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  #121  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:39 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
Our Libertarian Senator:

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...nalize-speech/

It's stuff like this that earns contempt...somehow a health-care system modeled after what the Heritage Foundation praised when Mitt Romney enacted it in Massachusetts is "socialist" and killing our freedom but criminalizing ATTENDING a speech - under threat of deportation or imprisonment - is consistent with Paul's "purist" libertarianism. As for the judicious use of "conservatard" IMHO what used to be conservatism has become an aggressive - albeit brain-dead - agenda of FOXoid talking points that aren't rooted in adherence to what I've always understood as the underlying rationale for conservatism - a concern for stability within communities, a preference for cohesion and continuity in the social sphere, fiscal prudence (i.e. taking on debt judiciously and responsibly rather than using it as a partisan strategy to undermine government) and moderation in the realm of reform. IMHO adherence to all-encompassing ideology or single-minded formulas ("Cut Taxes!) for their own sake are not conservative traits. Nor are comments like "burn the records and shut the doors on public schools" coming from an even remotely conservative mindset.
You're better than that. You're one of the coolest, well-informed people on the board, and only lessen your message with the Harry Kowalski act.

Don't forget to also talk about the excesses of the liberal agenda.
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  #122  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:44 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
You presume that it costs a lot of money to prepare a kid for college when it does not, and that somehow the market would fail to provide a decent education for college-able students in lower income backgrounds, which it would not.
No, I presume it costs more to prepare children for college than to not prepare them to college, and that getting paid more to do so will be more desireable for education providers than getting paid less to do so.
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  #123  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:46 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
True. The left is busy buying pay raises and pensions from politicians in exchange for votes. Why prevent people from voting when you can just put the politician in your pocket?
So, you withdraw your claim that someone will demand that operative's right to vote will be taken away?
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  #124  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:53 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
So, you withdraw your claim that someone will demand that operative's right to vote will be taken away?
Sure, if you can acknowledge that the left is either totally irresponsible, really bad at math, or both.
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  #125  
Old 06-01-2011, 03:05 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
No, I presume it costs more to prepare children for college than to not prepare them to college, and that getting paid more to do so will be more desireable for education providers than getting paid less to do so.
There will still be a market demand for providing education to poorer students who are still college material, so you're still arguing for some sort of illogical price failure.
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  #126  
Old 06-01-2011, 04:12 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
There will still be a market demand for providing education to poorer students who are still college material, so you're still arguing for some sort of illogical price failure.
Demand from who? Will private colleges pay for poor kids to go to high school so that they can possibly go to those colleges on scholarship? How would this possibly be more than a tiny, tiny minority of poor children? And how would these schools identify potentially talented children, seeing as they'll have no academic record at all because nobody has paid for them to go to school at all in their lives?
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  #127  
Old 06-01-2011, 04:26 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Sure, if you can acknowledge that the left is either totally irresponsible, really bad at math, or both.
Huh? based on what?
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  #128  
Old 06-01-2011, 04:28 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Demand from who? Will private colleges pay for poor kids to go to high school so that they can possibly go to those colleges on scholarship? How would this possibly be more than a tiny, tiny minority of poor children? And how would these schools identify potentially talented children, seeing as they'll have no academic record at all because nobody has paid for them to go to school at all in their lives?
yeah, that.

But, shhh. The market will fix it.
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  #129  
Old 06-01-2011, 04:33 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Huh? based on what?
Tit for tat, miceelf!

