True Confessions (Heather Hurlburt & Eli Lake)

[Bloggingheads]

[chiwhisoxx]

ohhhhh boy. looking forward to this one, but wouldn't be surprised if it got a touch...heated in parts.

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx

...it got a touch...heated in parts.

That's an understatement

[viewer3000]

Is this apparent 'profound and unshakeable' relationship a particularly religious point of view toward the American Israeli relationship? Do non-Christian and non-religious Jewish Israelis and Americans see the relationship this way? Somehow I missed the wedding. Israel can do what it wants, and America should consider altering its 'unshakeable' support stance in the face of their consistent defiance.

Israel's intransigence seems to be one of the biggest obstacles to forward negotiations and Americans like Heather and Eli's blind acceptance of this "profound" relationship is a symptom of what allows it to continue. Some Palestinians have unwisely resorted to violence. This must be denounced. But would Israel "allow" peaceful demonstrations by Palestinians? Even supporters of Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist if it would sit at the table in good faith with Obama's proposal.

It's not clear to me how America benefits from its relationship with Israel particularly when Israel's government is not willing to even discuss widely accepted terms for the 'starting point' of negotiations. Israel's logic is simple. Why should they - Israel has what it wants already (land and control) and doesn't want to give up anything - end of story. Their rhetoric on negotiation is empty. America suffers from its blind support of Israel without holding it accountable to negotiate in good faith. I'm not saying the Palestinians are innocent in this, but they don't have the power to control the conversation's tone.

I've always thought it delusional at best when American politicians speak of Islamic terrorists hating us for our values and way of life. Since Israel has the power to control the conversation’s tone, why don't we Americans hold our good friend Israel accountable for its misbehavior? It seems to me that Obama's proposal is a gentle first and fair step to do just that. American politicians scoring political points by being 'tough' (à la Netanyahu speech ovations) is destructive and short sighted.

Eli's irrational and obstinate bias should disqualify him from writing anything other than opinion on this issue.

[stephanie]

Originally Posted by viewer3000

Is this apparent 'profound and unshakeable' relationship a particularly religious point of view toward the American Israeli relationship?

I don't think so, but I'm interested in your thoughts and those of others. In part I don't think so, because:

Do non-Christian and non-religious Jewish Israelis and Americans see the relationship this way?

Yes, I think so. Most Christians (at least IME, I don't have numbers on the Christian Zionism thing) don't actually have religious concerns about Israel. My impression is, rightly or wrongly, the sympathy and connection that Americans tend to feel toward Israel has another cause.

I'm more critical of Israel than seems to be accepted in our mainstream politics (based on the behavior of Congress and bizarre reactions to the mildest perceived deviations by Obama), yet I totally get the natural sympathy and it has nothing to do with religion.

Israel can do what it wants, and America should consider altering its 'unshakeable' support stance in the face of their consistent defiance.

My question would be, why does this seem so impossible in our political reality (because it does). I think Israel might initially freak, but might actually behave in a more productive way in response to real US pressure (as discussed in the diavlog today), but it seems that imposing such pressure is much less politically feasible than it was in the past -- than in the first Bush administration, for example.

But would Israel "allow" peaceful demonstrations by Palestinians?

They'd have to. The fact that the US is such a significant ally is one reason why a non-violent movement by the Palestinians would probably be extremely successful. As long as opponents of a deal can point to terrorism and support for terrorism and violent means in general by the Palestinians, Israel can basically get away with anything in the eyes of the US, IMO. It's not actually rational, but it is totally understandable and predictable, IMO.

Even supporters of Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist if it would sit at the table in good faith with Obama's proposal.

I'm not convinced this is true, but I don't think it should be the stumbling block. I guess this is what was frustrating me about Eli's argument, which I'd like to understand and might be sympathetic to. It almost seemed as if he were just saying "nothing can be done" over and over. Maybe I'll try to listen to part of it again.

