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  #1  
Old 09-01-2011, 06:52 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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  #2  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:20 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

The Religious Right is alive and active today via the Tea Party. The two overlap. They are both dogmatic and driven by ideology rather than empiricism or pragmatism. Just listen to the religious rigidity of Perry, Bachmann and Palin, which is red meat for most of the Tea Party, though cloaked in mindless policy dogmatism. Mindless faith over reason. Richard is correct about the fact that abortion underlies the political divide in Washington to a far greater degree than is discussed.
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  #3  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Richard Land says that one of his main concerns is racial reconciliation. Of course, the SBC is one of the main reasons why racial reconciliation is necessary. After all, it was formed to support slavery when northern Baptists started speaking out against slavery. It supported segregation and the Apartheid regime in South Africa, only belatedly apologized for its history in 1995.

And now it is working against the rights of women and gay people. Charming organization.
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  #4  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:30 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Markos View Post
The Religious Right is alive and active today via the Tea Party. The two overlap. They are both dogmatic and driven by ideology rather than empiricism or pragmatism. Just listen to the religious rigidity of Perry, Bachmann and Palin, which is red meat for most of the Tea Party, though cloaked in mindless policy dogmatism. Mindless faith over reason. Richard is correct about the fact that abortion underlies the political divide in Washington to a far greater degree than is discussed.
Tell me more.
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  #5  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:46 PM
carkrueger carkrueger is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

WOW! Kudos to Amy and BHTV for bringing Richard Land on. Finally a discussion on Christianity from a heavy weight and the real deal.

For most conservatives, abortion is not a wedge issue, it's a defining issue. A pro-life position speaks deeply to ones character and cements a layer of trust on their decision-making. I have never voted for a pro-choice candidate and morally would never be able to. Mr. Land was correct - you can not win the GOP Presidential nomination and be pro-choice.

Great job Amy. Thanks for your thoughtfulness and immense respect towards this topic.
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by carkrueger View Post
WOW! Kudos to Amy and BHTV for bringing Richard Land on. Finally a discussion on Christianity from a heavy weight and the real deal.
Unless you mean "heavy weight" in the literal sense, you would be wrong. Richard Land is not a serious person. He actually talks about "racial reconciliation", despite his organization's putrid history on this matter.

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Originally Posted by carkrueger View Post
A pro-life position speaks deeply to ones character and cements a layer of trust on their decision-making. I have never voted for a pro-choice candidate and morally would never be able to.
If the election were held and you could vote for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Republican candidate and pro-lifer, and Barack Hussein Obama, the Democratic candidate and pro-choicer, and polls showed that every vote counted because there was a dead heat, whom would you vote for?
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  #7  
Old 09-01-2011, 09:22 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by carkrueger View Post
WOW! Kudos to Amy and BHTV for bringing Richard Land on. Finally a discussion on Christianity from a heavy weight and the real deal.
If you had noticed, this isn't Land's first appearance on BhTV. I am not doubting Land's Christianity, but your comment suggests that other Christians who have appeared here aren't the real deal. Which is strange.
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  #8  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:06 PM
chamblee54 chamblee54 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

So George W. Bush is pro life. A few thousand dead Iraqis might disagree.
To call a man who started a war of choice "pro life" makes a mockery of the term.
Also, W was not "just like Reagan". Mr. Reagan knew the difference between saber rattling and foolish action. For all the hot air of his tenure, the USA did not get involved in any major, long term wars.
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  #9  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:12 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Richard Land's silly Amnesty policy

Here.

This was tried under Reagan and failed. Business and the WSJ, which Mr. Land loves, don't want "workplace enforcement" and will bribe and threaten politicians to make any such enforcement impossible. Why don't we enforce the laws on the books now? Answer; Business doesn't want it.

Nor do the Democrats want to stop the flow of illegal aliens -whether by controlling the border or by stopping the abuse of the visa process. Again, that's why the laws are not being enforced now. And there's no reason they'll change after Amnesty.

So there's no reason to believe that Amnesty or some "grand bargain" will result in anything other then even more illegal immigration. Mr. Land knows this - which makes his pitch dishonest.