(Okay, that probably wasn't helpful.)
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  #130  
Old 06-01-2011, 04:38 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
I think Stalin knew all the ways in which he deviated from marxism which is why he was so eager to disappear true believers. I suspect he used it the way that Republicans use Hayek, primarily as a marketing strategy.
Without Marx, there would be no Stalin. Without Nozick, there would still be Sicilian mobsters.
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  #131  
Old 06-01-2011, 04:40 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Demand from who? Will private colleges pay for poor kids to go to high school so that they can possibly go to those colleges on scholarship? How would this possibly be more than a tiny, tiny minority of poor children? And how would these schools identify potentially talented children, seeing as they'll have no academic record at all because nobody has paid for them to go to school at all in their lives?
Note that under my model, the government would provide a subsidy. So yes, they would be paying for it, and they would be able to distinguish themselves. Again, you have this notion that schooling is expensive. It is not. The amount of waste is astounding. You don't need fancy robotics labs, million dollar sports stadiums, etc. all you need is a teacher, some low cost computers, and a connection to the Khan Academy.
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  #132  
Old 06-01-2011, 06:30 PM
ImmRefDotCom ImmRefDotCom is offline
 
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Default "strong on immigration"?

That is indeed a problem, because what Williamson calls strong is actually weak and opposed by the great majority of Americans: Rick Perry summary.
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  #133  
Old 06-01-2011, 06:35 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

I have no idea who Harry Kowalksi is. Nor do I think - with all respect - that this is a period in which zinging "liberal excesses" makes any sense whatsoever. The worst "liberal excess" in the present period is timidity in the face of a near-insane GOP narrative about cutting deficits - WHICH THEY THEMSELVES EFFECTIVELY CREATED WITH FISCALLY PROFLIGATE TAX-CUT DOGMAS - during a deep recession.

And, yes, I think that conservatism is essentially brain-dead & totally dysfunctional and that, as "liberal" as I am, I'm more of a conservative in the Burkean or Adam Smith tradition than a Randian jerk like Paul Ryan (who doesn't even have minimal integrity when it comes to credible numbers to support his budget projections.)

I refuse to acknowledge that an authentically conservative impulse drives the destructive agenda of the contemporary GOP. (In fact, unmediated capitalism is the least "conservative" economic system yet devised. Which is why social democrats - who want to save capitalism from it's obvious excesses - are more conservative than Randians whose project is driven by the desire to unleash their egos and just roll the dice in service of social nihilism. If I were a communist or a fascist lunatic I'd probably be drooling at the prospect of moving in to "clean up" after that genius plan to destroy any vestige of social fabric.)
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  #134  
Old 06-01-2011, 06:44 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
My sensibilities are gravely offended by your use of such language. It tends to lend an air of acceptance to others on this board to go a step further toward normalizing phrases like moonbat and the oh so radical leftwinger. Of course I have employed the back bar inside the triangle, but still thought I would serve a greater purpose by highlighting the infraction. At least by my lights, I represent normalcy, even-handedness and civility (do strike from your mind the image of a tattletale, scold and kiss-up).
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  #135  
Old 06-01-2011, 06:49 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
I have no idea who Harry Kowalksi is.
Stanley's more political brother?
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  #136  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:02 PM
rfrobison rfrobison is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
Indeed, part of my problem with real libertarianism (and when it comes to politics I'm sorry but I think Rand's libertarianism is infinitely more influential than Nozick) is that it makes these discussions into faith-based no discussion is possible ones. Well, government is bad. It just is. Because. So we must get rid of public schools, don't waste my time talking about public policy that might improve them. If you want public schools you are a socialist or a statist or you just hate freedom. I don't think you are saying this, btw, I'm frustrated that you don't share my irritation at it.
I think I may have found the crux of our difficulty. You believe libertarians aren't interested in real-world solutions to actual problems. I can respect that position.

I do maintain, however, that not only is libertarian influence extremely marginal in policy and the Republican party, whatever Jeff may think, but any objective assessment of the growth of government over the last century at least shows the welfare state is in absolutely no danger from libertarians or anyone else. From my point of view its like a mother who takes a few fries off the plate of her morbidly obese kid in the hope of doing something for his health and he starts screaming: "What are you trying to do, starve me to death?!"

By the way, I was more than half joking with my Jeff "shorter," and I think his response shows he got the joke. I do get frustrated with the fact that my liberal friends often seem incapable of acknowledging that people on my side might have actually done a few good things over the course of history.

