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Old 01-17-2008, 04:46 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heartland Conservative
Posts: 4,933
Default Re: Jonah Goldberg is...stupid? Really?

Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
The title of the book comes supposedly comes from the phrase "Liberal Fascism" used by H. G. Wells, an influential intellectual in the first third of the Twentieth Century, during a speech at Oxford.
So what? It's totally irrelevant. Not only was this prior to the holocaust, and even the Night of the Long Knives, Wells does not represent contemporary liberals or liberalism any more than you do. It's a red herring, and not a very clever one at that.

This is like when Fox News and Insight Magazine smeared Obama as a radical Muslim and tried to lay blame for it at the feet of Hillary Clinton. Now you think you're cute and clever because you're calling the Democratic Party and liberals for the last 100 years "fascists," and laying blame for it at the feet of HG Wells.

Hint for you McNulty: HG Wells didn't write or publish Jonah's book. Jonah did.

Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
Then, when Mussolini was making the trains run on time and the world seem mired in a Great Depression, Fascism was very attractive to intellectuals.
True: Intellectuals in the Republican Party. Conservatives in America were huge on Hitler and Mussolini. Democrats and liberals not so much. It was the conservatives and Republicans, the wealthy and the industrialists, who found Hitler's fascism so appealing. Don't try to shift this to "intellectuals" or, worse, liberals. That's dishonest and wrong. And finding a few isolated examples of liberals who said something you can take out of context, or which is not representative of Democrats and liberals generally, is hack work consistent with most of your past practice.

Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
The point that he is making is that Hitler delegitimized fascism, which until then had enjoyed a popularity and respectability among intellectuals, even Leftist ones (see the Hitler-Stalin pact and how the Left overnight went from fearing Hitler to praising him).
Again, you are massively overstating the case. There was never, by any stretch of the imagination, anything even close to widespread praise or respect for Hitler or fascism among liberals or the left. There was widespread support for Hitler in America, but it was almost exclusively on the American right, especially among the wealthy.

Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
The term "Liberal Fascism" does not imply that all liberals are secret fascists
Please. It absolutely does, and that was the entire point of the title. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have needed to write that sentence, and none of us would be having this conversation. This is just the latest example of conservatives believing they can just make up any version of the truth that suits them, much like Karl Rove's recent pronouncement that it was the Democrats in Congress who pushed George W. Bush to war with Iraq -- an assertion I would expect you to parrot and promote, given your enthusiastic dishonesty.

Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
although the Left has no hesitancy about calling Bush and Cheney "fascists"
A slight rhetorical excess.

Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
You may deny this, but how many intellectuals supported totalitarian Communism and Stalin during the Thirties, even through the Moscow show trials?
Now you are actually referring to something true, even if only in the service of your larger lie. No one denies that left-wing ideology as manifest in communism led to totalitarian states — China, Soviet Union, Cuba, etc. This is the conventional understanding of the political spectrum: far-left equates to totalitarian communism, while far-right equates to totalitarian fascism.

How would you react if Henry wrote a book called "Conservative Communism"? You would certainly recognize it as a farce if we tried to transplant communism from the left to the right. It's equally a farce for you to attempt a transplant of fascism from the right to the left.

Maybe you should study the Spanish Civil War to learn something about how these two ideologies (communism and fascism) actually got along in reality, and which American poltical factions supported which sides in that war. The answer: Conservatives and Republicans supported the fascists -- and do to this day, while the left supported the Soviet Union. You try to lump them together as kin, but honest people who are connected to reality know that they are mortal enemies and diametrically opposed.

With respect to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to which you referred, again you are either unaware of the history or willfully misrepresenting it.

First, the pact was a source of widespread outrage on both the left and the right for the very reason that the two ideologies were polar opposites. Both the left and right felt betrayed by the agreement.

Second: You pretend the pact was evidence of ideological parity between communists and fascists. But it was not. The pact was a tactical agreement of mutual self-interest designed to buy time and secure hegemony for both sides.

I suspect you are fully aware of both of these points, yet you choose to misrepresent history in the interest of defending Jonah's trash.

Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
Rather than point out where he is wrong factually
You must not pay any attention to anything besides Rush Limbaugh, Mark Steyn, and Ann Coulter. Jonah's book has been substantially discredited all over the place.

Originally Posted by jmcnulty View Post
it is easier to condemn Goldberg as an idiot and "mere" newspaper writer (a criticism that cannot be made againt Paul Krugman -- who has been predicting an imminent recession for 10 years -- who is also a professor, having one of those gradiuate degrees that some here think are so important.)
I love it when you conservatives attack education, and at the same time want to be taken seriously.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 01-17-2008 at 05:13 AM..
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