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Bloggingheads 08-02-2010 11:54 AM

Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 

graz 08-02-2010 12:46 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Hey ... preach it if you feel so inclined!

Salt 08-02-2010 12:58 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
This first segment is going to be very distressing for certain libs, BJ.

Salt 08-02-2010 01:42 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Correction Glenn, the Sherrod story did not happen on Fox until the White House fired her. In fact, Beck defended her from the first.

messwithtexas 08-02-2010 02:31 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 173040)
Correction Glenn, the Sherrod story did not happen on Fox until the White House fired her. In fact, Beck defended her from the first.

My understanding is Fox had already posted links to the Sherrod story at Breitbart's site and taped shows for primetime about Sherrod before she was fired. Beck defended her in a way, but also went on to imply that she is a Maoist.

chamblee54 08-02-2010 02:41 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
At 15:40, Glenn says a mouthful.
The best thing about this diavlog was the fact that one man talked, and the other listened. If this "dialog of teaching moments about skin color and hair styles" is going to be more than damaging noise, there needs to be a little bit less talk and a whole lot more listening. http://chamblee54.files.wordpress.co...ennwhathis.jpg
chamblee54

Salt 08-02-2010 02:57 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quoting Mess:
My understanding is Fox had already posted links to the Sherrod story at Breitbart's site and taped shows for primetime about Sherrod before she was fired. Beck defended her . . .

We agree! Fox did not broadcast anything until after she was fired, and Beck defended her. FYI: "Posting links" is a perfectly normal and defensible activity for a news organization.

messwithtexas 08-02-2010 03:21 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 173050)
Quoting Mess:
My understanding is Fox had already posted links to the Sherrod story at Breitbart's site and taped shows for primetime about Sherrod before she was fired. Beck defended her . . .

We agree! Fox did not broadcast anything until after she was fired, and Beck defended her. FYI: "Posting links" is a perfectly normal and defensible activity for a news organization.

You Breitbarted me!!! The end of my quote is deliberately out of context.

I don't agree with you because I think you are wrong to call for Loury to correct himself. He said, "FoxNews ran with the story". That is empirically correct, both before and after the firing. Is there something I'm missing? Did he ever mention it being "broadcast" or is that a distinction you are creating to better defend FoxNews?

This is so mundane. It's obvious the right wing media, FoxNews included, played a role in this firing regardless of whether the administration acted too quickly (which I think they did). FoxNews is cynically trying to evade any responsibility for covering a slanderous, doctored video by splitting hairs about the method in which it was covered.

BornAgainDemocrat 08-02-2010 03:33 PM

What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Glen mentioned that liberal arts colleges used to be where future ministers were trained. The ideal of a liberal arts education then morphed into a study of the history, literature, and philosophy of Western Civilization from a secular yet elitist point of view (which is when I went to college) and today, apparently, is focused on the development of "critical thinking skills" and applying them to the short-comings of Western civilization, with a particular emphasis on issues of race and ethnicity. But then they note that the canons of political correctness seem to be passing and see that as generally a good thing.

In that spirit, and at the risk of controversy, let me suggest that these colleges should next focus on the history of civilization in general and on the human exploitation upon which all all (pre-modern) civilization was based. This was not just a Western thing. Before modern times there was scarcely a man in the world who was not either exploiting or being exploited and in most cases both (women and children excepted for the most part). This was the human condition. It held true for all groups, irrespective of race, once the hunter/gatherer stage had been passed..

Take the Holocaust as an example. There is a natural tendency to view the Holocaust as a uniquely evil human event. But the fact is -- and this can be documented -- there was not a single crime or human outrage committed against the Jews in the course of World War Two that had not been committed a thousand times over against other innocent human beings in countless societies around the world since history began. In other words the Holocaust, so far from being unique historical event was in many ways an emblematic one -- all the more reason it should never be forgotten.

Once we grasp that there are no innocent lineages in this world, but also none that haven't been brutally victimized at one point or another -- then, and only then, I think, will we build a society that transcends ethnicity and race.

It also might not be a bad idea to have a new class of educated "clerics" in America to teach these lessons to the American people. Then we might realize that our capital wealth is nothing but the accumulated crime and sacrifice of centuries, plus interest, and that the wealthy only hold it in trust so that all classes and races can live off its fruits.

