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Bloggingheads 08-25-2009 08:56 AM

Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 

Lyle 08-25-2009 11:52 AM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
I'm a John Hulsman kind of Euro-skeptic. Until Europe unites as a whole and overcomes its internal disagreements, it cannot collectively project itself to the rest of the world. Being sort of a fan of the former German politician Joschka Fischer, who likes comparing the creation of the EU to the creation of the United States, I like to think of Europe being in an Articles of Confederation period, but with seemingly no way out at the moment and little hope of creating a Constitution for a strong, centralized State.

Lyle 08-25-2009 12:10 PM

Re: Highly Recommended
 
One might describe some Europeans, like the late Pim Fortuyn, as assimilationists rather than anti-immigrant maybe. Although I think the far right and assimilationists are working together politically in some ways now to have a larger voice.

claymisher 08-25-2009 01:45 PM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toryentalist (Post 126627)
I'm very EU-sceptic about the economic and, especially, the political union: I want us to be more like the Swiss, trading partners but nothing else. And judging by the percentage of votes for UKIP, the Tories and the Greens so do most Brits.

The problem is the EUrocrats don't take no for an answer. The Irish voted NO on the Lisbon treaty, and now they're being forced to vote again in a referendum because they didn't vote the way Brussels wanted.

Also, good to see John Hulsman back - he should be on here more regularly.

I dunno, how those EU referendums go seems more correlated with how popular the government is at the time of the election. It's also possible that people like the EU in general but dislike the particular treaty being voted on. That's democracy.

Francoamerican 08-25-2009 02:19 PM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Great discussion, with just enough disagreement on both sides to make it interesting without being a dialogue of the deaf (and dumb). I agree that the EU project has stalled, but I think that Europeans generally take the longer view of history and are more patient than Americans. Their experience has been forged, shall we say, in the cauldron of history. In any case, it is still too early to write the EU off as a failed experiment.

I regret to say that the real obstacle to further expansion and strengthening of the EU is the United Kingdom. De Gaulle knew from outset that the British would always see themselves in splendid isolation from the continent, and would tend to ally themselves with their American cousins. The Empire has left British conservatives, Burkean or not, with permanent delusions of grandeur: Do you really expect a nation of Colonel Blimps to see the world rationally?

Lyle 08-25-2009 02:51 PM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Francoamerican (Post 126639)
I think that Europeans generally take the longer view of history and are more patient than Americans. Their experience has been forged, shall we say, in the cauldron of history.

I want to disagree with this cause I'm not sure it is true. Depends on whatever historical perspective one takes, I guess. Europe has only found patience through American post-war hegemony. Prior to the War modern European history, beginning with the French Revolution, is impatient act after impatient act... and mostly in a violent, non-democratic way. America, on the other hand, long ago decided to take the longer view of history by creating a Republic where change mostly comes about through a long, drawn out democratic process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francoamerican (Post 126639)
In any case, it is still too early to write the EU off as a failed experiment.

I agree with this. It'll be a slow, patient process... contrary to what's come before it so oft in European history.

popcorn_karate 08-25-2009 03:22 PM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle (Post 126628)
it cannot collectively project itself to the rest of the world.

sounds like a good thing to me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle (Post 126628)
I like to think of Europe being in an Articles of Confederation period, but with seemingly no way out at the moment and little hope of creating a Constitution for a strong, centralized State.

sounds like a good thing to me

Lyle 08-25-2009 04:30 PM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Why?

claymisher 08-25-2009 04:32 PM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Francoamerican (Post 126639)
Do you really expect a nation of Colonel Blimps to see the world rationally?

Weak!

If you're going to do the cartoon Frenchman chauvinism thing you've got to do better than that.

Me&theboys 08-25-2009 05:20 PM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Excellent diavlog. Hope theses 2 come on more often.

Kandigol 08-25-2009 05:49 PM

Confessions of a European
 
This is a fascinating discussion. And I'm not even halfway yet.
'Europe is the Frankenstein that needs to be slain'.
Well, yeah, cheers mate!

