Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Yes! Thank you....
 

I am a lapsed Presbyterian with no special interest in un-lapsing. If I did, I'd want Pastor Sweringen for my minister. I will remember the quote from Acts: Don't call unclean what I call clean.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

If they are not going to take serious the sacred text of the Christian faith, then why are you going through the exercise of calling yourself Christian? Why not call it all a myth and be on your way?

Liberal churches are dying across the US and Europe. More and more people think, "We don't believe and neither do the clergy. Why bother?" Good question.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

They do take it seriously, just not literally. And how that is possible? Ask Augustine.

No, liberal churches are dying, because adherents are generally prosperous, and prosperity correlates with secularization, whereas fundamentalist churches (generally) hoard the poor, uneducated and easy to command.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

For the community. Kierkegaard would've hated it, but I think it can still be meaningful.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

In Europe, they're often the official church of the state, which has its own set of issues. In America, apple is largely correct.

The liberal church I attend (church, not denomination) has about doubled in size in the four years I have been attending. It's been a huge problem in the vestry figuring out how to accomodate the much larger numbers in worship and still retain our own character.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

I don't accept the premise that they don't take the text seriously.

Nor do I accept the premise that Christians who are more "liberal" than you prefer on certain things (the term "liberal" gets applied in a way that often makes little sense to religion) don't believe.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Wow. It is sad how humans make up stories to try to explain and shape the world into a better place, then end up fighting viciously over the various versions of the story. How much better it would be to focus on the point of making a world that works for everyone and drop the reliance on the old tribal stories, or at least again relegate them to the private sphere where they can't do so much damage.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

I'm very curious where Christianity stands if you throw out the bible as a reliable source. What exactly are your beliefs based on, then? Can one just make up whatever morality makes sense to them, and call it "Christian"?

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

According to some here, Christianity has *never* taken the Bible literally.

I am not sure that's true, but I don't think most take it as a "reliable source" in the Howard Kurtz implication either.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Christianity has never taken the Bible literally in the fundamentalist "this is the correct way to understand all parts of the Bible" way. Even more significantly, there seems to be bizarre confusion between taking the Bible seriously and reading the Bible literally in all respects.

Of course, the issue with gay marriage and the Christian Scriptures is somewhat more complicated than that, because there's little about same-sex sex in the NT (one reference in Romans that is focused on something else and has to be seen in context). Indeed, the more traditional argument in Christianity about gay sex is not based on sola scriptura at all.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

You're so popular!

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

That's kind of what you're really left with...a morality that makes sense to you. But surely we all recognize that the bible has always been interpreted to mean lots of conflicting things.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Well, look at the big picture, my friend. Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc., and people from time immemorial don't seem to have had any greater difficulty creating highly developed moral systems or living moral lives without the Christian Bible. Why is it that this generation of people, with all its literacy and scientific understanding should bind itself to some book that arose out of a culture totally alien to ours? Imagine how silly that must look to an intelligent outsider.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

But those old tribal stories have wisdom and also tell the history of man's search for meaning. I agree, however, that fighting over various versions is pretty useless.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

????

That's bizarre. It's got nothing to do with me, and I didn't claim it did. I simply am giving an account of what I have witnessed, which goes against what someone else suggested.

Are you okay?

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Right, the anti-homosexuality thing has as much to do with Christ as genital mutilation has to do with the Koran, ie, nothing. People confuse religion with cultural tradition all the time, even when they are diametrically opposed. Why else would we still have capital punishment?

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

But certainly Christians are not the only ones. Jews do it, Buddhists do it, so do Muslims. It seems that an intelligent outsider would realize this is the way humans operate...seeking wisdom from the past.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

I'm trying to figure out how this relates to the diavlog, and not seeing it. The 'heads disagree with many Christians about the correct way to apply Christian teachings to the question of homosexuality, but they didn't seem to be "fighting viciously" at all.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Is this a random comment or directed at the diavlog? The 'heads did not suggest that they "throw out" the Bible.