Salt 08-02-2010 03:49 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quoting mess:
I don't agree with you because I think you are wrong to call for Loury to correct himself. He said, "FoxNews ran with the story". That is empirically correct, both before and after the firing. Is there something I'm missing?

You are missing the fact that Fox did not run with the story until after Sherrod was fired. White House publicly fires someone like Sherrod in a situation like this and it's not a story? Come on.

After this vlog, I'm not sure what to expect from these two, but I can't wait. Next time they may come out and apologize to Palin, Beck, O'Reilly and all the others. They (implicitly) left huge monster-truck tire tracks up and down the backs of Skip Gates, Spike Lee, Michelle Goldberg, Cornell West, Michell Obama and half the nutbar posters on this site. I take my hat off. Maybe there is hope.

Simon Willard 08-02-2010 05:52 PM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat (Post 173054)
... The ideal of a liberal arts education then morphed into a study of the history, literature, and philosophy of Western Civilization from a secular yet elitist point of view (which is when I went to college) and today, apparently, is focused on the development of "critical thinking skills" and applying them to the short-comings of Western civilization, with a particular emphasis on issues of race and ethnicity....

"Liberal Arts" includes mathematics and includes science. Always did. People who study science are a little more immune to propaganda and the distortions of thinking that you are concerned about.

Perhaps people who claim to be liberal arts majors should be queried about their exposure to science.

nikkibong 08-02-2010 06:03 PM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 173072)

Perhaps people who claim to be liberal arts majors should be queried about their exposure to science.

I went to a liberal arts school that has very traditional curriculum -- one of the most traditional in the country. Requirements for graduation include a year long Humanities (classics) freshmen course, a senior thesis complete with an oral defense, and yes, even for a history major like me, a year of science. (not rocks for jocks either - its the same science that science majors take.) I took chemistry, fwiw.

Great diavlog, btw. I like conversations about conversations (about conversations?) about race. Especially when conducted by people as acute as Glenn and John.

BornAgainDemocrat 08-02-2010 06:03 PM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
I agree. Though when it comes to how much math and science should the average undergraduate learn, that is a trickier question. I would say at least physics for poets, including cosmology. Drop calculus for elementary statistics up to and including correlation coefficients (otherwise you can't evaluate what is reported in the papers). Basic chemistry and biology too, of course, including population genetics and the theories of natural and sexual selection. Three or four courses in all.

TwinSwords 08-02-2010 06:07 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 173050)
Quoting Mess:
My understanding is Fox had already posted links to the Sherrod story at Breitbart's site and taped shows for primetime about Sherrod before she was fired. Beck defended her . . .

We agree! Fox did not broadcast anything until after she was fired, and Beck defended her. FYI: "Posting links" is a perfectly normal and defensible activity for a news organization.

Fox News may not have said anything about Sherrod on their cable news network before Sherrod was fired, although they obviously would have, had Sherrod delayed her resignation by a few more hours -- as you OBVIOUSLY are well aware.

But Fox News did start pimping Breitbart's lies before Sherrod was fired on:

Their web site
Their Twitter page
Their Facebook page

And they spent the next several days either spreading Breitbart's lies or formulating their own attacks on Sherrod.

It's a strange (and obviously disingenuous) defense of Fox News to say they didn't do something before Sherrod was fired that they did do after she was fired. No one is falling for it.

StillmanThomas 08-02-2010 07:04 PM

McWhorter Fesses Up
 
We've been suspecting this for quite awhile now.

StillmanThomas 08-02-2010 07:09 PM

Loury Goes Massively Post-Racial
 
Betcha nine bucks they won't post this on the front page. :)

Big_Time_Gumshoe 08-02-2010 07:11 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Fox was flogging this video on both their main site and the accompanying Tea Party jamboree "Fox Nation" prior to the resignation.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201007220004

Not to mention the endless analysis in the days following of how Sherrod's speech was "Exhibit A" in "what racism looks like.

As for this diavlog I thought it was excellent, but hardly unusual subject matter for these two. It's not like Glenn or John haven't been making these arguments or ones like these for years. Did you know Glenn served in the Reagan administration? It's true!