Since Mr. Land is supposedly a Christian. Let me ask him this. Is it Christian to break into another country and live there in defiance of their laws? Is yes, does that mean I can move to Canada because I want to increase my standard of living, lie to the Canadian officials, break their laws, and illegally live off their welfare system, because its makes me richer?

Or maybe its the Christian thing for me to hire some illegal alien at half the standard wage -and let an American starve - so I can go on a Hawaiian vacation.

If so, cool. I always love it when making money anyway possible and loving Jesus go hand and hand. Mammon AND Jesus - its the Richard Land way.

Last edited by rcocean; 09-02-2011 at 10:36 AM..
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  #10  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:17 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Quote:
The Religious Right is alive and active today via the Tea Party. The two overlap. They are both dogmatic and driven by ideology rather than empiricism or pragmatism. Just listen to the religious rigidity of Perry, Bachmann and Palin, which is red meat for most of the Tea Party, though cloaked in mindless policy dogmatism. Mindless faith over reason. Richard is correct about the fact that abortion underlies the political divide in Washington to a far greater degree than is discussed.
I think you are muddying the waters here. It's true that many T-Partiers are card-carrying members of the religious right, but that doesn't tell you much. Many progressive Democrats are from the religious left. So what? The libertarian wing of the TP is generally non-religious, and the economic and foreign policies views of the TP are consistent with secularism.

There's a big change going on in the Republican party base in terms of foreign policy, and Perry, Bachman and Palin are NOT representative of that change. Its prophet is Ron Paul, and his influence is reshaping the party.

Rather than writing off the TP, the better move is to separate its wheat from chaff and support those elements in the TP that are pro-peace, secular, non-xenophobic and green.
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  #11  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:28 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Rather than writing off the TP, the better move is to separate its wheat from chaff and support those elements in the TP that are pro-peace, secular, non-xenophobic and green.
Name names here, Wonderment. Who exactly are you referring to?
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  #12  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:28 PM
chamblee54 chamblee54 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

From the first 18 minutes of this affair, I would say it is Mr. Land who is the "cynical, crass politician".
He says that the ACA is contrary to the pro life interests. ( Or something like that. I really don't feel like reviewing this blabberfest to find his exact words.) So, he goes on with a few standard complaints against ACA, compares it to the British Health Care system, says it will wind up rationing care...but does not say one more word about abortion. Will ACA promote abortion? That is what he says at first, but after throwing that stinkbomb in the room does not back it up.
Mr. Land says that health care reform is needed, but that ACA is not the answer. It seems like all the Repubs did was attack and complain when the debate was going on. I don't see where an alternative plan was put into place. If the Repubs had really cared about America, they would have worked with the administration to enact a health care plan. Instead, they played political football. That is cynical, crass politics at it's worst.
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  #13  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I think you are muddying the waters here. It's true that many T-Partiers are card-carrying members of the religious right, but that doesn't tell you much. Many progressive Democrats are from the religious left. So what? The libertarian wing of the TP is generally non-religious, and the economic and foreign policies views of the TP are consistent with secularism.
But the problem is that, if that's true, it's a vanishingly small wing of the tea party. Any of the polling that has been done suggests that the tea party is even more likely than republicans generally to be anti-abortion, anti-gay-marriage and pro-religious-tests.

I suspect your admirable optimism may be coloring your judgment of how many potential allies for your views exist within the tea party.
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  #14  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:50 PM
chamblee54 chamblee54 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

So Thomas Jefferson did not like slavery?
Did anyone ask Sally Hemings?
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  #15  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:11 PM
Globalcop Globalcop is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Are my weeks just flying by or have there been a lot more "Values Added" diavlogs as of late?
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  #16  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:35 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Name names here, Wonderment. Who exactly are you referring to?
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.

The TP is a grassroots movement. Although comparisons can be odious, when the civil rights movement, feminist movement or gay rights movement started it was hard to "name names." Today more than ever, mass movements are leaderless and multidimensional (in the streets, on social media, among independent bloggers). The ideas come first; the names will emerge later. We shouldn't be so quick to write off the TP as a bunch of jingoistic, minority-hating, religious-right loons; the direction, ideology substance of the movement is still up for grabs.

I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally. There was plenty to object to, for sure, but the conversation was more fluid than you might expect. The predominant message of the TP is that both Republicans and Democrats suck. That's a message well worth exploring. It's a good conversation starter.

Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
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  #17  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:53 PM
chamblee54 chamblee54 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
The three descriptions could be used interchangeably with the three personalities. Michele Bachmann has the best hair.

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  #18  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:00 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
...
Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
They're idiots and buffoons. They make the Republican party stupider. They're foot-stomping political naifs with puerile instincts, and there's no distinction between them and "the likes of" Bachmann, Palin and Beck - each of whom exemplifies one or more of the ugly characteristics shared by the whole movement, and each of whom bears responsibility for a portion both the vapidity and the current strength of the movement.

I hope I haven't been too subtle about expressing myself here.
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  #19  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:03 AM
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Default Not just politicians ... also thinkers.

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.

The TP is a grassroots movement. Although comparisons can be odious, when the civil rights movement, feminist movement or gay rights movement started it was hard to "name names." Today more than ever, mass movements are leaderless and multidimensional (in the streets, on social media, among independent bloggers). The ideas come first; the names will emerge later. We shouldn't be so quick to write off the TP as a bunch of jingoistic, minority-hating, religious-right loons; the direction, ideology substance of the movement is still up for grabs.

I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally. There was plenty to object to, for sure, but the conversation was more fluid than you might expect. The predominant message of the TP is that both Republicans and Democrats suck. That's a message well worth exploring. It's a good conversation starter.
Keep hope alive. Obama 12, right?

Quote:
Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
Wow, the power of words. Who knew that just uttering "wingnut" could crush the nascent peace and freedom "coalition of wingers and lefties" you found by happenstance one fine day in the park.
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  #20  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:03 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally.
Did you get a sense of who they were in favor of? Ron Paul, Bachmann or Perry?
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  #21  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:14 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Did you get a sense of who they were in favor of? Ron Paul, Bachmann or Perry?
As I said, this was a couple of years ago. Bachmann was still a nobody, Perry was busy fixin' executions in Texas, and most of the sentiment was anti rather than pro: anti-Bush, anti-Obama, anti-establishment.

My impression was there was a mix of enthusiasm for Palin and for Ron Paul.
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  #22  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:26 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.

The TP is a grassroots movement. Although comparisons can be odious, when the civil rights movement, feminist movement or gay rights movement started it was hard to "name names." Today more than ever, mass movements are leaderless and multidimensional (in the streets, on social media, among independent bloggers). The ideas come first; the names will emerge later. We shouldn't be so quick to write off the TP as a bunch of jingoistic, minority-hating, religious-right loons; the direction, ideology substance of the movement is still up for grabs.

I accidentally attended a TP rally here in California a couple of years ago. It coincided on the same real estate with our nuclear weapons abolition rally on Tax Day. I found a real mix of people at the rally. There was plenty to object to, for sure, but the conversation was more fluid than you might expect. The predominant message of the TP is that both Republicans and Democrats suck. That's a message well worth exploring. It's a good conversation starter.

Dismissing the TP as "wingnuts" will only make it more likely that the dissident energy will be coopted by the likes of religious fundies like Bachmann, warmongers like Palin, or delusional entertainers like Glenn Beck.
I'm still seeing precious little evidence that this dissident energy exists in any meaningful form. Compare what you're doing here to the line I excerpted from your previous post, in which you identify the strains within the TP that you want to nurture:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Rather than writing off the TP, the better move is to separate its wheat from chaff and support those elements in the TP that are pro-peace, secular, non-xenophobic and green.
So from that, we get discussion of Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Well Ron Paul is the only one of those two that is even slightly non-marginal within the TP, and he's neither secular nor green. This sort of cherry-picking of points of agreement and hand-waving of serious differences (opposition to most of the welfare state, crank monetary policy views, and extremely strong pro-life views being the tip of the iceberg in Paul's case) shows up every time you try to identify your diamonds in the Tea Party rough and sell them to us. Given that there's ample polling data supporting my opinion that the Tea Party is basically just a re-branding of Republican Party, I'm doubtful that mean comments by Liberals are going to change anything. I mean, have we forgotten what the Tea Party's darling candidates looked like in 2010? Christine Odonnell, Sharron Angle, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio...where exactly are pro-peace candidates here? The secular ones? The Greens?