I do think they could have talked somewhat more about the textual issues and how they approach them. I probably would have complained that they were going through stuff everyone knows, but that's probably my sheltered environment/wishful thinking, and I suppose it would have been useful.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

No one is arguing against seeking wisdom. I have a hard time finding wisdom in surrendering to dogma.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Because that's rational explanation of what human beings should do. Human beings are irrational beings and what really matters are social dynamics that are proven to work and preserve social order. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. How long has atheism been around? Atheists are assholes. I know this because I am one.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Well, that's how I derive my knowledge of Christians.

But it might be more accurate to say that atheists are LIKE assholes. Everybody needs one.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

At least since Lucretius, and the many other skeptics of antiquity. Also, every person who has ever lived, was born an atheist. But since atheism is not an ideology, but rather a lack of something, one can't really say that atheism "has been around".

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

In the West, it can be traced further, back to 5th century BC Greece, where the pre-Socratic philosophers actually thought about things rather than absorbing pre-oackaged stories. In India, atheism can be traced to the 6th century BC school of Cārvāka. In every age, everywhere, there have been people struggling against well-intentioned superstition, closed mindedness and intolerance. The trouble is, belief is easy, thinking and dialogue are hard.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

People have been picking and choosing the values and beliefs they wish to follow from the bible and religion in general for thousands of years. Show the me person that follows it all to the letter and I will show you a fool, a frightening fool at that.

Picking and choosing is less pure, but it lets me know one important thing about the person, they do not outsource ALL of their judgments about ethics and morality to a third party source like the bible. They are not ethical and moral slaves/serfs, unthinking automatons who genuflect on bended knee like dogs, submitting their entire life and sense of morality to the standards of ancient desert peoples.

This is a good thing. Personally I have removed the veneer of religion entirely, then I don't have to justify the picking and choosing, tie myself in knots to say I am following X teaching, my way is the cleaner way, but maybe the more dangerous. For some people, I think it's probably beneficial to have the ethical training wheels religion provides, so long as that religious teaching is benign.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

As the collective consciousness of a particular society, I mean. Yeah, Sweden looks great. Who doesn't love IKEA?

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Okay, why is atheism superior to religion? Any intolerant religious person that you point out, I can point out a tolerant religious person. I can easily point out atheists that are just as intolerant. And even if I grant you that God doesn't exist, what difference does it make if it results in people getting together once a week to think about why they're grateful for their lives?

Tony Blair vs. Christopher Hitchens

I'm an atheist, and I think Blair wins it.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Sweden isn't all that great. As a libertarian, you should know that. As for atheism being the collective consciousness of a particular society, I can't prove, but I'm sure that in pre-history, there have been mini-societies that did not have any idea of a "God". Surely, there was a time before the idea was invented. Also, Buddhism is non-theistic - it has no position on whether or not there is a god. So perhaps Buddhist societies were non-theistic, though I don't know enough to make a definite claim.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

There is more to atheism/religion being good/bad than tolerance. I'm not convinced that tolerance is a good thing. Like Thomas Mann said, tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. So we have to be careful what we tolerate.

Enlightened religion is not necessarily a bad thing. Believing in God, moral absolutes and reward and punishments after death is definitely a good thing. But there's not much that all the ridiculous creeds and rituals add to the good side of theism, and plenty that they add to the evil side.

If that is all there was to religion, nothing, but it isn't.

I'm not necessarily arguing that atheism is better (than enlightened religion). Atheism can lead to relativism. Many atheists are extremely irrational and stupid.

Re: Yes! Thank you....
 

Amen!! I'm a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, but if I was a believer Anna would be the type of person I would love to have inspire me. Thanks to both for a great diavlog. It was an excellent reminder that not all Christians fit the mold of the ones who usually holler the loudest. Keep up the good fight.

Incidentally, I just went to a gay wedding a couple weekends ago and it was awesome. It was wonderful to see too amazing people in love coming together in full view of their family and friends. Their gender was completely irrelevant when cast in the shadow of the brilliant light of their love.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Isn't it always strange that when theological liberals talk about God being bigger than we can imagine and "can't fit in a box", this god of theirs always agrees with them?

This god never judges sin. But this god really dislikes anything Marxists dislike.

This god never brings down wrath, strikes people dead, inflicts punishment, etc. No, this mysterious god is the god of unicorns and puppy dogs and love, love, lovey love.