I'm gonna leave the rest of this discussion aside. I only listened to about half the DV in question, and I only ever read one book by Ayn Rand in high school. Anthem, I believe it was. I don't remember it. Must not have been that great...
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  #137  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:07 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Is Somalia a Libertarian Paradise?

http://mises.org/daily/2066
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  #138  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:15 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
Is Somalia a Libertarian Paradise?

http://mises.org/daily/2066
Good Lord. I thought it was just an old joke. Leave it to the loons at Mises.org to make a serious case for it.
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  #139  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:16 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
I have no idea who Harry Kowalksi is. Nor do I think - with all respect - that this is a period in which zinging "liberal excesses" makes any sense whatsoever. The worst "liberal excess" in the present period is timidity in the face of a near-insane GOP narrative about cutting deficits - WHICH THEY THEMSELVES EFFECTIVELY CREATED WITH FISCALLY PROFLIGATE TAX-CUT DOGMAS - during a deep recession.

And, yes, I think that conservatism is essentially brain-dead & totally dysfunctional and that, as "liberal" as I am, I'm more of a conservative in the Burkean or Adam Smith tradition than a Randian jerk like Paul Ryan (who doesn't even have minimal integrity when it comes to credible numbers to support his budget projections.)

I refuse to acknowledge that an authentically conservative impulse drives the destructive agenda of the contemporary GOP. (In fact, unmediated capitalism is the least "conservative" economic system yet devised. Which is why social democrats - who want to save capitalism from it's obvious excesses - are more conservative than Randians whose project is driven by the desire to unleash their egos and just roll the dice in service of social nihilism. If I were a communist or a fascist lunatic I'd probably be drooling at the prospect of moving in to "clean up" after that genius plan to destroy any vestige of social fabric.)
Thanks, much food for thought.

If I knew jack about fiscal policy, medicare, deficits, etc., I would respond

As it is, I'm interested in beginning an investigation into both sides of the argument.
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  #140  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:20 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Oops

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
Stanley's more political brother?
I meant Walt Kowalski:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7X2_...eature=related
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  #141  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:22 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Smilies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
...the last refuge of scoundrels
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  #142  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:58 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Good Lord. I thought it was just an old joke. Leave it to the loons at Mises.org to make a serious case for it.
Jebus that is funny. A quote from the beginning of the piece:
Quote:
The BBC's country profile of Somalia sums up this view as widely publicized by the mainstream media: "Somalia has been without an effective central government since President Siad Barre was overthrown in 1991. Fighting between rival warlords and an inability to deal with famine and disease led to the deaths of up to one million people."

The first sentence is indeed true: when the president was driven out by opposing clans in 1991, the government disintegrated. The second sentence, however, depicts Somalia as a lawless country in disorder. As for disorder, Van Notten quotes authorities to the effect that Somalia's telecommunications are the best in Africa, its herding economy is stronger than that of either of its neighbors, Kenya or Ethiopia, and that since the demise of the central government, the Somali shilling has become far more stable in world currency markets, while exports have quintupled.
Not lawless supposedly but there were a million deaths. Ya gotta break those eggs for libertarian utopias and think of those tasty liberty omlettes for those with the most guns and biggest bank accounts Now if they could only get tort reform ...
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  #143  
Old 06-01-2011, 08:12 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Kowalski - sounds familiar - wasn't that the name of the guy Marlon Brando played in "Streetcar Named Desire"? By the way, I could never get a handle on what that movie was about.