I don't doubt that you've talked to people more congenial to your world view at TP events, but that hardly reflects upon the movement as a whole or the candidates and policies that it produces. After all, I've talked to plenty of folks at Democratic Party events that veer off into odd areas of the political spectrum that the Party as an institution has nothing to with. At this point, the looks like the GOP, talks like the GOP, and walks like the GOP. Let's call it what it is.
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  #23  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:35 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
They're idiots and buffoons. They make the Republican party stupider. They're foot-stomping political naifs with puerile instincts, and there's no distinction between them and "the likes of" Bachmann, Palin and Beck - each of whom exemplifies one or more of the ugly characteristics shared by the whole movement, and each of whom bears responsibility for a portion both the vapidity and the current strength of the movement.
.
Why did they have to show up and ruin everything?!
sniff
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  #24  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:44 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Fair points. Keep an open mind about the Paulites: Peace is green.
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  #25  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:21 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Richard Land says that one of his main concerns is racial reconciliation. Of course, the SBC is one of the main reasons why racial reconciliation is necessary. After all, it was formed to support slavery when northern Baptists started speaking out against slavery. It supported segregation and the Apartheid regime in South Africa, only belatedly apologized for its history in 1995.

And now it is working against the rights of women and gay people. Charming organization.
I know it's common for many on the left nowadays to try to equate abortion rights and the gay marriage cause to the struggle against slavery and segregation. I think this a little offensive in its disrespect for the suffering that happened under these regimes, (even though I support abortion rights and am neutral on gay marriage.)

You have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the SBC in its racial reconciliation effort, no matter how late it is to the game. After all, the USA itself as a whole was relatively late to the ending of slavery, (even though it's history of slavery was extremely short compared to other countries lasting from 1776 to 1865, and it payed a dearer price). And was even later then most countries to ending segregation.

The most famous Southern Baptist is no doubt Billy Graham, who refused to visit South Africa as long as they required segregated seating. When he did finally start visiting there in the 70's he always spent part of the time lambasting the apartheid regime.

In addendum, I was reminded by Land of that notorious racist and bigot, Jimmy Carter, who is also a member of the SBC

Last edited by whburgess; 09-02-2011 at 02:22 AM..
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  #26  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:27 AM
CrowsMakeTools CrowsMakeTools is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Quote:
Mr. Land says that health care reform is needed, but that ACA is not the answer. It seems like all the Repubs did was attack and complain when the debate was going on. I don't see where an alternative plan was put into place. If the Repubs had really cared about America, they would have worked with the administration to enact a health care plan. Instead, they played political football. That is cynical, crass politics at it's worst.
I was disappointed that Amy Sullivan didn't call him on this. Richard Land complains that ACA is antithetical to a pro-life viewpoint because it might result in rationing health care for seniors. He seems completely oblivious to the fact that the current state of affairs severely limits access to health care for anyone without health insurance, and pretty much all of the Republican proposals would limit Medicare spending far more severely than ACA. And Land does nothing to address the gigantic portion of health care expenditures allocated to futile interventions in end-of-life care, many of which, it turns out, actually hasten death and prolong suffering.

And then there's this nonsense he argues about the irreducible complexity of unicellular life forms, that goes completely unrebutted in this piece.

This really isn't a diavlog at all. It is an interview, with Richard Land reciting a well- rehearsed list of right wing talking points, and Amy Sullivan simply moving down her list without taking issue with anything Land has to say about any of these issues. To be fair to Amy Sullivan, Richard Land does have some deficits with regard to his ability to listen in a thoughtful way to an alternative viewpoint, which is, after all, a prerequisite for dialogical process.

Last edited by CrowsMakeTools; 09-02-2011 at 01:33 AM..
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  #27  
Old 09-02-2011, 01:54 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

Quote:
Richard Land complains that ACA is antithetical to a pro-life viewpoint because it might result in rationing health care for seniors.
Socialist death panels!
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  #28  
Old 09-02-2011, 02:29 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
If you had noticed, this isn't Land's first appearance on BhTV. I am not doubting Land's Christianity, but your comment suggests that other Christians who have appeared here aren't the real deal. Which is strange.