But I suppose I should have put two and two together and realized that the ultimate conservative fantasy would be mowing down left-wingers in a monster-truck, "nutbar" indeed.

sapeye 08-02-2010 07:17 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
PC language can be a pain in the butt. Here in Canada, calling someone an Indian is not quite, but nearly, as insulting as using the N word (another silly euphemism. Here, natives are Native Americans, or First Nations, or Indigenous People. But in the US everyone, including natives, uses the term Indian. And if you refer to a US Indian as a First Nations Person, he or she might well say, "Hey, I don't live in Canada, I'm an Indian." Of course indigenous people here might well refer to themselves as Indians.

In the meantime, actual discrimination against natives is rampant: low levels of education, high levels of unemployment, homelessness, drug and alcohol abuse, and incarceration.

Twenty years ago I had my foot ripped off in a motorcycle crash. I became a "disabled person". Even though I'm still more physically active than most "able bodied" people, I'm officially disabled...even when sitting here typing at my computer. When called disabled, I refuse the term and, instead, call myself a cripple. When someone assigns me (or anyone else) a global label, it's discrimination, and given that, I prefer to have the process right out there in plain view.

Roland 08-02-2010 08:22 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Glenn Loury's statement that our colleges need to stop pushing this "security blanket of identity reinforcement" to black students reminded me of the opinion editorial I wrote for Wayne State University's South End, Identity Crisis - Poor Education of Blacks to Blame. While I cautiously agree with Loury on his point, I say that the identity reinforcement that is given to black students is pre-planned, and is of a stereotypical flavor. In my piece, the argument was that - black students do not have an identity at all, thus, they are vulnerable to any identity, which oftentimes work against them.

Further, one of the major flaws I see with our higher education system is that it fails tremendously in the successful use of its talents, resources, and other tools to finally and forever resolve the taints of racial disparities, and its subsequent negative and horrific realities. John and Glenn sound good, and make great points, but, like much of academia, they do very little with their access to the towers of power to make life better for those who live beneath them.

Finally, our great university research centers, and science and math departments have made our lives easier by way of creative comforts, and may continue by even fixing global warming (one day). But these feats drop in comparison and by leaps when huge walls of people continue to fall way below what they could be.

BornAgainDemocrat 08-02-2010 09:32 PM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Well, nikibong! I went to Reed too -- except when I was there (class of 64) they required two years of humanities, which was a double course and so roughly half of the freshman and sophomore curriculum. We read several hundred pages a week, all primary sources. About ten years ago I sat in on a graduate seminar at the Union Theological Seminary in NYC for six weeks while getting radiation treatments; it was on early Church history and they were reading two or three pages a week, out of an anthology.

nikkibong 08-02-2010 09:44 PM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat (Post 173103)
Well, nikibong! I went to Reed too -- except when I was there (class of 64) they required two years of humanities, which was a double course and so roughly half of the freshman and sophomore curriculum. We read several hundred pages a week, all primary sources.

how cool! you're not steve jobs -- but i'm still glad to make your acquaintance.

fyi, hum 110 still includes hundreds of pages of reading a week - though it's now supplemented with (a bit) of subsidiary critical work. but yes, we got reams of homer, herodotus, thucydides (my favorite), and the rest of them.

hum 210 (early modern humanities, dante to voltaire), and hum 220 (modern humanities, voltaire to the primo levi) are offered, but not mandatory. i took both of them, so i got three years of humanities. those were probably my favorite classes i had at reed.

i'd say your worries about the "death of the liberal arts" curriculum do not apply to reed. in many ways, its a stodgy old holdout - like glenn and john. that's to reed's credit, in my opinion.

listener 08-02-2010 10:35 PM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Thanks to John and Glenn for another thoughtful and insightful discussion.

Don Zeko 08-03-2010 12:21 AM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat (Post 173103)
About ten years ago I sat in on a graduate seminar at the Union Theological Seminary in NYC for six weeks while getting radiation treatments; it was on early Church history and they were reading two or three pages a week, out of an anthology.

Obviously I can't speak to your experience here, but I just graduated from a Liberal Arts college myself, and several hundred pages a week was definitely the norm. In fact, several hundred pages a week would only account for a single class in many cases. If you want, I can dig up the reading list for my seminar class. So that's one data point against your thesis at least.

BornAgainDemocrat 08-03-2010 12:50 AM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
I am glad to hear it!

