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Bloggingheads 07-11-2010 03:01 PM

Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 

nikkibong 07-11-2010 03:07 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
The Palin obsession has got to stop.

Ocean 07-11-2010 03:15 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 169284)
The Palin obsession has got to stop.

Yes. Please forward to all the involved.

bjkeefe 07-11-2010 04:16 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 169284)
The Palin obsession has got to stop.

Awww ... can't we even talk about her new book project for kids?

Because I think Betty Cracker might have gotten an advance copy.

handle 07-11-2010 06:04 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 169284)
The Palin obsession has got to stop.

But it's brilliant from a partisan standpoint, the more attention she gets, the greater her likelyhood of going all rouge, and running against Obama, splintering off at least 20% of the GOP constituency. This "divide and conquer" strategy was instrumental in Bush Jr. taking the Presidency in 1999.
Advice for the right:
Run away, or find a way to shut her down.
Advice for the left:
Obsession is what made the right so freekin scary, and powerful. But keep it catty, and subtle, so your candidates can easily distance themselves.

kezboard 07-11-2010 06:35 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
I really don't care about Palin, but more Anthea please yes.

Ocean 07-11-2010 10:14 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
This is freaky.

Sarah and Anthea discussed the influence of religion on politics. Even if a fraction of what they described is true, religion in this country has turned into madness.

graz 07-11-2010 10:31 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 169320)
This is freaky.

Sarah and Anthea discussed the influence of religion on politics. Even if a fraction of what they described is true, religion in this country has turned into madness.

... With no apparent cure in sight.

AemJeff 07-11-2010 10:33 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 169320)
This is freaky.

Sarah and Anthea discussed the influence of religion on politics. Even if a fraction of what they described is true, religion in this country has turned into madness.

That has been happening for a long time. Pentecostals and crazy evangelicals have been getting stronger here for a long time. That should alarm every rational person in this country.

cognitive madisonian 07-11-2010 11:12 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 169322)
That has been happening for a long time. Pentecostals and crazy evangelicals have been getting stronger here for a long time. That should alarm every rational person in this country.

What exactly constitutes a 'crazy' evangelical and why should they and pentacostalists alarm rational people?

I agree with Nikkibong about Palin.

And I find Jeremiah Wright's brand of religion, along with its tacit and even explicit acceptance among many Obama supporters, to be far more alarming than pentacostalists.

Don Zeko 07-11-2010 11:15 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169326)
And I find Jeremiah Wright's brand of religion, along with its tacit and even explicit acceptance among many Obama supporters, to be far more alarming than pentacostalists.

Tacit and even explicit acceptance? Can we name some names before casting blanket aspersions?

cognitive madisonian 07-11-2010 11:24 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 169327)
Tacit and even explicit acceptance? Can we name some names before casting blanket aspersions?

Well, you can look at David Wright's appearance on Bill Moyers' show for the most explicit defense of Wright.

But you only have to consider that if a Republican was a long-time member of a church with such radical, racist views, that person would never get close to the nomination. And if they did, the mainstream media would relentlessly savage them. The very fact that liberals supported Barack Obama in spite of his longtime membership in Wright's hate church, and continued lies about what he knew and did not know of Wright's ideology. That is a tacit vote of legitimacy. I would never support a candidate who converted to Christianity under the guidance of an anti-semitic racist conspiracy nut.

bjkeefe 07-11-2010 11:25 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169326)
What exactly constitutes a 'crazy' evangelical and why should they and pentacostalists alarm rational people?

[...]

And I find Jeremiah Wright's brand of religion, along with its tacit and even explicit acceptance among many Obama supporters, to be far more alarming than pentacostalists.

So, basically, like it or not, you're on the same page as Jeff (and me, and not a few others) -- you strongly dislike religious influence on politics. You're just more sensitive to a different brand.

bjkeefe 07-11-2010 11:28 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169328)
But you only have to consider that if a Republican was a long-time member of a church with such radical, racist views, that person would never get close to the nomination. And if they did, the mainstream media would relentlessly savage them.

This is in the top 10 for all-time most comically lacking in awareness comments ever posted on this site. Or, perhaps, most tribalist.

Don't even try to deny it, don't even try to get me to explain further. Because if you do, you will have demonstrated yourself to be either insane or lying.

cognitive madisonian 07-11-2010 11:37 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 169332)
This is in the top 10 for all-time most comically lacking in awareness comments ever posted on this site. Or, perhaps, most tribalist.

