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-   -   Working Blue (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=1910)

Bloggingheads 06-26-2008 10:00 PM

Working Blue
 

brucds 06-26-2008 10:18 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
Cyd Charisse violated the rule of 3.

brucds 06-26-2008 10:34 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
On Mickey's idiotic, potentially disastrous Obama VP fav, Ed Rendell, I think it's amazing that Hillary Clinton campaigned for weeks with a guy at her side who effusively praised Louis Farrakhan in his presence at an NOI mosgue, caught on a video tape, and nobody seems to even know about it, much less see it looped on cable. Remember Hillary hammering Obama with that "reject and denounce" bullshit re: Farrakhan ?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0...g_n_97784.html

uncle ebeneezer 06-26-2008 10:49 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
Bob, I was joking on the Ivory Tower remark. I agree with you that tennis and golf really aren't indicative of "elite" status nowadays, but that is just the kind of silly statement that I could see your Republican foes (Mickey) using against you to try to disprove your everyman persona. Golf courses and tennis courts are incredibly diverse nowadays and one could argue that they are even more so than basketball courts (which tend to be predominantly black) or soccer fields (Mexican & Latin American). Although i would venture to guess that if one looked at income levels, golf and tennis would still represent more economically prosperous participants than basketball or soccer.

Of course, had I been serious about the "ivory tower" thing then your rebuttal would be slightly off-topic. I was referring to how people would treat you based on being a FAN of golf and tennis, not playing them. And while I've seen great growth in diversity on the courts and link, thanks in no small measure to the successes of Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters, I still find that hardcore fans of both sports (The kind of people who get up in the morning to watch wimbledon or early rounds of major golf tourneys) that I come into contact with still tend to be largely White, and always of a high income level. And since you had never mentioned being a FAN of basketball or baseball etc., but then you mentioned both tennis and golf, well...

PS is there any footage out there of Bob/Mickey running ball back in the day? Who knew.

InJapan 06-26-2008 11:12 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
The combination of orange Bob and cyan Mickey I find particularly disturbing. This is like looking at an old color photo negative.

Mean Dean 06-26-2008 11:54 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
I was trying to notice whether Mickey's pupils were indeed successfully dilated.

I think I can see it.

Gadsden 06-26-2008 11:55 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
Bob's position on torture seems contradictory. On one hand, he says that the criteria for whether torture is justified should be laid out clearly in advance, and not justified by hindsight results. On the other hand, he think that the law should allow no exceptions and that the president should be personally responsible for justifying exceptions to the no torture policy. It's hard to think of a more results-oriented, hindsight-driven policy approach.

jdpeace 06-27-2008 12:03 AM

Re: Working Blue
 
Hey guys. Quick fact-check. The Ivies don't have athletic scholarships, so Bradley didn't get into Princeton on one.

bjkeefe 06-27-2008 12:12 AM

Re: Working Blue
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jdpeace (Post 81399)
Hey guys. Quick fact-check. The Ivies don't have athletic scholarships, so Bradley didn't get into Princeton on one.

I'm surprised Mickey didn't claim Bradley's Rhodes Scholarship was an athletic one, too.

bjkeefe 06-27-2008 12:16 AM

Shoutout to Bob ...
 
... for calling Mickey on his innuendo posts.

Maybe it won't do much good, but it's good to hold him to account, nonetheless.

As for Mickey's lame defense ("I thought it was interesting ... I haven't decided ... let my readers decide for themselves ..."), I ask: how many times has he attempted to plant similar seeds of FUD about John McCain?

Wonderment 06-27-2008 12:26 AM

The Zinni Thing
 
Down for the Zinni thing?

Zinni has some credibility because he was against the war and because he's not an imbecile on global warming, but do we really want a Republican general in the Cheney slot?

Zinni, like Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al has cashed in bigtime with defense contrators.

Zinni joined M.I.C. Industries as its president for International Operations in 2005.

Zinni also serves on the advisory boards of eight different companies, including the security testing firm, Mu Dynamics.