Don Zeko 08-03-2010 12:54 AM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Well that's good, but I think that at least anecdotal evidence from friends at other colleges undercuts your point pretty badly. I went to a selective school with an above-average workload, but it's not like my colleagues at other schools were doing anything like a 2-3 page a week workload. This isn't to say that higher education hasn't changed, and that a great books-heavy humanities class isn't much harder to find than it was even 30 years ago, but they're not quite handing out degrees like hot cakes either.

sapeye 08-03-2010 05:03 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Apparently John doesn't completely agree with Maureen Dowd:
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/298...0:17&out=40:26

James Clyburn also seems to leave a bad taste in his mouth; either that or the memory of the previous Blogging Heads continues to trouble him.
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/298...0:30&out=41:10

Baltimoron 08-03-2010 06:10 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
I'm glad Glenn and John are back in fine form. Wow, Bob and Mickey, and Glenn and John in a week!

Didn't we, though, discuss the limits of a liberal arts education, and the value of apprenticeship, before, in another diavlog? I think both interlocutors would be open to the idea of apprenticeship.

listener 08-03-2010 09:37 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sapeye (Post 173165)
Apparently John doesn't completely agree with Maureen Dowd:
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/298...0:17&out=40:26

Yes, that was quite an 'eye-popping' moment there.

rubbernecking 08-03-2010 09:57 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
I was puzzled when I saw Fox's involvement mischaracterized in the comments. I was sure someone would challenge it. You let me down guys.

Mediamatters' research seems to be accurate and thorough. Here are details on Fox's despicable involvement: http://mediamatters.org/research/201007220004

badhatharry 08-03-2010 10:03 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by messwithtexas (Post 173053)

This is so mundane. It's obvious the right wing media, FoxNews included, played a role in this firing regardless of whether the administration acted too quickly (which I think they did). FoxNews is cynically trying to evade any responsibility for covering a slanderous, doctored video by splitting hairs about the method in which it was covered.

Is it correct to say that an entity has a responsibility if another entity is fearful of the first entity's reaction and because of that does something in reaction to the fear of that reaction?

If so, you are correct that Fox played a role in the firing. Personally I think that's a hell of a stretch.

badhatharry 08-03-2010 10:13 AM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat (Post 173054)
In that spirit, and at the risk of controversy, let me suggest that these colleges should next focus on the history of civilization in general and on the human exploitation upon which all all (pre-modern) civilization was based.

Don't worry they cover this, too. Suffice it to say Western man is evil and everything he does destroys the pristine environment into which he was born.


Quote:

Take the Holocaust as an example. There is a natural tendency to view the Holocaust as a uniquely evil human event. But the fact is -- and this can be documented -- there was not a single crime or human outrage committed against the Jews in the course of World War Two that had not been committed a thousand times over against other innocent human beings in countless societies around the world since history began. In other words the Holocaust, so far from being unique historical event was in many ways an emblematic one -- all the more reason it should never be forgotten.
agreed

Quote:

Once we grasp that there are no innocent lineages in this world, but also none that haven't been brutally victimized at one point or another -- then, and only then, I think, will we build a society that transcends ethnicity and race.
Don't hold your breath. I think most intelligent humans know all about the brutality of man. That doesn't mean there is much to be done about it besides incrementally trying to make things better. Big projects like building societies transcending our nature don't work. And race and ethnicity will vanish one day if the climate doesn't get us first.

Quote:

It also might not be a bad idea to have a new class of educated "clerics" in America to teach these lessons to the American people. Then we might realize that our capital wealth is nothing but the accumulated crime and sacrifice of centuries, plus interest, and that the wealthy only hold it in trust so that all classes and races can live off its fruits.
Oh brother, such a dark view of the enormous accomplishments of so many people. I'd rather some 'cleric' teach about that.

badhatharry 08-03-2010 10:27 AM

Re: What is a liberal arts education for?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 173074)

Great diavlog, btw. I like conversations about conversations (about conversations?) about race. Especially when conducted by people as acute as Glenn and John.

I've never seen acute used this way as in acute people. Acute thinkers, yes...acute people, huh?

You Portland writers are always pushing the limits.

badhatharry 08-03-2010 10:33 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sapeye (Post 173087)
In the meantime, actual discrimination against natives is rampant: low levels of education, high levels of unemployment, homelessness, drug and alcohol abuse, and incarceration.

Just curious but does the malaise you describe always denote discrimination? Can't people accomplish destroying their lives without it?

Salt 08-03-2010 10:47 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quoting Gumshoe:
You're obligated to because I'm calling you out on it. If you want to shirk that, so be it. Just let the record show Breitbart is a propagandist.