Don't even try to deny it, don't even try to get me to explain further. Because if you do, you will have demonstrated yourself to be either insane or lying.

An argument without substance...

cognitive madisonian 07-11-2010 11:40 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 169330)
So, basically, like it or not, you're on the same page as Jeff (and me, and not a few others) -- you strongly dislike religious influence on politics. You're just more sensitive to a different brand.

I think that religion can have a very positive role on politics--I can't imagine that the civil rights movement wouldn't have succeeded when it did without the help of religious leaders (eg MLK). Religious leaders played a major role in the abolitionist movement, too. And the Catholic church did wonders in the fight against Communism in Eastern Europe, particularly Poland. Religion also had a democratizing presence in South Korea and other nations.

I dislike the type of religious influence that wants schools to teach creationism, and I'm not fond of the evangelical nanny state complex that some people have (Huckabee flirts with it).

AemJeff 07-11-2010 11:41 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169328)
Well, you can look at David Wright's appearance on Bill Moyers' show for the most explicit defense of Wright.

But you only have to consider that if a Republican was a long-time member of a church with such radical, racist views, that person would never get close to the nomination. And if they did, the mainstream media would relentlessly savage them. The very fact that liberals supported Barack Obama in spite of his longtime membership in Wright's hate church, and continued lies about what he knew and did not know of Wright's ideology. That is a tacit vote of legitimacy. I would never support a candidate who converted to Christianity under the guidance of an anti-semitic racist conspiracy nut.

I don't see Wright's views expressed in Obama's politics, so I don't give a crap about them. Also - Black Liberation Theology is a response to racism - calling it racism is a jerk-off white-guy thing to do. And, any white guy who complains that black people who feel persecuted in this country are "racists" is an asshole. Pardon me, but it's true.

"Crazy Pentecostal" is redundant. I'm tempted to say "Crazy fundamentalist" is, too - but I've met and can therefore view some fundamentalists as compartmentalizers who segregate the rational and religious parts of their psyches sufficiently not to be danger to themselves and others. But, as a general rule, anybody who believes the end-times are nigh is batshit. Anybody who believes they have a personal relationship with God is suspect.

bjkeefe 07-11-2010 11:41 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169335)
An argument without substance...

No, cog.mad. Forget it. I'm all too familiar with your habit of showing up on this site, looking to argue about the dumbest things imaginable. I have less than no interest in indulging you in your illness.

I see you quoted but did not read last line of my previous comment. Do that now.

cognitive madisonian 07-11-2010 11:43 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 169338)
No, cog.mad. Forget it. I'm all too familiar with your habit of showing up on this site, looking to argue about the dumbest things imaginable. I have less than no interest in indulging you in your illness.

I see you quoted but did not read last line of my previous comment. Do that now.

I think I'd prefer to stick to our other strand of dialogue...

bjkeefe 07-11-2010 11:44 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 169337)
I don't see Wright's views expressed in Obama's politics, so I don't give a crap about them. Also - Black Liberation Theology is a response to racism - calling it racism is a jerk-off white-guy thing to do. And, any white guy who complains that black people who feel persecuted in this country are "racists" is an asshole. Pardon me, but it's true.

Did you see what Roy Edroso said last week about people like cog. mad.?

Quote:

This "the real racists" bit never fails to remind me of Wile E. Coyote, hurtling into the canyon with a detached rock ledge in pursuit.

AemJeff 07-11-2010 11:49 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
:)

http://purpletigercreations.com/Port...oonWileRR5.jpg

cognitive madisonian 07-11-2010 11:49 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 169337)
I don't see Wright's views expressed in Obama's politics, so I don't give a crap about them.

So it is acceptable to belong to a hate church, convert under the guidance of a hate preacher, etc. so long as it does not show up in your politics? Don't pretend that this is the standard which you hold Republicans to.


Quote:

Also - Black Liberation Theology is a response to racism - calling it racism is a jerk-off white-guy thing to do.
So apparently only white people can be racists. Please don't resort to that ludicrous argument made by a few rather ignominious pseudo scholars that racism is a function of power and thus blacks can not be racist.

Racism is racism. It does not matter the color of the racist, what matters is the ideology. And Wright's brand of BLT is very clearly racist.\

But you seem to be confirming my point about the defense of Wright's odious beliefs.