From Zinni's Wikipedia entry:

Quote:

In 2004, Zinni was singled out by The New York Times investigative reporter Diana Henriques for serving on First Command's board of advisors. Henriques alleged that First Command used its military connections "to lend credibility to their sales efforts". First Command defended its affiliation before the U.S. House of Representatives stating, "It would be unfortunate if anyone inferred that these honorable individuals would take any action or support any organization that did not act in the best interests of service members." The SEC and NASD concluded that First Command willfully violated the Securities Act of 1933 Section 17(a)(2) dealing with inter-state fraud. First Command settled without admitting guilt.
Of course, since Mickey thinks Zinni is "a great guy" who wants his children to learn foreign languages, we can ignore the sleazy get-rich-quick factor and refrain from making up sex stories about Zinni, as Mickey has done with John Edwards, Bill Richardson and Ed Rendell.

But Obama would do better to stick with civilians who are not on the military-industrial complex payroll. I think Edwards would be terrific. Mickey sliming him at every possible opportunity is unconscionable.

Wonderment 06-27-2008 12:53 AM

Torture
 
Quote:

Bob's position on torture seems contradictory. On one hand, he says that the criteria for whether torture is justified should be laid out clearly in advance, and not justified by hindsight results. On the other hand, he think that the law should allow no exceptions and that the president should be personally responsible for justifying exceptions to the no torture policy.
Bob's view is that torture should never be legal, and that includes waterboarding and the other "enhanced interrogation techinques" authorized by Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld, Cheney and others.

Crystal clear and not contradictory.

He is saying that the president should be prosecuted for violating that law if s/he orders torture, but that a jury might be persuaded not to convict if the torture appears somehow justified when all the evidence is in and the arguments made.

Bob is simply saying that in a ticking-bomb scenario, the jury would nullify the law and acquit.

graz 06-27-2008 12:55 AM

Barak/Tony : Say No to that Baloney
 
Wonderment:

Thanks for the due diligence on Zinni. Bob sure didn't seem to have his head in the game today. He gave Mickey every chance to put his foot in his mouth. Somehow Mickey didn't fail:http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/122...5&out=00:20:17... Please Mickey finish the thought. "I don't think doubling down on African Americans is ________?"

StillmanThomas 06-27-2008 01:01 AM

Mickey commits seppuku
 
At long last, Mickey agrees with my vicious, curmudgeonly criticism of him. I feel so vindicated!

Wonderment 06-27-2008 01:09 AM

Re: Shoutout to Bob ...
 
The Johannson and Million Man March innuendos are just more attempts by Mickey to undermine Obama by playing the race card.

There's nothing there in either case, and Mickey knows it.

The Million Man March won't be enough to revive the dead-and-buried Farrakhan connection, nor will a couple of emails be enough to cast Scarlet effectively in the role of Hollywood elitist liberal and sultry miscegenistic blonde.

graz 06-27-2008 01:17 AM

Re: Shoutout to Bob ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 81407)
The Johannson and Million Man March innuendos are just more attempts by Mickey to undermine Obama by playing the race card.

There's nothing there in either case, and Mickey knows it.

The Million Man March won't be enough to revive the dead-and-buried Farrakhan connection, nor will a couple of emails be enough to cast Scarlet effectively in the role of Hollywood elitist liberal and sultry miscegenistic blonde.

Maybe we are giving him too much credit and not evaluating him on his own terms:http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/122...8&out=00:27:39

Eastwest 06-27-2008 01:39 AM

Tedious Beyond Belief
 
This has got to be the most boring Wright-Kaus DV ever.

But at least I now get why this site has its ghastly-green color scheme: BW was reminiscing about some golf course (or maybe pea soup) when choosing from designer options.

Warning: Never watch these things. Make sure you're at least doing something useful (like washing dishes), otherwise, post-DV, it will feel like a wasted hour.

EW

bjkeefe 06-27-2008 01:47 AM

Re: Shoutout to Bob ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 81408)
Maybe we are giving him too much credit and not evaluating him on his own terms:http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/122...8&out=00:27:39

So the best defense for Mickey against charges of being a sleaze is to argue that he's another kind of sleaze?

graz 06-27-2008 01:52 AM

Re: Shoutout to Bob ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 81410)
So the best defense for Mickey against charges of being a sleaze is to argue that he's another kind of sleaze?

Yes as his counsel, I am sorry to admit that his best defense is either pathetic or disingenuous.

P.S. I am currently listening to today's testimony by Yoo and Addington, perhaps that influenced my answer.

bjkeefe 06-27-2008 03:03 AM

Trivia Update
 
It's entirely understandable why this 24 June story didn't make the cut, given the importance of the Scarlett Johansson email crisis and the ongoing obsession with the veepstakes, but I wouldn't have minded hearing it mentioned: Government Study Criticizes Bush Administration’s Measures of Progress in Iraq.