[JonIrenicus]

It seems the current stasis of Israeli opinion is a sort of waiting for superman moment when the palestinians reject Hamas or hamas changes its position on the existence of Israel.

Saving those two minor miracles? Remain stateless.

I get it. If you are going to be attacked no matter what you do, you may as well get as much as you can and sacrifice as little as possible. But it does not change the fact that there seems to be no sense or concern for the search for an endgame to all of this.

It's different but similar to the Korea split, no one thinks the state of those two countries can stay the same way forever, that that would be good. And it is also true that one side is much more to blame for the hostilities and suffering for its own people.

All true, so... what then? Just let it simmer in that state indefinitely?



It's one of the things that rubbed me the wrong way about the stories of Israel being indifferent and negative towards arab spring. Why? Because it would likely lead to less stability and increased danger for Israel. That's all probably true, but so what? The most important thing is Israels stability, at the cost of painful governmental progress of your neighbors? The attitude may be rational, but incredibly selfish.


I am with Israel by and large, I don't think they are the main obstacle for peace, but I do think too many of them are perfectly contented and resigned to accept the indefinite stalemate between Israel and the Palestinians as a tolerable state. That does not seem like a good place to be, but then I don't live in an area where so many of my neighbors would be glad to see me pushed into the sea.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus

All true, so... what then? Just let it simmer in that state indefinitely?

Sometimes that's all you can do because nothing seems like the perfect move. I am reminded of our current budget problems. Everyone knows we have them but no solution seems feasible so we just wait and lob bombs at the other side.

[Stapler Malone]

Eli is correct. National interests are changing and contingent. Nations should constantly be re-examining their commitments and alliances. So the question then is: What has Israel done for us lately?

[BornAgainDemocrat]

Originally Posted by Stapler Malone

Eli is correct. National interests are changing and contingent. Nations should constantly be re-examining their commitments and alliances. So the question then is: What has Israel done for us lately?

I don't fault Ashkenazi Americans for their outsized influence in shaping American foreign policy in the Middle East. If I were in their shoes, and possessed of their talents, I would act the same way. What angers me, however, is their defining America's national interest in such a way as to exlude the economic interests of America's working classes. I am speaking of Ashkenazi support for our current trade and immigration policies -- which, as can be documented, are both largely of their doing -- and which are undermining the standard of living of the 80 percent of the population, turning us from a middle-class democracy into a racially-stratified class society.

That strikes me as just plain stupid in terms of future American support for the state of Israel and of Israeli Jews in general. Suppose demographic trends eventually overwhelm the Jewish state (something I fervently hope never happens). D Israeli Jews think they will be welcomed into this country as refugees by Evangelical Christians? A thin reed indeed when you consider the ideological foundations of their support. Better build that support on the friendship of American working people.

[thprop]

Originally Posted by Stapler Malone

Eli is correct. National interests are changing and contingent. Nations should constantly be re-examining their commitments and alliances. So the question then is: What has Israel done for us lately?

I think the better question is what has Israel ever done for the United States other than take $100 billion, and continue to take $3 billion a year, spy on us (and keep demanding that we free the traitor) and attack our Navy.

[chamblee54]

Is this a coincidence? Eli mentions the Armenian unpleasantness, and the server freezes.
It is a bit of trouble, but sometime downloading the mp3, and playing the file on your own equipment, works better.

chamblee54

[BornAgainDemocrat]

Was much better than I expected! Powerful, moving, humane.

It won't advance the peace process though. Not without Europe's financial committment.

See my comments: http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...n-middle-east/

[sugarkang]

Recently, Heather and Eli have been cutting each other's sentences off a bit more often than in the past. Please don't do this. I like to listen to both of you.

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by sugarkang

Recently, Heather and Eli have been cutting each other's sentences off a bit more often than in the past. Please don't do this. I like to listen to both of you.