Quote:

"Crazy Pentecostal" is redundant. I'm tempted to say "Crazy fundamentalist" is, too - but I've met and can therefore view some fundamentalists as compartmentalizers who segregate the rational and religious parts of their psyches sufficiently not to be danger to themselves and others. But, as a general rule, anybody who believes the end-times are nigh is batshit. Anybody who believes they have a personal relationship with God is suspect.
Ok, so the argument is actually that people with end-of-times beliefs are nutty. I won't reject that one. But how many evangelicals and pentacostals are actually 'end-of-times' people? The only systematic end-of-times group that I know of is the Jehovah's Witnesses.

As for the second point, I see nothing nutty about having a personal relationship with the metaphysical.

Wonderment 07-11-2010 11:49 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Anybody who believes they have a personal relationship with God is suspect.
That would include, of course, Barack and Michelle Obama, as well as Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton and all the other devout Christians in the current administration.

AemJeff 07-11-2010 11:50 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169343)
...


So apparently only white people can be racists. Please don't resort to that ludicrous argument made by a few rather ignominious pseudo scholars that racism is a function of power and thus blacks can not be racist.

Racism is racism. It does not matter the color of the racist, what matters is the ideology. And Wright's brand of BLT is very clearly racist.
...

At least we've established something concrete, here.

Wonderment 07-11-2010 11:53 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

So it is acceptable to belong to a hate church, convert under the guidance of a hate preacher, etc. so long as it does not show up in your politics? Don't pretend that this is the standard which you hold Republicans to.
I dispute that Wright is an anti-Semite, a "hate preacher" or whatever. But the key difference is that Republican political platforms ARE infused with religious beliefs: right to life, religious homophobia, etc. On the left, many churches, like the Catholic church, are anti-abortion and anti gay, but it doesn't infect the political agenda.

cognitive madisonian 07-11-2010 11:57 PM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 169346)
I dispute that Wright is an anti-Semite, a "hate preacher" or whatever. But the key difference is that Republican political platforms ARE infused with religious beliefs: right to life, religious homophobia, etc. On the left, many churches, like the Catholic church, are anti-abortion and anti gay, but it doesn't infect the political agenda.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-lo...,7603283.story

You can look at his various other inflammatory statements concerning Jews, too. Statements that "white Jews" are racists, that Israel is committing "genocide," his publishing of Hamas letters in his magazine, his relationship with Louis Farakhan, etc.

As for your second argument, I think that the left has a great deal of religious influence too--progressive taxation, the call for large social programs, etc. have long had religious overtones to them.

I won't deny that religiosity influences many Republicans' positions on abortion and marriage, but let's not pretend that religion doesn't influence both sides.

Wonderment 07-12-2010 12:09 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

You can look at his various other inflammatory statements concerning Jews, too. Statements that "white Jews" are racists, that Israel is committing "genocide," his publishing of Hamas letters in his magazine, his relationship with Louis Farakhan, etc.
Wright does have a bit of a rap sheet on inflammatory statements and relationships (eg. Farrakhan). I think it's hyberbolic to call him an anti-Semite and to accuse him of "hate preaching," but since Obama has cut him off, there's no need to debate that.

Quote:

think that the left has a great deal of religious influence too--progressive taxation, the call for large social programs, etc. have long had religious overtones to them.
You can put religious "overtones" on any moral issue, but the Republican anti-gay and anti-abortion positions are quite difficult to argue secularly. They are essentially Judeo-Christian-Muslim beliefs transposed to politics in an unadulterated (no pun intended) manner.

cognitive madisonian 07-12-2010 12:14 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 169353)
Wright does have a bit of a rap sheet on inflammatory statements and relationships (eg. Farrakhan). I think it's hyberbolic to call him an anti-Semite and to accuse him of "hate preaching," but since Obama has cut him off, there's no need to debate that.

I guess that gets down to how much a person has to do before they earn the label. Are we really not going to conclude that Mel Gibson may be a bit of a racist and anti-semite, on the basis of two events?


Quote:

You can put religious "overtones" on any moral issue, but the Republican anti-gay and anti-abortion positions are quite difficult to argue secularly. They are essentially Judeo-Christian-Muslim beliefs transposed to politics in an unadulterated (no pun intended) manner.
I don't think abortion is difficult to argue secularly. Marriage is often argued with religious framing but again, I don't think it's difficult to argue it non-religiously. The fact that many people make religious-infused arguments doesn't preclude the presence of valid arguments based not on religion. In fact, I'd equate them in this way with arguments for progressive taxation and large social programs.

bjkeefe 07-12-2010 12:22 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 169344)
That would include, of course, Barack and Michelle Obama, as well as Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton and all the other devout Christians in the current administration.