The author of the article, James Glanz, the NYT's Baghdad bureau chief, also appeared on Fresh Air yesterday, where he expanded upon some of the points addressed in his article. Well worth a listen.

Jargon watch: Writing in a letter disputing the GAO's report, as noted in the article, the acting deputy assistant secretary of defense for the Middle East says that the Pentagon ...

Quote:

... “nonconcurs” with the conclusion that a new strategy for stabilizing Iraq was needed.
I don't know which is more hilarious, his jargon or his job title.

Wonderment 06-27-2008 03:49 AM

Re: Trivia Update
 
“nonconcurs”

That is truly non-unamazing.

I'm looking anti-backward to unignoring the report.

jdpeace 06-27-2008 09:44 AM

Re: Working Blue
 
A good Slate piece on Bradley's SATs and what to take away from the test in general.

http://www.slate.com/id/73787/

Points out that while Bush stayed mired as a C-student through his college career, Bradley overcame some early freshman struggles to graduate with honors and (as a another commenter pointed out) win a Rhodes Scholarship, where his ability to play basketball would not have come so much in handy.

osmium 06-27-2008 09:56 AM

Re: Marshall/Limbaugh
 
rush limbaugh balanced by josh marshall? a testament to the might of josh marshall or an insulting equivalence? oh no.

harkin 06-27-2008 10:49 AM

Re: Working Blue
 
Bob's and Carlin's 'C' words are different, Bob's is 'Coulter'.

As much as I liked and laughed at Carlin in my lifetime, I also recognize that he sometimes pandered to racism (whites and the Blues) and fear of 'the man' (his cop-out on the 9/11 truthers, give me Penn & Teller any day).

He was no Lenny Bruce.

Baltimoron 06-27-2008 10:56 AM

Different Vibe
 
Lord Baltimore?

I don't bow to no lord, especially no Catholic Tory Englishman!

harkin 06-27-2008 11:25 AM

Re: Different Vibe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 81421)
Lord Baltimore?

I don't bow to no lord, especially no Catholic Tory Englishman!

Instead of the founder of Maryland, I prefer the Indian tracker.

Mean Dean 06-27-2008 11:37 AM

Re: The Zinni Thing
 
If you want a general, how is Zinni a better option than Wes Clark? Clark is:

- An actual Democrat
- Better known
- Has been through a presidential campaign already; has talked a lot on TV and in political settings; generally more experienced politically (compared to a total neophyte, anyway)
- Was also against the war
- As a very loyal Clintonista, would help win over the holdouts
- Since he's staked out liberal positions on social issues and doesn't have a "tough guy" personality, wouldn't make Obama look like a wimp who needed a manly man beside him

Literally the only advantage I see for Zinni is that he has connections to the swing states Pennsylvania and Virginia, which I honestly think makes very close to zero difference (and which neither Bob nor Mickey mentioned.) Well, I think Clark was against the surge while Zinni was not, but I think only Mickey would see that as a significant advantage for Zinni.

Edwards would be the safest choice, since everyone already knows him and polls show he'd help the ticket substantially. These are your two best candidates, I think.

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 06-27-2008 12:41 PM

Mr. Kaus wrong on Muhammad Ali
 
Muhammad Ali did apply for conscientious objector status. He was turned down by the local draft board and state appeal board. After a long investigation and hearing, the Department of Justice hearing officer recommended that Ali be granted c.o. status. The Department of Justice, without giving any real justification overruled the hearing officer and denied c.o. status. As we all know the case went all the way to the Supreme Court where Ali prevailed 8-0.

http://abunooralirlandee.wordpress.com

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 06-27-2008 01:14 PM

Re: Mr. Kaus wrong on Muhammad Ali
 
I would also like to preemptively come clean and admit, that I also attended the Million Man March and I'm not an African American Politician, so I don't really have a good excuse. Also, as an Orthodox Sunni Muslim, but I have serious problems with Minister Farrakhan on some theological issues. Still, I attended. (I did happen to be attending Georgetown Law School at the time so I was able to just walk a few blocks after class -- I didn't have to take a long bus trip or anything).