Their god is an idol. One of their own making.

And I'm sorry. When I hear trained theologians make appeals to Levitical ceremonial laws (hey Christians eat shrimp), I am just floored at the ignorance, stupidity, or downright dishonesty. A trained theologian, even of the liberal variety, should know something about why Christians don't keep Levitical laws but still uphold a moral law of God. They even mentioned Acts 10!

Random commenters on the Internet who think they are actually posing a big dilemma when they pose that argument are one thing. These two are just sad.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Since Kierkegaard is one of my favorite writers, I'm wondering how you tie him to this.

I know he is often misunderstood with his 'leap of faith' concept, so I'm guessing you're suggesting these diavloggers really don't believe in Christianity but are only pretending to in order to help the community?

Or is it the liberal church of Kierkegaards era that you are associating with these people? If this is the case, Kierkegaard was in polemic against a completely different kind of liberalism. The liberalism of his day attempted to turn the Gospel into a metaphor for their dialectic philosophy. So it became irrelevant to them as to whether Jesus ever really existed in history or not. I think these two diavlogger, in talking about "God's Holy Word" and "the Holy Spirit" come across as having an orthodox understanding of the Gospel. They just differ with other Christians on the whether God will bless gay unions or not.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

This is really not in any way related to the diavlog, or for that matter, to theological liberalism.

There is plenty of sin in liberal theology. You may not like how it's defined, but it's there. And it's certainly not how you describe. Here is a confession, that is said as a group by Episcopaleans every sunday, from the Book of Common Prayer. I don't see any mention of Marx anywhere:

Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen.

And there's also the minor fact that Swerigen's god didn't "always agree with her." She explicitly discussed her prior misunderstandings and how she felt God led her to a better understanding.


The moral law of God, as understood by nearly all Christians. I guess I missed where they disputed it:


Mark 12: 30-31:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

I don't think it's my place to suggest that even if Kierkegaard might or might not have thought otherwise.

I'll have to defer to you on any specifics about religion and the history of Christianity as I am but a poor atheist.

It's been quite some years since I've had university lectures on Kierkegaard. I only remember that he despised church members for much of the same reason that atheists despise them, i.e., the self-congratulatory masturbation and rank hypocrisy. But Kierkegaard recognized this and still managed to get to his leap of faith and, thus, overcame my prime objection to religion.

But Kierkegaard's (attempted) validation of religion doesn't negate my belief in the absence of God. For that, one requires an atheist. I'm referring to Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil:

This quickly gets us beyond the scope of the original topic, but I only want to say that this casts doubt on the very basics of solipsism and Cartesian logic. That is, I can't really know anything for sure. And if I'm ever self-righteously indignant about something, in the case of morality, it's usually to point out that other people don't, either. :)

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

I humbly submit that among the "anything" one can't know for sure is the character and moral nature of people in various modes of anonymity that one encounters on an internet forum.

Just a thought.

:-)

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

If you're referring to the people, then I agree. We still have the validity of the arguments, however. Those can be judged and should be judged.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Atheism is also dogma. This is what I was trying to get at with my previous post.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

Oh, sure.

I don't always live up to this, but I tend to think of behavior as dramatically more context specific than most people do. I have known enough wonderful people IRL who had pretty horrible flaws in specific areas (I have been and may still be one of those people myself). I also know that kids can be complete angels at school and devils at home or vice versa.

So, even if someone tends to act like a complete douche in the only context I know them in (say, at work, or on the specific internet forum I am in, or at church, or whatever), it doesn't mean that they're not a wonderful spouse or parent or that they don't have a secret and rich inner life or that they won't throw themselves in front of a subway to save a stranger. This doesn't of course mean I have to interact with them any more than necessary, but does mitigate against the global statements about character.

It's also why I am more comfortable labeling ideas or behaviors as racist or bigoted or whathaveyou. I don't see this as an indication that the person displaying them is irredeemable or incapable of great good. They're engaging in a bad thing, but taht doesn't necessarily make them horrible people generally. I feel more comfortable labeling the behavior.

Like I said, that's my ideal and I certainly don't live up to it. But to the extent I do, it makes my life better.

Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)
 

I think we agree more than not.