Second that! And this future diavlog is the time I hope both agree to cease fire

[sugarkang]

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

Second that! And this future diavlog is the time I hope both agree to cease fire

I don't want them to cease fire. On the contrary, I'd like them to shoot with all they've got. I just want them to take turns doing it like in the old pistol duel days. I think that's why Bob/Mickey diavlogs are so good. Mickey trolls Bob and just lets the magic happen.

[look]

Originally Posted by sugarkang

I don't want them to cease fire. On the contrary, I'd like them to shoot with all they've got. I just want them to take turns doing it like in the old pistol duel days. I think that's why Bob/Mickey diavlogs are so good. Mickey trolls Bob and just lets the magic happen.

Yes. It was kinda cute to see Eli managing his frustration. Good DV.

(Bob does his fair share of trolling )

[opposable_crumbs]

Eli and Heather discuss the choices that Palestinians have between Hamas and Fatah, well they seem to have one more choice than the American electorate.

To see real corruption look at both sides of congress hail a leader of a rogue nation with a secret nuclear program the openly defies both the international community and their very own president.

All while being pressured by a foreign lobbying group, who is not listed as one, being bolstered by large campaign donations from Jews who support the most right wing of policies of Israel, and having their home state benefiting from the billions they have secured in over seas military aid. Quite a racket, and the reason why America is incapable of being an honest broker, now less so that ever. The ghosts of 1948 are gathering at the UN and they are far more of a threat to Israel, than the boogey man of Iran.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs

To see real corruption look at both sides of congress hail a leader of a rogue nation with a secret nuclear program the openly defies both the international community and their very own president.

All while being pressured by a foreign lobbying group, who is not listed as one, being bolstered by large campaign donations from Jews who support the most right wing of policies of Israel, and having their home state benefiting from the billions they have secured in over seas military aid. Quite a racket, and the reason why America is incapable of being an honest broker, now less so that ever. The ghosts of 1948 are gathering at the UN and they are far more of a threat to Israel, than the boogey man of Iran.

I don't agree with your characterization of Netanyahu, but his appearance before Congress was telling...twenty standing ovations essentially giving the finger to the Arabs. We need to extricate ourselves.

PS who are the ghosts of 1948?

[chamblee54]

Eli lets his touchy feely side out.
Later, Eli takes a hit from a smoking device, declares his respect for Heather, and remembers an experience with Yassir Arafat. What a dog!

Many of the things that Eli says about Hamas and Fatah, the Palestinians can say about some of the Israeli parties.

chamblee54

[chamblee54]

Heather discusses working with Eli.
When I started to enter this comment, I made a mistake, and hit enter before I had made my comment. I got this helpful message:
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chamblee54

[thouartgob]

Gee Eli what exactly do you mean by ELDERS ?

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/363...4:38&out=34:47

[ginger baker]

Stapler,

What has Israel done for us lately?

...Well put!

[ctcboater]

I find Cenk Uygur's analysis of Netanyahu's speech cuts to the real problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8GMN...&feature=feedu

[popcorn_karate]

Originally Posted by ctcboater

I find Cenk Uygur's analysis of Netanyahu's speech cuts to the real problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8GMN...&feature=feedu

nice reporting.

Personally, I'm trying to get my ancestral homeland in Africa back. Sure, my forefathers left it, oh maybe sixty thousand? years ago or so - but see, I have a piece of paper where i scribbled down that Africa was mine all along so nobody could possibly object...

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by popcorn_karate

nice reporting.

Personally, I'm trying to get my ancestral homeland in Africa back. Sure, my forefathers left it, oh maybe sixty thousand? years ago or so - but see, I have a piece of paper where i scribbled down that Africa was mine all along so nobody could possibly object...

And you even know the name of your great-great-great-...-grandmother, amirite?

[popcorn_karate]

Originally Posted by bjkeefe

And you even know the name of your great-great-great-...-grandmother, amirite?

nice.

[uncle ebeneezer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought converted Jews also get right of return as well, so ancestry isn't even necesarry. Me, I'm claiming Maui as my holy-land. Ocean, did you post that flag I gave you?