Last edited by bkjazfan; 06-01-2011 at 08:36 PM..
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  #144  
Old 06-01-2011, 08:40 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
Note that under my model, the government would provide a subsidy. So yes, they would be paying for it, and they would be able to distinguish themselves. Again, you have this notion that schooling is expensive. It is not. The amount of waste is astounding. You don't need fancy robotics labs, million dollar sports stadiums, etc. all you need is a teacher, some low cost computers, and a connection to the Khan Academy.
You may be talking about a model with a government subsidy, but Williamson wasn't. And seeing as you just asserted that the market would provide, I don't see how you're not contradicting your earlier argument. Also, we're talking about primary education. Money isn't being wasted on robotics labs or fancy sports stadiums at your average public K-12 school.
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  #145  
Old 06-01-2011, 09:06 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
Without Marx, there would be no Stalin. Without Nozick, there would still be Sicilian mobsters.
Without Darwin we wouldn't have Marx or Hitler so the saying goes.
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  #146  
Old 06-01-2011, 10:52 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Thanks for the clarification "look." I'm a big Clint Eastwood fan. The entire "ouevre" going back to Rawhide and spaghetti. But definitely one of our great American directors. Loved that movie, although I know that some didn't.

If you want to explore "my" side of the argument - such as it is - you can check in here:

http://titanicsailsatdawn.blogspot.com/
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  #147  
Old 06-01-2011, 10:55 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

The Mafia/Nozick Connection:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...ert-nozick.php
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  #148  
Old 06-01-2011, 11:37 PM
rfrobison rfrobison is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

OK, so when I promised to stop talking about this subject, I lied. Wouldn't be the first time. I'll try to confine my comments to health care and a bit on taxes in the hope of smoothing out some of the sharp edges in this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
[Re: libertarian health care policies] Get rid of regulations on insurance companies, get employers out of the market (at least all tax encouragement for such involvement). Get back to more people paying for health care services out of pocket, so as to put some market pressure on prices. Oh, and get rid of AMA and other restrictions to the number of health care providers and loosen up drug regulations (no need for prescriptions), probably. Those kinds of things.
Of the policy prescriptions you lay out above, I'd say at least some of them, or some bits of them, are worth trying. "Get rid of (all) regulations on insurance companies" is a pretty broad statement, and maybe libertarians do favor it. What I favor -- and the Democrat's health care package completely ignores -- is getting rid of the 50 separate, state-based micromarkets the insurers operate in, each with their own separate regulations, mandates, etc., etc. Insurers are prohibited by law from selling across state lines. It's ridiculous and serves the interests of no one except regulators who shuffle paper for a living. Imagine if GM, say, had to build 50 separate versions of each model it makes to comply with 50 sets of pollution and safety standards, for example. If they had to sell cars that way, only the mega-rich would have wheels and they would be driving '75 Novas.

Same for cutting the link between employment and insurance. This is a relic of the second world war and serves no useful purpose. It pushes up employment costs -- thereby raising unemployment -- and insulates everyone, doctors, patients, and the companies themselves, from any sort of meaningful price signals, hence the skyrocking cost of health care.

An entirely state-run system would almost be worth it, in my view, if it got companies out of the health care business. Ending the tax deduction for employer-provided insurance and refunding the money to the employee was a perfectly sensible proposal that McCain made as a presidential candidate. And he was savaged for it by the current occupant of the White House. Obama's team has half admitted this by dropping the tax deduction on so-called Cadillac insurance plans, but he boxed himself in and can't do the right thing now. And what little progress the Dems allowed themselves will be entirely undercut by more employer mandates. Now all businesses over 50 people will be required to offer health coverage. Again, with predictable effects on employment.

The rest, no prescription meds, etc. seems a deregulation too far, in my book. I'd rather not have to take it on faith that the pill I just swallowed isn't gonna kill me. And in exchange for letting insurers operate nationwide and charge more for, say, fat diabetics with high blood pressure, I'd bar them from denying coverage outright to anyone.

Quote:
Unit... [is] closer to a real libertarian on the issue that anyone else around here, IMO).
He sure is, bless his heart, and more power to him. We need libertarians like we need pacifists [props Wonderment!], in my view. They keep the rest of us honest.