I agree with you in hoping that Carkreuger is not questioning the Christianity of others who have come on as Christians. However, Land is the first I've seen who didn't seem a little reticent or defensive about where he is coming from. That is refreshing, and maybe this is what Carkreuger was talking about. I'd like to see him on more often.

Last edited by whburgess; 09-02-2011 at 02:54 AM..
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  #29  
Old 09-02-2011, 02:41 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Richard Land's silly Amnesty policy

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Originally Posted by rcocean View Post
Here.

This was tried under Reagan and failed. Business and the WSJ, which Mr. Land loves, don't want "workplace enforcement" and will bribe and threaten politicians to make any such enforcement impossible. Why don't we enforce the laws on the books now? Answer; Business doesn't want it.

Nor do the Democrats want to stop the flow of illegal aliens -whether by controlling the border or by stopping the abuse of the visa process. Again, that's why the laws are not being enforced now. And there's no reason they'll change after Amnesty.

There's no reason to believe that Amnesty or some "grand bargain" will result in anything other Amnesty and even more illegal immigration. Mr. Land knows this - which makes his pitch dishonest.

Since Mr. Land is supposedly a Christian. Let me ask him this. Is it Christian to break into another country and live there in defiance of their laws? Is yes, does that means I can move to Canada because I want to increase my standard of living, lie to the Canadian officials, break their laws, and illegally live off their welfare system, because its makes me richer?

Or maybe its the Christian thing for me to hire some illegal alien at half the wage and let an American starve in order for me to go on a Hawaiian vacation.

If so, cool. I always love it when making money anyway possible and loving Jesus go hand and hand. Mammon AND Jesus - its the Richard Land way.
You and those who think like you have lost on this issue. Thank God.

Mr. Land wouldn't consider me a Christian, but I do consider his approach to be the Christian one. I'm very glad to hear that over 70% of the SBC assembly voted to regard undocumented Hispanics who came here to work as good decent people who deserve citizenship. The only objection I'd have is with fining them. I'd simply background check them, require they take an exhaustive course in learning the Constitution, American Civics, and swear loyalty to the Constitution. Then welcome them aboard.

We need more good, hard working Americans from Mexico to counterbalance the worthless, trashy, meth head population that's dragging this country down.

I'm hoping Rick Perry, in his campaign for POTUS, continues with his record of openness toward undocumented workers as well as to American Muslims that he has demonstrated in Texas. If he does so, he's got my support.

Last edited by whburgess; 09-02-2011 at 02:46 AM..
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  #30  
Old 09-02-2011, 03:35 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Markos View Post
though cloaked in mindless policy dogmatism. Mindless faith over reason. Richard is correct about the fact that abortion underlies the political divide in Washington to a far greater degree than is discussed.
Need.......stimulus.....Keynes....Keynes.....

Considering that the Left is still depending on the skeletal remains of John M. Keynes for virtually every single one of its policy proscriptions, I think your description of vivid Conservatism as "mindless policy dogmatism" is amusing.
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  #31  
Old 09-02-2011, 03:37 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
They're idiots and buffoons. They make the Republican party stupider. They're foot-stomping political naifs with puerile instincts, and there's no distinction between them and "the likes of" Bachmann, Palin and Beck - each of whom exemplifies one or more of the ugly characteristics shared by the whole movement, and each of whom bears responsibility for a portion both the vapidity and the current strength of the movement.

I hope I haven't been too subtle about expressing myself here.
The American Middle Class is a bunch of idiots. Smash these bourgeois wreckers.
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  #32  
Old 09-02-2011, 03:43 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Richard Land says that one of his main concerns is racial reconciliation. Of course, the SBC is one of the main reasons why racial reconciliation is necessary. After all, it was formed to support slavery when northern Baptists started speaking out against slavery.
What is this, the Balkans? Multiracial or ethnic society is impossible if people exploit ethnic grievance like this.

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And now it is working against the rights of women and gay people. Charming organization.
Considering what you're probably referring to as "rights", I have no objection to their actions here. Of course, that makes me like a Captain in the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corp, if I'm guessing right.
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  #33  
Old 09-02-2011, 03:49 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Richard Land's silly Amnesty policy

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
You and those who think like you have lost on this issue. Thank God.
Doesn't look like it. Obama is as left wing as it is likely to get, and even he has stepped up enforcement to a slight degree. (Though he has in essence begun an amnesty program through executive order)

Indeed, immigration is beginning to look like gun control back in 1998 where you see the winds changing. Now gun control isn't even a viable political issue for the left.