I'll take Breitbart any day over the 400 phonies on journolist. Wonder how many of the posters here were on journolist? Which reminds me, what happened to BJ? Did he get recalled to Moscow?

badhatharry 08-03-2010 11:07 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 173187)
I'll take Breitbart any day over the 400 phonies on journolist. Wonder how many of the posters here were on journolist? Which reminds me, what happened to BJ? Did he get recalled to Moscow?

The point that keeps getting missed is Sherrod's admitted bias before she had her great awakening. She said that before that she looked at people as black or white while now she sees them as haves and have nots. In my opinion neither position is correct. It's not the government's place to discriminate or decide who will be the winners and losers. Government workers should be dispassionate and abide by the rules which have been set up for them to follow.

How many people suffered under her prejudice before she was cured of it? This is as good a case as any, brought to us courtesy of Breitbart, which describes the problems associated with big government programs and give-aways.

AemJeff 08-03-2010 11:13 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 173189)
The point that keeps getting missed is Sherrod's admitted bias before she had her great awakening. She said that before that she looked at people as black or white while now she sees them as haves and have nots. In my opinion neither position is correct. It's not the government's place to discriminate or decide who will be the winners and losers. Government workers should be dispassionate and abide by the rules which have been set up for them to follow.

How many people suffered under her prejudice before she was cured of it? This is as good a case as any, brought to us courtesy of Breitbart, which describes the problems associated with big government programs and give-aways.

That point does not get missed. It's fundamental to the narrative. It's irrelevant to the conclusion. This black woman, whose father was murdered by racists, found her way through that pain and discovered her ability to help even this white man. You are assuming facts not in evidence in order to undermine her narrative. Cites, please.

cognitive madisonian 08-03-2010 11:20 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Glenn gets some basic facts wrong. Breitbart didn't distort the video, he put out what he was given without doing the responsible factchecking to make sure that the snippets weren't taken out of context...Kind of like what the NAACP did in reacting without doing the necessary factchecking despite having the video in their possession. And, kind of like what the White House did in firing Sherod.]

Fox did not report the story until the White House fired Sherrod, and at that point they played the snippets that caused Sherrod to be fired. This was normal, conventional journalism.

We don't know who gave Breitbart the video but my guess is that it is someone affiliated with Sherrod. Given her bizarre views ('Breitbart wants to take us back to the days of slavery!'), history of litigating to get ahead, and her husband's outright racism, I think this is entirely reasonable.

nikkibong 08-03-2010 11:29 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 173195)
Glenn gets some basic facts wrong. Breitbart didn't distort the video, he put out what he was given without doing the responsible factchecking to make sure that the snippets weren't taken out of context...Kind of like what the NAACP did in reacting without doing the necessary factchecking despite having the video in their possession. And, kind of like what the White House did in firing Sherod.]

Fox did not report the story until the White House fired Sherrod, and at that point they played the snippets that caused Sherrod to be fired. This was normal, conventional journalism.

We don't know who gave Breitbart the video but my guess is that it is someone affiliated with Sherrod. Given her bizarre views ('Breitbart wants to take us back to the days of slavery!'), history of litigating to get ahead, and her husband's outright racism, I think this is entirely reasonable.

This is beyond pathetic. Did you people glean nothing from this insightful diavlog? The point that Glenn and John were making - ad nauseum - is that matters like SherrodGate and GatesGate, in the grand scheme of things, don't matter. Yet here you are, trying to reargue the Breitbart thing.

Please, move on to more important things. Or just re-listen to the diavlog. Or actually, don't re-listen: just listen. I'm not sure you did the first time.

Big_Time_Gumshoe 08-03-2010 11:31 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
So being part of a list-serv is worse then tarring someone as an accessory to a child prostitution ring when they were really calling the cops on O'Keefe's operation?

Where is the logic in that?

If you can find an instance of a journalist from the list-serv doing something worse in their work I'd love to see it.

Whatfur 08-03-2010 11:33 AM

Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 173193)
That point does not get missed. It's fundamental to the narrative. It's irrelevant to the conclusion. This black woman, whose father was murdered by racists, found her way through that pain and discovered her ability to help even this white man. You are assuming facts not in evidence in order to undermine her narrative. Cites, please.

They are in both the short and the long version of her little speech.


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