Quote:
This [rfr's contention that the health care law is going to prove prohibitively expensive] strikes me as nothing but "it must be true," in that -- numerous valid criticisms of the recent reforms that I think exist -- this is not one. Moreover, any efforts to better address costs through the reforms (in ways that other countries do) were undermined by the screaming of the same people who employ the libertarian rhetoric, which is one reason you are going to have a hard time making me think this is at all a serious argument.
I'll make you a wager, Steph, if you're game. If, in five or 10 years, the U.S. is spending less on health care as a percentage of GDP, adjusted for inflation, than it is now, I'll donate $100 to the charity of your choice. If we're spending more, you do the same. Do we have a bet?

Also, I don't understand how Republican "screaming" prevented the sort of sensible cost controls the Democrats supposedly wanted. Your team controlled the White House and both houses of Congress at the time. It looks a lot more like Democratic free lunch-ism in action to me. But that aside, I think we're stuck with this new entitlement and I'm all for doing anything at all to address runaway costs. Call me a cynic, but I don't think Obama's medical panel is gonna do the trick.


Quote:
If you want to talk about Medicare, there's more of a valid concern about cost to the government, I'd agree (as Mark did), but there I'd say that saying it means we have no choice but to go the most radical libertarian way is a dishonest argument (one I see people like Ryan making), when numerous countries handle the issue in numerous ways and no less radical efforts have even been seriously discussed
.

So I gather you don't like the Ryan plan, and that's fine. But here's the thing: For ever so long, the Dems have complained the Republicans had no plan to deal with the deficit/debt. Then they table one and the Dems promptly rubbish it and accuse their opponents of wanting to throw old people into the street to die. That hardly seems conducive to the sort of bipartisan consensus required to tackle this important problem.

Again, from my partisan standpoint, it looks like the Democrats are saying to my team, "You have two choices: roll over on our entire New Deal Mark II, or we'll accuse you of being a bunch of plutocrats. As for the debt problem, that's nothing that a bit of soak the rich won't cure."

We aren't and it won't, but Obama's got the easier argument, politically, and he's very adept at painting his opponents as bad people, so he'll probably win. Relax.
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Last edited by rfrobison; 06-02-2011 at 03:33 AM.. Reason: missing words; punctuation; typo
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  #149  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:28 AM
CrowsMakeTools CrowsMakeTools is offline
 
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Default Kevin D. Williamson and Perry for President 2012

Kevin Williamson is doing his best to promote a Presidential candidacy for Rick Perry.

Give Perry credit--he's served long enough to create a record (unlike another Republican governor and Presidential aspirant, who resigned to become a Fox news commentator), and that record will give policy analysts an excellent opportunity to weigh the economic and social consequences of Republican policy prescriptions.

Governor Perry's record offers an excellent opportunity for a data-driven assessment of Republican social and economic policies. Texas ranks first in job creation, and yet Texans rank 49th in average credit scores. Texas ranks 50th in women receiving prenatal care in their first trimester, 50th in the percentage of uninsured, 49th in per capita spending on Medicaid, 48th in percent of the population with employer-based health insurance, 2nd in birth rate, 1st in the percentage of uninsured children, 45th in SAT scores, 50th in percent of the population with a high school diploma. The list goes on. For more about Texas and the consequences of the Perry policy choices, see:
http://shapleigh.org/system/reportin...onthebrink.pdf
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  #150  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:50 AM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

From Andrew Sullivan's blog today:

"Over several decades Republicans have turned the world 'liberal' into an insult. Yet Republicans still call themselves conservatives and nobody points out that if they are conservatives, then the word 'conservative' does not mean what it used to mean."
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  #151  
Old 06-02-2011, 01:24 AM
rfrobison rfrobison is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
Agree, but neither you nor the libertarians have proposed [tax] systems that would fix the real issues. The complexities aren't the deductions that most people take -- those are simple. They stem from such things as the corporate tax (where you and I would agree if the change was tax neutral or raised more revenue, but that is directly contrary to a libertarian approach, who would probably get rid of corporate taxes) and the different treatment of income taxes and capital gains (which causes all kinds of accounting games that most people don't see since they aren't in the brackets that make this worthwhile).
I can't speak for the libertarians (whoever they are), so I'll speak for myself: here and here. I don't claim any expertise on tax, and real economists who are a lot smarter than armchair pundits like me have knock-down-drag-outs over the appropriate level and form of taxation to maximize welfare, but I have made suggestions on the issue. Take them for what they're worth.

