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-   -   Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=7175)

Ocean 11-18-2011 08:18 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232104)
Here's some very mainstream American pro-life stuff(ing).

Happy Thanksliving!

Cute.

Ocean 11-18-2011 08:24 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 232109)
I don't agree with their view, but it's not inherently inconsistent. Add the qualifiers innocent human life, and that eliminates (in their minds) all of the above.
One has to make a whole lot of tenuous assumptions about a just world, but I find that people of a conservative bent tend not to have a lot of trouble with that.

Yes, that's the common argument that I hear. But the innocence claim wouldn't exclude children who are victims of war, violence, poverty, disease or hunger.

The point is that the "sanctity of life" is one of those explanations (rationalizations) given a posteriori. It holds by itself, but doesn't pass the challenge of consistency for most people. I make exception to those rare few who indeed may consistently advocate for the sanctity of all life.

miceelf 11-18-2011 08:27 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 232112)
Yes, that's the common argument that I hear. But the innocence claim wouldn't exclude children who are victims of war, violence, poverty, disease or hunger.

I think you are underestimating the ability of the just world assumption to cover a myriad of sins. Witness the response just recently to the photo of the starving African kids.

Wonderment 11-18-2011 08:46 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Wasn't this one of the arguments against the approach Lincoln took?
States rights cuts, to some extent and on some issues, both ways.

Ocean 11-18-2011 09:00 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 232113)
I think you are underestimating the ability of the just world assumption to cover a myriad of sins. Witness the response just recently to the photo of the starving African kids.

How come the just world assumption doesn't apply to abortions? How convenient, and still inconsistent.

sugarkang 11-19-2011 08:16 AM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 232067)
Before we agree, I am asking you what you mean (or what you think of when other people say, whatever you like) by "female roles"

I thought stay-at-home dad was all encompassing. These days, men do some percentage of what the stay-at-home dad does, from a little to a lot. There was a time when men didn't do any of it. Am I saying something controversial?

Thanks, Feminism!

Ocean 11-19-2011 09:50 AM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 232161)
I thought stay-at-home dad was all encompassing. These days, men do some percentage of what the stay-at-home dad does, from a little to a lot. There was a time when men didn't do any of it. Am I saying something controversial?

Thanks, Feminism!

Are men and women's bodies different from each other? I say "yes".

Do men's bodies tend to be larger, more muscular and therefore more apt for physical prowess such as some athletics? I say "yes" (for many athletic activities but not all).

Are athletic competitions only beneficial for men? I say "no".

Should women have an opportunity to compete in athletics? I say "yes".

Considering the differences between men and women's bodies, should women compete in a class of their own for those athletics that depend on gender-related body differences? I say "yes".

What the heck are those schools in Massachusetts doing?

As to male-female roles in other areas of life, I don't think that there's an exact overlap. There's some flexibility in terms of adapting to non-traditional roles, and of course, some of those roles are purely determined by culture, and therefore modifiable, but I agree that they are not identical for the vast majority of people.

But before blaming feminists, I would question whether there is indeed, currently, any significant group of feminists who advocate for identical roles in all areas of life. I certainly don't. I just think people should be given the opportunity to participate in whatever roles they like and are apt for.

miceelf 11-19-2011 09:58 AM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 232161)
I thought stay-at-home dad was all encompassing. These days, men do some percentage of what the stay-at-home dad does, from a little to a lot. There was a time when men didn't do any of it. Am I saying something controversial?

Not especially. I just wanted to be sure I understood. Thanks. So one way that men have been feminized is that they are more likely these days to do child care at home.

The stay at home dad thing is interesting. Where I grew up, 40 years ago, a lot of men in my area were stay at home dads. My dad was one of them.
He provided a LOT of the child care when I was growing up. He didn't work outside the home. He was a farmer, which wasn't a money making proposition even back then. I'd sit on the tractor's mud guard beside him while he plowed fields, trundle along behind him while he herded cattle and sit in a safe spot in the barn nearby him while he milked. He spent most of his day providing child care, now that I think about it. (my mom worked part time to actually bring in an income; she was also the primary "child care" person for my sister- they believed very strongly that boys should be outside and girls in the house, lest you think this was some mythical feminist utopia. I managed to get to college and not know how to boil water).

But the notion that men stayed (and worked at home) was the norm back there. And not just the farmers, either. Guys brought their kids with them on the boats, and into the woods.