I found Mr. Kaus' whole explanation of this post to be completely disingenuous. Who, exactly does Mr. Kaus think is the type of person who would initially have a problem with someone attending the Million Man March, but would then think it was okay because Spike Lee made a movie about it? I would almost argue that throwing Spike Lee's name into it seems basically designed to compound whatever stigma attending the Million Man March would have on Obama.

http://abunooralirlandee.wordpress.com

TwinSwords 06-27-2008 02:31 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 81420)
As much as I liked and laughed at Carlin in my lifetime, I also recognize that he sometimes pandered to racism (whites and the Blues)

Carlin did not pander to racism. I've been listening his routines for 30 years, and have never heard him utter a word that could even remotely be construed as racist. Carlin grew up in Manhattan and, as a teenager, attended high school in Harlem. From the earliest age, he was surrounded by and friends with people of all races; like most people who grow in cities, Carlin loved all people and reveled in the diversity he saw all around him.

I suspect what you are really trying to pull here is the old Republican "reverse racism" canard, which is essentially a repackaging of the KKK's cry of "race traitor." Is that what you're saying? That Carlin pandered to anti-white racism?

I would guess so, since you cited this "anti-white" routine.



Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 81420)
[Carlin] sometimes pandered to [...] fear of 'the man' (his cop-out on the 9/11 truthers

Carlin never pandered to fear of anyone or anything; he was fearless. And you're so vague that it's impossible for anyone to know what you are talking about with reference to a "cop-out" on 9/11. I suppose you mean his non-committal "I always question the received reality; the consensus reality is often intentionally misleading," and "it's just speculation."




Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 81420)
He was no Lenny Bruce.

You're right. He far surpassed Lenny Bruce. George Carlin is to Lenny Bruce as Nolan Ryan is to Denny McLain.

TwinSwords 06-27-2008 02:34 PM

Re: Mr. Kaus wrong on Muhammad Ali
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu Noor Al-Irlandee (Post 81431)
I would also like to preemptively come clean and admit, that I also attended the Million Man March and I'm not an African American Politician, so I don't really have a good excuse.

Come clean? Admit? Good excuse?

Are these just figures of speech? Or do you really believe that attending the MMM is something you need an excuse for?

It's just sad that there would be ANY potential to smear someone simply because they attended that harmless event.

Happy Hominid 06-27-2008 03:02 PM

Mickey's Pizza
 
I have to admit, he made me laugh with his "hand cover". Not so much though with what he had to say about torture. I agree with Bob that his answer was squishy. I outdid Bob by playing basketball until I was 50. And then it wasn't the knees, which I've still never had problems with, but my back. Evolution. What are you going to do? Gore would be a great choice as VP, on many levels. Robert Klein in Underworld - absolutely. Being white trash, I'm going to go have a bananana for breakfast. "The sensibility is a little trashy". What happened to the "most intelligent comments section"? Who took my bananana?

uncle ebeneezer 06-27-2008 03:17 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
If you loved Carlin & Bruce, check out Bill Hicks. He combined Carlin's humor with Bruce's social commentary in a way that was, IMO, greater than the sum of the parts. He was calling out the evils of the GOP (at the top of his lungs) back during the Reagan years, and yet doing it in a very funny way.

LordBaltimore 06-27-2008 03:18 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
Wow, I'm honored. I can now add a mention in the comments segment from Bob to my earlier mention from Mickey, so my life clearly has value.

I guess I didn't make my argument clear, though I understand Mickey's objection. Briefly, I was saying that benefits I may receive in the future constitute a potential future gain, while taxes taken out of my pocket now constitute a present loss. So for two reasons: (1) people attach more importance to short-term effects than long-term ones and (2) people are more strongly motivated to avoid a loss than they are to pursue an equivalent gain, denying future benefits would seem a better political strategy than raising current taxes.

Mickey's argument would seem to be that Social Security is such a well-established program that people already regard those future benefits as something which in some sense they already have, so taking them away would also be regarded as a loss. That's a good point, and I'll even add in support of Mickey's thesis that the program is sold as a sort of insurance policy (even though that's bunk), so people may tend to think of those future benefits as something they've already bought and paid for, hence something they already have. But I would still argue that of the two options, raising taxes is more unequivocably in the category of a present loss than is cutting future benefits.

Anyway, what I was mainly trying to do was encourage Bob to give us more evolutionary psychology books, interviews, articles, etc., by tweaking him with a comment. Am I right in thinking that lots of other commenters would like to see that as well? If so, let's see if we can get some sort of groundswell going.