Of course my opinion counts for .000000027% percent more than nothing, given that I'm just some dude on the Internet and Congressman Ryan isn't taking my calls.

Quote:
Right, so we can raise less revenue [by "turning loose" the libertarians on the tax code]. That hardly addresses the concerns you expressed above.
Really? This strikes me as a nonsequitur. You don't have any more idea than I do what a flatter, simpler tax code might do to the revenue side of the equation. The tax code gets written and rewritten and re-rewritten every single year by 430 tax "experts" in Washington. That's no way to fund a government IMHO. I've said nothing here about what rates should be, just that the complexity of the tax code has a cost. It also penalizes saving and investment and subsidizes consumption. Precisely the things it shouldn't do if we care about economic growth. And the REALLY rich, as opposed to the merely well off, can always find clever tax accountants to shelter their income.

We could hardly do worse, in my view, than we do at present--but the current path we're on is unsustainable. That much is clear.

Added: Not sure why, but my links aren't pulling up the right posts. I may try to fix it later, or I may drop it. For those who are DYING to know all things Rob on tax policy, scan further down the threads that I've linked.
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Last edited by rfrobison; 06-02-2011 at 09:38 AM.. Reason: changed link; misspelling; "are">>"aren't"
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  #152  
Old 06-02-2011, 07:41 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

To give some overly general descriptions of liberals vs. libertarians, I'd say the former focus on things we see (things that pull at heart strings) and the latter focus on things we don't (transactional costs, regulatory arbitrage, incentive structures).

It's not like libertarians don't care about matters of the heart. Well, maybe Ayn Rand doesn't. But I'd say almost all libertarians get seething mad when someone tells gay people that they can't get married. All that said, I hope the left is going to completely adopt the "progressive" moniker and ditch the "liberal" one. Because the "liberal" label rightly belongs to libertarians and I'd much rather call myself a liberal: I believe in freedom. Period.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:20 AM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

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Originally Posted by brucds View Post
Thanks for the clarification "look." I'm a big Clint Eastwood fan. The entire "ouevre" going back to Rawhide and spaghetti. But definitely one of our great American directors. Loved that movie, although I know that some didn't.

If you want to explore "my" side of the argument - such as it is - you can check in here:

http://titanicsailsatdawn.blogspot.com/
Whoa, that's scary...ask and you shall receive! What an attractive site. And I see you have a bar right at the top to take one to your breakdown of the deficit debate and our economic future:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...ZTc0NjVj&hl=en

Yeah, I love Eastwood. Who can choose between Dirty Harry and Monco/Joe/Blondie?

Gran Torino was a good movie, but I felt it was pretty much an Eastwood vehicle.
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  #154  
Old 06-02-2011, 09:23 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
You may be talking about a model with a government subsidy, but Williamson wasn't. And seeing as you just asserted that the market would provide, I don't see how you're not contradicting your earlier argument. Also, we're talking about primary education.
The idea would be to shift the recipient of the funding as opposed to eliminating funding altogether--there is a public interest in the provision of education but this is best accomplished through the private market. Some libertarians do endorse a plan without government subsidies but I'm not so sure that's a better alternative.