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought converted Jews also get right of return as well, so ancestry isn't even necesarry. Me, I'm claiming Maui as my holy-land. Ocean, did you post that flag I gave you?

It's done, uncle. I had to become a kahuna before claiming rights to the land. And it wasn't easy. But people were impressed by my name, waves, curative powers and all. So the rituals of lava were passed. I got a discount and was able to do it from a distance by taking pictures of the volcano craters.

I'm aiming at claiming all the islands, you know, relatives and friends and all, we may need the extra room. I'm trying to see if we can get pineapple plantations back here. I really loved them and it's a shame they're gone to far lands.

I'm coming back to mainland to make other arrangements. I'll keep you posted. In the meantime start signing up people. And capital. We'll have universal health insurance here.

Cheers.

[Wonderment]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought converted Jews also get right of return as well, so ancestry isn't even necessary.

Not only converted Jews. Also, spouses of Jews and anyone -- Jewish or not -- who has one Jewish grandparent.

Under the grandparent criterion, Israel imported 1 million Soviet "Jews," about a third of whom were not Jewish by any stretch of the imagination. Many of these "Jews" were and are practicing Christians.

The Russian Zionists now comprise one of the most virulently right-wing blocks in Israeli politics. Openly racist Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is an example.

[uncle ebeneezer]

No wonder they need so much land! Is there anyone they won't allow to live there...oh wait

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by ctcboater

I find Cenk Uygur's analysis of Netanyahu's speech cuts to the real problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8GMN...&feature=feedu

That was righteous. Thanks for the link.

On a somewhat related note, I wonder if harkin watched Bibi's speech to count how many times he said "I," "me," and "my."

[Wonderment]

I find Cenk Uygur's analysis of Netanyahu's speech cuts to the real problems.

Yes, good job, Cenk. I share your digust and disappointment.

I would add that I can think of nothing more offensive to the Arab-Muslim world than the appalling spectacle of those Congressional standing ovations in defense of the occupation of "Judea and Samaria."

I'd bet a helluva lot of pastors could burn a helluva lot of Korans and produce less contempt for the USA than the image of a bi-partisan Congress cheering Netanyahu.

[Wonderment]

Uri Avnery on the Congressional farce.

IT WAS all rather disgusting.

There they were, the members of the highest legislative bodies of the world’s only superpower, flying up and down like so many yo-yos, applauding wildly, every few minutes or seconds, the most outrageous lies and distortions of Binyamin Netanyahu.

It was worse than the Syrian parliament during a speech by Bashar Assad, where anyone not applauding could find himself in prison. Or Stalin’s Supreme Soviet, when showing less than sufficient respect could have meant death.

What the American Senators and Congressmen feared was a fate worse than death. Anyone remaining seated or not applauding wildly enough could have been caught on camera – and that amounts to political suicide. It was enough for one single congressman to rise and applaud, and all the others had to follow suit. Who would dare not to?......

[DenvilleSteve]

Originally Posted by ctcboater

I find Cenk Uygur's analysis of Netanyahu's speech cuts to the real problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8GMN...&feature=feedu

I can't stomach Cenk. Way too partisan. But republicans in the house are terrible on the Israel issue. That said, the arabs would kill every Israeli if they had the chance. No matter what border lines they withdrew to.

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve

I can't stomach Cenk. Way too partisan.

The mind reels.

[opposable_crumbs]

Arabs make up 20% of Israel.

[handle]

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve

I can't stomach Cenk. Way too partisan. But republicans in the house are terrible on the Israel issue. That said, the arabs would kill every Israeli if they had the chance. No matter what border lines they withdrew to.

No comment... am I in position for a Robie nomination? Does lobbying help?

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by ctcboater

I find Cenk Uygur's analysis of Netanyahu's speech cuts to the real problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8GMN...&feature=feedu

Thanks. Cenk is great.