Sgt Schultz 06-27-2008 03:33 PM

Re: Waterboarding
 
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/122...5&out=00:42:51
Yes of course.
Who wouldn't be eager to place his life in the hands of this jurist?
Humans are evolved creatures. It's been eons since a human's emotions overrode intellect.
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/122...7&out=00:24:17
And he's less hysterical than at least seven dozen people I'm personally acquainted with.
Anyway, luckily this nation is chock full of super hero types who actually would let hollow men place them in jail.

Sacrifice.
How noble of Bob to arrange a sacrificial moment for our CiC.
Look at the selfless types who are drawn to Presidential campaigning.
Does anyone doubt Clinton would have risen to the challenge of selflessness Bob would like to imagine having orchestrated for him?
And Obama!
The man is a Gibraltar, Steadfastness itself quivers when Obama and his prized "EveryBodyElseButMeUnderThe" Magic Bus enter the arena.

Bob's ideas are going to save the universe.

ed fielding 06-27-2008 04:03 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
I find it noteworthy I found so much satisfaction in your extended arguments around torture.
I conclude it’s important to talk about torture a lot more. More people need to be clear about it. You assist by trading Devil’s advocate back and forth, making explicit conservative(?) assertions in order to skewer them. As I said, I found it intriguingly satisfying.
As far as I’m concerned everyone could devote ten minutes of their divilogs to arguing about torture.
Of course the best all-time Torture Moment was when Jane Hamsher (she is always great) making a face at Erick Erickson’s stupid and immoral brush-off of torture. (April 15) Oh, and then going on to mention his wife’s Bible Study group.
So anyway, good; and thanks.

TwinSwords 06-27-2008 04:03 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBaltimore (Post 81439)
I'll even add in support of Mickey's thesis that the program is sold as a sort of insurance policy (even though that's bunk).

Why is that bunk? The insurance aspect of Social Security is one of the most important, and one that Republicans are eager to overlook and ignore when they talk about privitization schemes that don't include the insurance component.

One of my oldest and dearest friends lost his mother, the family's breadwinner, when he was 7 years old. His father was a permanently disabled Korean War vet who never earned a penny of income after the war. It was Social Security insurance and veteran's disability ("cradle to grave socialism," in the conservative vernacular) that put food on their table, clothes on his back, and kept the lights burning in their home.

This "socialism" is what allowed my friend to have as normal a life as possible under the circumstances, growing up in a decent suburban community and attending quality public schools, which prepared him to get into college. Today he's a highly successful computer scientist for a major corporation, and has paid back a lot more in taxes than his family ever took out when he was a child. Social Security is a sound investment in the welfare of the American people, and therefore a leading target for Republicans and social Darwinists.

While food, clothes and education for the indigent enrage Republicans, I'd rather have my taxes help families like Jimmy's than line the pockets of Halliburton or pay for the slaughter of a million innocent people in Iraq.

Priorities, I guess.

PandoraHope 06-27-2008 04:04 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
I'm amazed. Robert Wright wants to supress information. Obama went on the march. Will he never stand up for what he believes in? Either he is glad he went on the march or he now regrets it. About both which positions it would be interesting to hear Obama's rationale.

What is also interesting is that Robert seems to think he has got himself a cut glass candidate.

TwinSwords 06-27-2008 04:09 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ed fielding (Post 81442)
Of course the best all-time Torture Moment was when Jane Hamsher (she is always great) making a face at Erick Erickson’s stupid and immoral brush-off of torture. (April 15) Oh, and then going on to mention his wife’s Bible Study group.

Isn't that something? It constantly amazes me that people whose entire outlook on life is based on hatred, torture advocacy, and murder fantasy go around preening as "values voters," "Christians" and "pro-life." Good on you for calling them out on this grotesque contradiction.

Erick Erickson: He's the class act who called Cindy Sheehan a whore.

ohcomeon 06-27-2008 04:21 PM

Re: Working Blue
 
Great post. These socialist programs saved my family many times during the depression and dust bowl days in Oklahoma. Then, my parents went to college and graduate school funded by socialist grants and the Great Society programs. That allowed them to pay for my college education from their own savings. In two short generations we went from dirt farmers to a family full of graduate degrees who pay more than our share of taxes, Social Security and otherwise. We never complain because we remember how we got here.
Now my brother's wife has cancer and needs a transplant. Fortunately, he is in the Air Force so the taxpayers are paying for everything and she has a real chance. The doctors told us point blank that most people in the private sector could never afford this operation or the medicine she will need for the rest of her life. Government assured health care is wonderful.


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