Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Wright's "Above all, don't do anything" strategy against Islamic terrorism seems to have been cribbed from Pakistan's military and intelligence community--or has he, perhaps, served them as some sort of consultant? Either way, it doesn't seem to have worked: Pakistan has for several years been experiencing a pretty much uninterrupted crescendo of terrorist violence, despite the fact that the state responds to it unenthusiastically and belatedly, and where at all possible looks intently in the opposite direction (Wright loves this sly manoeuvre).

Far from discouraging the Pakistani Taliban, though, it seems that this subtle policy feeds their frenzy: they assume Allah has befuddled and enervated their enemies--proof that he has guaranteed them victory.

I think that perceived inaction on our part would have exactly the same result. The only way I can see to demonstrate to them that Allah isn't on their side is to destroy their organizations and balk their plans. Unless Muslims were to decide that we are stronger than Allah, the most obvious conclusion would be that he wasn't supporting terrorists. Even if the average recruit comes to Islam by the back door, and is looking as much for glory as for paradise, he is still asserting a specifically religious identity, and would be unlikely to seek glory in a foundering cause.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Pakistan is an obvious victim of the War on Terror strategy that Bush headed. It pushed militants and militancy from Afghanistan into a, relatively speaking, peaceful Pakistan.

As for Pakistan's own role in the war, they have lost 4000 men, lost 10,000 civilians, tens of thousands injured, and millions of displaced as refugees.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

chainlink,

The notion that Pakistan's military and intelligence strategy regarding terrorism has been "do nothing" is utterly bizarre. Pakistan's intelligence community has been deeply involved with militant groups, often supporting them and at other times, as opposable_crumbs points out fighting against them at great cost. About the only thing that it is false to say about the Pakistani approach is that it has been to "do nothing."

Atran's Lincoln 'Quotation'
 

"I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends." is categorized under 'Misattributed' by Wikiquote. Can Mr. Atran provide a credible source for the quotation?

Re: Atran's Lincoln 'Quotation'
 

Who cares? A political aphorism like this either makes sense and illustrates a truth about the world or it doesn't.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Great, fantastic, fascinating. The U.S. leadership comes off as such idiots. There's hope, because idiocy doesn't have to continue forever. But also despair and disgust: my God, what have we done? The facts alone justify this diavlog. I had no idea the Taliban were ready to put Ben Laden on trial for the ship they blew up. Who was president then? Was it Clinton? Was he too busy trying to ward off the Republican attack machine to give it his serious consideration? And W.? Worst thing that ever happened to the United States of America. Makes Benedict Arnold look good. I hate the guy.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Considering the ISI's role in creating and running the Taliban as a strategic asset, it seems to me that pushing militants into Pakistan is exactly proper, even if the stakes become higher.

Of course, Pakistan as it has existed from 1980 to 2001 can't continue as it has while retaining nuclear weapons. Presenting it with the consequences of its choices seems like the best way to teach it to be a better actor.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Now this was a very interesting dv.

1) Author interview
2) Interview of independent academic, probably with tenure, who does his own research and is beholden to virtually no one
3) Important topic
4) Author not terribly widely known, not on the PBS author-interview circuit.
5) Voice almost certainly worthy of wider attention
6) This kind of dv would, in my opinion, likely win many new repeat visitors to the site, if only they can be wooed for the first time.

This is not intended to be a critical review of what Atran said here or of his book, which I would like to read. I read the Lawrence Wright book with "Inferno" in the title, which was OK. I am in no position to judge Atran's work or his prescriptions.

This is the kind of thing I, at least, would like to see much more of. Another good thing was the "pushback" Atran got from RW.

Highest rating. Two thumbs up.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

If the enemies of BHO were to learn of this poll... where young men in an Arab country want to be like BHO... then these enemies would publicize this poll result to create ill will towards BHO.

chamblee54

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Excellent discussion if somewhat demoralizing considering the course of events.

Scott Atran has an impressive resume. He worked with Margaret Meade (among other accomplished feats).

Encore!

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

What indication was there, exactly, that the Taliban would have given into some sort of sanctions regime? This war has shown that the Taliban subsists on the porous Pakistani border. It does this while subject to US attacks. It would have been in much better shape had it faced the same situation without US troops decimating them.

Between sympathetic Pashtuns and ISI elements, the Taliban could have sat in their lines across from the Northern Alliance until bin Laden died of kidney failure. It would have been a crystal clear example of an impotent superpower.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Don't know what planet you've been living on for the past five years if you think Paki hasn't done anything. It may not be as much as the US wanted, but it was more than enough to stir the hornets nest over there.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Great and surprising dv. Atran confirms everything a dear Muslim friend has been trying to tell me for years and in which I have been interested but highly skeptical. I think I owe my friend an apology.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

It is a shame how America's response to any perceived threat is pre-scripted by the militarist DNA that has evolved into our body politic. Even an enlightened and shrewd president who knew better would be forced to follow the script despite knowing that his actions would be counterproductive. If he didn't do so, he would lose all support, or perhaps succumb to impeachment or assassination.