I love it when two American intellects get together to pull us Europeans apart, in front of camera's. It is somehow very enlightening. One never feels as European as when discussed as such. I usually look upon our European politicians as a bunch of idiots, with the electorate as their even less developed claque, and this discussion somehow adds a certain gravitas to us.

Lyle 08-26-2009 01:23 AM

Re: anti-immigration vs pro-assimilation and the internet
 
I've more or less made similar observations myself while living and traveling in Europe. Nobody is "racist" or "anti-immigrant", but they normally have a lot of negative things to say about immigrants that you would rarely hear a similarly situated American say about immigrants or ethnic minorities. Its is a fascinating difference between Europe and America.

Francoamerican 08-26-2009 06:13 AM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by claymisher (Post 126656)
Weak!

If you're going to do the cartoon Frenchman chauvinism thing you've got to do better than that.

I doubt if many French people have even heard of Colonel Blimp. I am afraid, though, that British conservatives of a certain generation are pretty close to the caricature. Their attitude towards "Europeans" and other dubious foreigners displays all the traits of the irascible Colonel. And then there are the "yobs" who flock to football matches and show their general contempt for everyone not British.

The average Briton thinks of Europe as if it were a distant continent and the UK had nothing to do with it.

Francoamerican 08-26-2009 06:19 AM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle (Post 126643)
I want to disagree with this cause I'm not sure it is true. Depends on whatever historical perspective one takes, I guess. Europe has only found patience through American post-war hegemony. Prior to the War modern European history, beginning with the French Revolution, is impatient act after impatient act... and mostly in a violent, non-democratic way. America, on the other hand, long ago decided to take the longer view of history by creating a Republic where change mostly comes about through a long, drawn out democratic process.

I was thinking of the long haul, la longue durée, say the past one thousand years.

The achievment of democracy was a much slower process in Europe because there was a lot of resistance to it from upholders of the ancien régime, the aristocratic order of throne and altar.

Americans, as Tocqueville said, were born free and equal.....well, there were a few unequals with darker complexions. You seem to be forgetting the Civil War which was one of the bloodiest wars in history up to that time.

Francoamerican 08-26-2009 07:54 AM

Re: anti-immigration vs pro-assimilation and the internet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kidneystones (Post 126686)
Communities form around shared culture and history.

When Americans talk about their culture and history they MEAN the history of immigration and the assimilation of foreigners to the American civil religion of freedom and equality. Europeans, on the other hand, see their culture as rooted in history and language, and tend to look upon immigrants as outsiders until they prove themselves to be full-fledged members of the national culture and linguistic community. There are of course national nuances--the French emphasize their "Republican" tradition, the British their Commonwealth, the Germans their Kultur, the Dutch their "pillars"---but they are all different from the United States, and unlikely to change in my opinion, because their self-image, their identity, is not and never has been that of a nation of immigrants.

Lyle 08-26-2009 08:07 AM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
No, no, I never forget the Civil War. There is always an exception or two to the rule and the Civil War is one. However, the Constitution promulgated in 1789 survived the Civil War and still lasts (modified and added to, of course).

European history is also American history before Europeans colonized the New World (or before new nation States formed in the New World, whatever view one takes). You and I are probably distant cousins Franco. :)

Francoamerican 08-26-2009 03:07 PM

Re: Worldwise: Transatlantic Pragmatism (John Hulsman & Charles Kupchan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle (Post 126727)
No, no, I never forget the Civil War. There is always an exception or two to the rule and the Civil War is one. However, the Constitution promulgated in 1789 survived the Civil War and still lasts (modified and added to, of course).

European history is also American history before Europeans colonized the New World (or before new nation States formed in the New World, whatever view one takes). You and I are probably distant cousins Franco. :)

So it would appear. And we are also both related to Julius Caesar. That is what I once read somewhere. And I suppose we are also both related to the first amoeba.


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