And why not? Does a nation not have a right to its borders? Does it not have a right to decide who enters?

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I'm very glad to hear that over 70% of the SBC assembly voted to regard undocumented Hispanics who came here to work as good decent people who deserve citizenship.
How can anyone possibly know that? This almost has to be thought of as a religious matter in order to assume the open borders position.
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  #34  
Old 09-02-2011, 04:09 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Richard Land's silly Amnesty policy

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Doesn't look like it. Obama is as left wing as it is likely to get, and even he has stepped up enforcement to a slight degree. (Though he has in essence begun an amnesty program through executive order)

The problem with the porous border is not the migrant workers but the narcotics trade. This is why

Indeed, immigration is beginning to look like gun control back in 1998 where you see the winds changing. Now gun control isn't even a viable political issue for the left.

And why not? Does a nation not have a right to its borders? Does it not have a right to decide who enters?

How can anyone possibly know that? This almost has to be thought of as a religious matter in order to assume the open borders position.
I don't support open borders. I support what Land expressed here. Comprehensive Immigration reform means close the borders and welcome those who have come here to work and been good members of the community.

Here's the deal. Not only do we have a right to control the border, we have the ability to control it as well. So why haven't we done so? The reason we haven't is because our government has remained lax for decades while the business community and others have given a wink and a nod to these people to come on in. The back door has been left unlocked for these people to slip in and do our laundry, mow our yards, and pick our produce. Why blame them now?.

So, I'm all for controlling the border, particularly in light of the narco trade and criminal element that takes advantage of it. But let's not make life harder for the poor hard working help that we've let slip in by calling them names or treating their children who were raised here as if they aren't part of America. Give them citizenship and make it easy for them.

And close the border.
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  #35  
Old 09-02-2011, 06:24 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I agree with you in hoping that Carkreuger is not questioning the Christianity of others who have come on as Christians. However, Land is the first I've seen who didn't seem a little reticent or defensive about where he is coming from. That is refreshing, and maybe this is what Carkreuger was talking about. I'd like to see him on more often.
I assume you mean he's the first conservatgive Christian who isn't defensive about where they are coming from. Anthea Butler didn't seem that apologetic. Nor Cornel West.
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  #36  
Old 09-02-2011, 06:31 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
In addendum, I was reminded by Land of that notorious racist and bigot, Jimmy Carter, who is also a member of the SBC
Wait, didn't Carter leave the SBC in that ancient year 2000?

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/21/us...tist-body.html
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  #37  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:47 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
But the problem is that, if that's true, it's a vanishingly small wing of the tea party. Any of the polling that has been done suggests that the tea party is even more likely than republicans generally to be anti-abortion, anti-gay-marriage and pro-religious-tests.

I suspect your admirable optimism may be coloring your judgment of how many potential allies for your views exist within the tea party.
Ditto.
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  #38  
Old 09-02-2011, 08:37 AM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Ditto.
Are you a dittohead? Just kidding!
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  #39  
Old 09-02-2011, 09:27 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
The American Middle Class is a bunch of idiots. Smash these bourgeois wreckers.
I don't recall saying a single word about the "American Middle Class," of whom I certainly count as a member. But this post is a good illustration of the sort of exalted, grandiose view the TP holds of itself. Never mind that they're a disliked minority faction in a party that itself claims between a fifth and a third of the population at large; they've apparently convinced people like Sulla that "Tea Party" designates some sort of generic American ideal, exemplars of of the American Way, identical in fact and spirit to the best this country offers!
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Last edited by AemJeff; 09-02-2011 at 09:37 AM..
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  #40  
Old 09-02-2011, 09:41 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Southern Baptist Edition (Amy Sullivan & Richard Land)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are most representative of the convergence of some progressive values with libertarian and TP values. I generally like what I hear from these thinkers on immigrant rights, civil liberties, foreign policy and psychotropic substance prohibitionism.
I don't think Ron Paul would support, as you do, carte blanche benefits to illegal immigrants.

Quote:
No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services.
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