The military industrial complex and the rich have won the battle for political supremacy in this country, for all the good it will do them when we go broke fighting their wars.

Could War on Afghanistan have been avoided?
 

What part surprised you? I thought the real bombshell (so to speak) was the suggestion that the whole war on Afghanistan could have been avoided, and might have been, had we had a smarter, less hysterical and inherently bellicose White House.

The comparison to Kennedy (a more cerebral person, a veteran of war and a better diplomat) during the Cuban Missile Crisis was interesting. I'm not sure Obama (who has claimed Afghanistan is the "right war" as opposed to wrong-war Iraq) was the hypothetical president Scott had in mind. OTOH, maybe he just meant a generic Dem. or Anybody-but-GWBush, including Bush the Elder.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

This isn't rational. History isn't a conspiracy. This has all happened before; and it happens for the same reason. It is contrary to the proper of order of things to allow foreigners to slaughter your people, and not subject them to the ultimate penalty.

Thus the Romans rightly cleansed the Mediterranean of pirates. We rightly did the same eighteen hundred years later. The Austrians were within their rights to demand the extradition of the Black Hand without condition. The United States was within its rights to violate Mexican borders in pursuit of Poncho Villa, and had they found him, would have been perfectly reasonable in hanging him.

This Internationalist Pacifism is like a religion. This idea of enemies as some sort of fair actors, whose violence against you is more like a political critique. You folks make category errors; you confuse all peoples with Western members of the academy.

Re: Could War on Afghanistan have been avoided?
 

You notice that no realistic explanation is given as to how. The Sudan actually is a more complicated and advanced state than the Taliban's Afghanistan circa 2001, as hard as that is to believe. It also had more connections to the Arab world. You don't just swap out "National Islamic Front" with "Taliban". They're different.

Also, Pakistan hasn't been able to close the Afghan border in a time of war. How exactly do you think they would manage that in a time of peace?

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

I wouldn't remotely go that far.

As Scott suggested, there were plenty of things Obama could have done without getting impeached, much less assassinated. He could have really shut down Gitmo as promised, could have held Bush government war criminals accountable for their crimes, and could have refrained from escalating Afghanistan, supporting Netanyahu, bombing Libya and droning at will in the rest of the world.

Perhaps taking unpopular contra-militarism measures would have cost him his majority in the House or his re-election in 2012. Oh wait a second: he lost the House in 2010 anyway and will probably lose the '12 election as well. Fat lot of good continuing Bush policies did him.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Why don't you take us through how he unilaterally could have shut Gitmo?

Oh wait, here's the answer:
Not anymore likely than your fantasy.

Re: Atran's Lincoln 'Quotation'
 

Good point. It is the kind of thing Lincoln would have said whether he actually said it or not. As a matter of fact he did say friendly things about the South in the course of the conflict -- among others that the people of the North would feel no differently about slavery than the people of the South if they were in their shoes. As President he also famously ordered "Dixie" to be played on a festive occasion during the war. It was a favorite tune of his.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

If it wasn't doable, he shouldn't have promised to do it.

"As President, I will close Guantánamo."

Barack Obama, August 2007

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

I guess aspirational only suits you when it's coming from the likes of Ron Paul. Unite!

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

It seems to me that he made a pretty credible effort toward that goal. It was New York Democrats who nailed that coffin shut.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

That coffin was always nailed shut. It was only those whose chose not to see reality who believed otherwise.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

As you well know, this has nothing to do with me or Ron Paul. Don't make it personal, and don't change the subject. Both tactics are weak.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

I beg to differ. Politics is personal. And I'm on point.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

So the Taliban doesn't give up bin Laden when it's merely the US demanding it, but when "the world" makes the demand -- minus the Islamic world one supposes -- that's quite different.

Really? The Taliban are swayed just by principle? Because the world WAS with America, we were dealing with the Taliban while the world was still saying "we are all Americans". And it WAS an international force that invaded Afghanistan, plenty of Le Monde readers on the battlefield.

Sanctions make the difference? Really? Sanctions don't even work against rich countries. Afghanistan has nothing to trade but opiates and rugs. And it borders Pakistan and Iran. Are those countries playing along?

Now President Atran has the US sitting on its thumbs waiting for sanctions to work, for how long exactly? With the hole still burning in Manhattan, while Belgians decide on the fate of its worst enemy. Really?

"The whole thing would have been gone pretty fast." Such certainty in the face of such a complex matter. It's something you only find in salespeople and pundits.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Amazing how any one could perceive a threat in what happened on 9/11 isn't it?

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Fascinating! I do hope the interesting Mr. Atran has many BHtv returns.

Having said that, I do hope regard for his assessments on the GWOT stays restricted to academia, BhTV-lefties, and other species in the leftist genus.

The life paths, motivations, and thought processes of suicide bombers are certainly interesting, without a doubt. I really enjoyed the anecdote of the grade school soccer players in the garbage dump who liked BHO even more then they did OBL.