You may think the Obamas are devout Christians, but there isn't a wingnut or fundie online that would even come close to agreeing with you. [Added: for example.] Go look around for some yelling about how long it's been since Obama went to church, just to take one easy-to-search-on term. And I'm fairly sure my same point about "devout" being a stupid exaggeration applies to Clinton and Biden as well, although the wingnuts don't seem to be as exercised about these two as they are about the Head Negro In Charge.

Stop looking to throw something at Obama at every opportunity, and save your critiques for the areas where there is actually something worth harping on, would be my suggestion.

cognitive madisonian 07-12-2010 12:26 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 169359)
You may think the Obamas are devout Christians, but there isn't a wingnut or fundie online that would even come close to agreeing with you. Go look around for some yelling about how long it's been since Obama went to church, just to take one easy-to-search-on term.

The fact that some evangelicals on the right question Obama's religiosity has no bearing on the fact that Obama by his own profession of faith would fit your definition of nutty.

(I actually doubt the sincerity of Obama's conversion and his religiosity--I think he's an Agnostic who is savvy enough to have faked religiosity to get ahead)

AemJeff 07-12-2010 12:30 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 169344)
That would include, of course, Barack and Michelle Obama, as well as Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton and all the other devout Christians in the current administration.

"Claims" and "believes" are two different things. I have no problem with insincerity. And, yeah - they're "suspect."

cognitive madisonian 07-12-2010 12:32 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 169362)
"Claims" and "believes" are two different things. I have no problem with insincerity. And, yeah - they're "suspect."

I like politicians whose life stories aren't frauds.

nikkibong 07-12-2010 12:33 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169361)

(I actually doubt the sincerity of Obama's conversion and his religiosity--I think he's an Agnostic who is savvy enough to have faked religiosity to get ahead)

how do you know that? faith?

bjkeefe 07-12-2010 12:37 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 169342)

Breaking: New post from Roy, perfectly tuned for this thread.

Quote:

Sigh. Why don't minorities appreciate how hard conservatives are working for them?

cognitive madisonian 07-12-2010 12:37 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 169365)
how do you know that? faith?

I wouldn't claim to know it. I suspect it. I suspect it because if I were to not suspect it, I would have to believe that Obama found Wright's poisonous rhetoric to be enlightening, which is a frightening thought about the president. I hold it because it's just far too convenient that he joined an identity movement church that could ingratiate himself with a community that otherwise would've looked with suspicion at a light-skinned, Ivy league educated guy from Hawaii. And yes, because Obama hasn't chosen a church, and hasn't demonstrated anything suggesting genuine religiosity and not transparent political showmanship.

And because Obama's prone to being a transparent phony. See his stupid claim to have considered military service out of high school. If you believe that then there's some oceanfront property in Kansas I want to sell you.

cognitive madisonian 07-12-2010 12:38 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 169366)
Breaking: New post from Roy, perfectly tuned for this thread.

yeah they should be in the welfare line saying "please sir I'd like more" and "thank you, masta" to their liberal benefactors.

In the next Congress, there will be more black Republicans representing non majority/plurality black districts than black democrats doing the same. So let's not kid ourselves about which party embraces identity politics.

AemJeff 07-12-2010 12:39 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169364)
I like politicians whose life stories aren't frauds.

Show me one.

cognitive madisonian 07-12-2010 12:41 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 169370)
Show me one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ch_Daniels.jpg

AemJeff 07-12-2010 12:41 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169367)
I wouldn't claim to know it. I suspect it. I suspect it because if I were to not suspect it, I would have to believe that Obama found Wright's poisonous rhetoric to be enlightening, which is a frightening thought about the president. I hold it because it's just far too convenient that he joined an identity movement church that could ingratiate himself with a community that otherwise would've looked with suspicion at a light-skinned, Ivy league educated guy from Hawaii. And yes, because Obama hasn't chosen a church, and hasn't demonstrated anything suggesting genuine religiosity and not transparent political showmanship.

And because Obama's prone to being a transparent phony. See his stupid claim to have considered military service out of high school. If you believe that then there's some oceanfront property in Kansas I want to sell you.

Mind reading, apparently. And, to be sure - you reject Obama for the religious views you don't believe he has. Got it.

AemJeff 07-12-2010 12:42 AM

Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian (Post 169371)

That's a picture. Prove it.


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