Quote:
Money isn't being wasted on robotics labs or fancy sports stadiums at your average public K-12 school.
Maybe it depends on the state you live in, but where I came from, a middle class public school fairly close to me had a very nice stadium and a robotics lab.
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  #155  
Old 06-02-2011, 09:31 AM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
To give some overly general descriptions of liberals vs. libertarians, I'd say the former focus on things we see (things that pull at heart strings) and the latter focus on things we don't (transactional costs, regulatory arbitrage, incentive structures).

It's not like libertarians don't care about matters of the heart. Well, maybe Ayn Rand doesn't. But I'd say almost all libertarians get seething mad when someone tells gay people that they can't get married. All that said, I hope the left is going to completely adopt the "progressive" moniker and ditch the "liberal" one. Because the "liberal" label rightly belongs to libertarians and I'd much rather call myself a liberal: I believe in freedom. Period.
When I read brucds' 12:50 Sullivan quote I thought of a friend who always distinguished between liberals and progressive liberals, in which the latter basically meant social engineering. I think maybe you're stuck with calling yourself a classical liberal.
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  #156  
Old 06-02-2011, 09:38 AM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
I hadn't thought specifically about those issues though I'd oppose licenses, which are often used to discourage competition (see the taxi licenses in DC). I don't think we need licensing or testing for students, at least by the government--let the schools decide. I'd also be quite hesitant about a national standards board that would be a shift toward top-down management. I'd say just hold the school to the same sort of safety etc. standards that we hold other businesses to.
I get your drift.
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  #157  
Old 06-02-2011, 09:43 AM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

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Originally Posted by popcorn_karate View Post
ah, confirmation that you have accepted that you are in fact infantile. maybe try a little harder instead of accepting it, look - i'm pretty sure you could post like a big girl if you really really tried.
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  #158  
Old 06-02-2011, 09:50 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Maybe it depends on the state you live in, but where I came from, a middle class public school fairly close to me had a very nice stadium and a robotics lab.
Everyone thinks they're middle class.
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  #159  
Old 06-02-2011, 10:11 AM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Kevin D. Williamson and Perry for President 2012

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Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools View Post
Texans rank 49th in average credit scores. Texas ranks 50th in women receiving prenatal care in their first trimester, 50th in the percentage of uninsured, 49th in per capita spending on Medicaid, 48th in percent of the population with employer-based health insurance, 2nd in birth rate, 1st in the percentage of uninsured children, 45th in SAT scores, 50th in percent of the population with a high school diploma.
Most of these will actually help quite a bit in a bid for the nomination.

1.) Credit Scores. Think of the profits credit companies can make in Texas. It's a windfall. Minimum payments until the the cows come home I reckon as well.

2.) The uninsured and lack of care scores are features not bugs. Think of the tax cuts available to truly needy rich now that money isn't wasted on people who are weak and lazy to begin with and if they can't move you push them into the deser... they will find they're way to other states somehow.

3.) Lack of prenatal care cancels out high birthrate. So it's a wash don't even think about it.

4.) When it comes to achievement scores look at it this way, they want to remove things like evolution, an objective view of history, things that don't really matter in classes anyway. Really, after they are done with the textbooks in Texas ... what's a diploma worth ?

All I can say is if letting nature take it's course when it comes to the weak and lazy is wrong I don't think Rick Perry wants to be right.

PS. Don't mess with Texas !!!
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  #160  
Old 06-02-2011, 10:14 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Free Air Conditioning Edition (Mark Schmitt & Kevin D. Williamson)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
The idea would be to shift the recipient of the funding as opposed to eliminating funding altogether--there is a public interest in the provision of education but this is best accomplished through the private market. Some libertarians do endorse a plan without government subsidies but I'm not so sure that's a better alternative.
But this is the problem with your hybrid free market/government funding approach. Your plan is for the government (i.e., tax payers to fund education while having no say whatsoever in terms of the quality of education, no way of tying it to outcomes, since you don't want assessment of outcomes).

It's taking out every possible way of having any kind of quality control, just funding for-profits to essentially put out a shingle, and then compete, not in terms of quality of education, but in terms of marketing.
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