However, these shed no light whatsoever on the motivations, thought processes, strategic plans, resources, operational capabilities, ongoing operations status, financiers, networks of logistics and communications, and any number of other important intelligence needed to assess and deal with an organization that had just used a few of the disturbed stooges that Mr. Atran so ably describes to kill 3000 American civilians, including bringing down the symbol and center of American commerce, and exploding the very headquarters of the US military.

The fascinating information that Mr. Atran provides here would have been even more strategically irrelevant on 9/12/2001 then it is now, 10 years after the fact.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

But that's not really responsive to the comment, which seemed to be about the nature of the response, not about whether a there was a threat to respond to. And, cripes, better analysis of the actual threat and a bit less mendacity in regard to structuring the response wouldn' have too much to ask for, I think.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

Would you care to provide an argument supporting that?

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

A detailed and thoughtful, comprehensive analysis of why young Muslim men are radicalised.

However, I have to take issue with Sccott when he so glibly talks of >taking out< leaders of Islamic Jihad without due process of law and without their Amendment rights. This has spoiled for me an accurate, searching analysis of why young Muslim men turn through misplaced emotions, alliances and affiliations to violence.

This undemocratic and ruthlessly pro-Christian approach would lead to further radicalisation and hatred of the major terrorist - America.

I direct you to the work of Robert Lambert OBE in his study of Islamophobia in Arches (London: The Cordoba Foundation Vol 4 2011 isbn 1756-7335).

Re: Atran's Lincoln 'Quotation'
 

Yes, upon reflection it was quite fussy of me to bring up The Truth. Very uptight on my part.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

This is certainly true. No one is opposed to better analysis and less mendacity.

The quality of any analysis can only be assessed in light of the information available at time the analysis took place.

Mendacity is inherent in the politics necessary to achieve a response in a democracy. At its most acceptable level, as an overemphasis on one particular view of a situation which, in itself, easily lends itself to a variety of views. Such mendacity in the means is usually based on a sincere (even if necessarily, biased) analysis of the problem and its solutions. And the mendacity becomes acceptable, perhaps even celebrated, to the degree that it is perceived that the problem was solved with efficiency and little cost relative to the benefits.

But less mendacity in politics would be nice, I agree. Especially for those over on the other side of the aisle.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

We're talking mega-mendacity in the Bush administration lead-up to the Iraq invasion and occupation, which was a direct result of the 9/11 hysteria Scott discusses. Here is a good listing of the major lies. What is most striking and scary is that all the liars were on robotic message: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice.*

These lies led to unspeakable horror and the death (i.e., murder, if you believe, as I do, that the war was a criminal endeavor) of at least 100,000 persons.

In short, you can claim that all politicians lie, and I won't argue with you, but lying in order to wage war is qualitatively far worse than "ordinary" political fibbing.

* Do I think that Bush and company actually believed their own lies? In other words, were they more deluded than deliberately mendacious? Tough call. At the end of the day, Bush-Cheney's psychology and motivations are a mystery. The decision to wage war on Iraq was so monstrously stupid as to remain forever incomprehensible.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

The problem I have with this argument is that the information available at the time didn't support the conclusion that nukes were an issue. The "mendacity" was in regard to claiming evidence for an extant nuclear program that not only didn't exist, but the claimed evidence didn't exist. Despite dark mutterings about "mushroom clouds" there wasn't anything supporting the idea that Saddam had a nuclear program. Saddam's chemical weapons didn't pose any sort of intercontinental threat and there wasn't much support for the belief that he had dangerously weaponized biologicals. But even so, the case they claimed to have was clearly about nukes, and they had nothing but innuendo and suspicion. Not only that, but they picked a foght with the only member of the so-called "Axis of Evil" that didn't have a nuclear program. It was incompetent and mendacious. And ultimately their actions strengthened Iran who was always a worse threat than Saddam, and gave the Norks a pass while they built their own program.

We're not discussing simple politics, or relatively simple, garden variety mistakes here. They lied their way into a hugely expensive strategic disaster that hurt us domestically and changed the strategic landscape for the worse.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

The question here is whether or not the problem was approached in an efficient and economical way. It would seem, to those who opposed the invasion of Afghanistan, and perhaps to others, with hindsight, that the US response amounted to little more than cutting off yer nose to spite yer face. In which case the mendacity was turned inward.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

I agree that is the question. I also agree, at this point, with the assessment you present.

The situation is still developing though, and while I have some difficulty imagining an unambiguous outcome that will justify the costs of our response to 9/11, I keep an open mind because I'd like it to be otherwise then the way I see it.

Re: Lessons Learned: The Creation of Terrorists (Robert Wright & Scott Atran)
 

A person will believe this to the degree that they think war is always the worse possible response to any situation. I disagree with that, sometimes its the best response.


I don't think your position on this is unreasonable. But I do completely disagree. My easy comprehension of the decision and acceptance of the stated motivations of the actors does not mitigate, for me, any stupidity or bad consequences of the action.