the Black-Jewish Split". On page 26 he discusses the "loyalty" of immigrant sub-cultures in America - Black and Jewish. I'd like to say something on this before I finish the article.

That is, when a Democratic society agrees to accept immigrants from any ethnic group as citizens - no matter whether they immigrated via the holds of slave ships or in common steerage as refugees - their views on the ME - whatever they are, can not be disloyal, by definition. That's because those immigrants are US citizens. Their opinions are, by definition, American opinions. They can be considered right or wrong, destructive or supportive of what others deem to be American interests - but they can't be "disloyal" - at least as long as they fall within and don't attempt to subvert our Constitutional democratic system.

When someone accuses them of disloyalty they are committing a transgression against the very idea of egalitarian democracy - the values that say that all Americans are free to express their opinions on how our government is run and who should run it - within the limits of Constitutional authority, of course. To deprecate such a fundamental American value can far more justifiably be seen as un-American and a form of disloyalty - at least to American principles IMO.

And so, when someone accuses American Jews of disloyalty for their (supposed) support of Israel they are attempting to de-legitimize their participation as equal citizens. And if the accused are American Jews - who are actually under-represented in that opinion compared to non-Jewish Americans - who they don't accuse of disloyalty - then that is certainly a form of antisemitism (as Walter Mead suggested).

I need to read more before I will able to either modilfy, retract or amplify my previous comment above re: Loury's puzzlement (bolded above or click to replay that part of the diavlog) as to why Americans' love for oil does not make us more appreciative of the Arab's views vis a vis Israel and its Jews.
Self determination for DNA

Last edited by Ray in Seattle; 12-23-2011 at 07:00 PM..
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