That was also, apparently, how my grandfather did things, and his father, and his father. On their side of the family, that basic pattern of family extended back at least to the 1700s when my forebears came over a boat from Yorkshire. I realize not everyone has a rural existence and I am kind of an anachronism. But I suspect that the nuclear family model, where dad goes off to the office and mother stays home and takes care of children, didn't describe the majority of families until the last 100 years or so. And for rural families, it didn't until much more recently. I would also point out that America used to be much more rural than it is now.

stephanie 11-19-2011 07:53 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 232169)
That was also, apparently, how my grandfather did things, and his father, and his father. On their side of the family, that basic pattern of family extended back at least to the 1700s when my forebears came over a boat from Yorkshire. I realize not everyone has a rural existence and I am kind of an anachronism. But I suspect that the nuclear family model, where dad goes off to the office and mother stays home and takes care of children, didn't describe the majority of families until the last 100 years or so. And for rural families, it didn't until much more recently. I would also point out that America used to be much more rural than it is now.

Yes -- this basically describes my own family through the childhood of both my parents (with a few quirks based on their individual families -- my dad's parents had a store, although he also spent some time with his grandparents on their farm). And my mother started working full time when I was 8 (my sister was 3), so I guess we skipped the traditional family as currently imagined stage.

miceelf 11-19-2011 08:35 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 232226)
Yes -- this basically describes my own family through the childhood of both my parents (with a few quirks based on their individual families -- my dad's parents had a store, although he also spent some time with his grandparents on their farm). And my mother started working full time when I was 8 (my sister was 3), so I guess we skipped the traditional family as currently imagined stage.

and to be clear I am not disputing that there are things that are commonly considered feminine or masculine. I just think it's more accurate to say that their definitions have changed over time than to say that one group or other has become more or less masculine or feminine.

Wonderment 11-19-2011 11:06 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

I'm not so sure. Do I think Romney wants Roe overturned as opposed to just focusing on the edges? Or most of the elite Republicans, the business interests, etc.? Of course not. It would quite possibly hurt the Republican coalition more than the Dems at this point, and definitely cause a major shakeup and tension between the wings of the party.
Here is what I mean by the kind of non-starter BS being spewed by Republicans completely detached from reality:
Quote:

To limit abortion, former House speaker Newt Gingrich, one of the leading candidates in polls here, proposed a federal law defining “personhood” as starting at conception, similar to a provision backed by abortion opponents that was rejected earlier this month by voters in Mississippi. Texas Gov. Rick Perry said he supported provisions that would limit the ability of gay couples to adopt children....
Notably, Romney and Huntsman skipped this event (and this state).

sugarkang 11-20-2011 04:36 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 232168)
Are men and women's bodies different from each other? I say "yes".

Do men's bodies tend to be larger, more muscular and therefore more apt for physical prowess such as some athletics? I say "yes" (for many athletic activities but not all).

Are athletic competitions only beneficial for men? I say "no".

Should women have an opportunity to compete in athletics? I say "yes".

Considering the differences between men and women's bodies, should women compete in a class of their own for those athletics that depend on gender-related body differences? I say "yes".

What the heck are those schools in Massachusetts doing?

As to male-female roles in other areas of life, I don't think that there's an exact overlap. There's some flexibility in terms of adapting to non-traditional roles, and of course, some of those roles are purely determined by culture, and therefore modifiable, but I agree that they are not identical for the vast majority of people.

Just what exactly is the point of your ignore list, anyway?

Quote:

But before blaming feminists...
First of all, I consider myself a feminist and far more coherent and consistent than most. Second, I think it's important to accord blame to the parties deserving of it. If you don't think this was a direct consequence of first wave feminism, then you're absolutely kidding yourself. There were plenty of girls trying out for boys' high school programs to make a political point.

If one advocates a political position or a policy change that actually effects change, one should also be prepared to own up to its consequences.

sugarkang 11-20-2011 04:44 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 232169)
Not especially. I just wanted to be sure I understood. Thanks. So one way that men have been feminized is that they are more likely these days to do child care at home.

Yes, among other things. And please don't confuse that as the position that this is a "bad" thing. I merely recognize that the feminization of men has happened and is still ongoing. It is merely to acknowledge what Sulla was talking about. I am not asserting a particular set of values that one ought to follow.

Ocean 11-20-2011 05:27 PM

Re: Values Added: Rootin' Tootin' Edition (Amanda Marcotte & Erica Grieder)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 232294)
Just what exactly is the point of your ignore list, anyway?

It can train you to use self control. It's a great tool.

Quote:

First of all, I consider myself a feminist and far more coherent and consistent than most.
Good.

Quote:

Second, I think it's important to accord blame to the parties deserving of it. If you don't think this was a direct consequence of first wave feminism, then you're absolutely kidding yourself. There were plenty of girls trying out for boys' high school programs to make a political point.

If one advocates a political position or a policy change that actually effects change, one should also be prepared to own up to its consequences.
Yes, I agree with owning up to its unintended consequences.

I see these cultural changes and movements as processes that develop over time. Hopefully corrections continue to be made to come up with a better product.


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