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Bloggingheads 05-06-2009 05:59 PM

Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 

Thanks, dad! 05-06-2009 06:25 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
are any of you borderline retarded cons who criticize Europe going to shut up about the "welfare state" now? i love how Matthew just couldn't resist trying to poke holes in their system as if we're not going to notice the entire developed world is doing this successfully and has been for decades. he failed to mention that the dutch rate of 52% includes everything. when you add up cost of living and other taxes in america you get close to the same rate only the services we get back are a total joke. furthermore, we already are a welfare state and have been for a while it's just that we haven't figured out how to do it effectively yet....because of conservatives.
it's not that hard to figure out: they choose to include everyone and give them healthcare, etc......we choose to reward innovators with huge money and leave everyone who can't fend for themselves behind. thanks, conservatives!
also, i don't see how the US is so unlike europe if you look at our states as comparable to their countries.

JoeK 05-06-2009 06:35 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
bhtv should warn its audience that Democrat Party blogger, Matthew Yglesias, is a JournoList contributor. Just to let the folks know this guy's credibility comes with an asterisk.

graz 05-06-2009 06:58 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 112747)
bhtv should warn its audience that Democrat Party blogger, Matthew Yglesias, is a JournoList contributor. Just to let the folks know this guy's credibility comes with an asterisk.

The gig is up JoKe. We're on to you. Take your act to Breitbart or Pajamas.

piscivorous 05-06-2009 06:58 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Yes thanks to the conservatives the welfare system as designed by the liberals under President Johnson, which we all know was working so well, was destroyed by the conservatives, under the tutelage of the neocon President Clinton, just ruined everything. So with President Obama's trying to reestablish it under the auspices of the Stimulus package should return us to the same level of efficiency. No real stimulation and more freeloaders.

Thanks, dad! 05-06-2009 07:08 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
my point exactly. if we didn't have a resistance from troglodyte cons, then we'd be free to do something that actually works rather than compromising with retards.

JoeK 05-06-2009 07:10 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 112750)
The gig is up JoKe. We're on to you. Take your act to Breitbart or Pajamas.

Um, OK, before I leave I wanted to share something I noticed a couple of weeks ago. In one of his blog posts Mickey Kaus called Ezra Klein "Democratic blogger". I find that curious. Am I crazy or was that unusual?

Jyminee 05-06-2009 07:11 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
So true, JoeK! Just watch this clip: http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/195...3:26&out=43:32

Clearly Matt Y is ducking away to check in with his JournoList cronies in order to coordinate his response to Matt C. JoeK, you've cracked the code! You deserve a special asterisk next to your name, too, for being such a genius!

AemJeff 05-06-2009 07:13 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 112754)
Um, OK, before I leave I wanted to share something I noticed a couple of weeks ago. In one of his blog posts Mickey Kaus called Ezra Klein "Democratic blogger". I find that curious. Am I crazy or was that unusual?

Why would it even be noteworthy? Do you have a point?

Thanks, dad! 05-06-2009 07:17 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
he must be a "long term" troll or something. as if someone who works for the weekly standard doesn't need an asterisk.

JoeK 05-06-2009 07:19 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 112757)
Why would it even be noteworthy? Do you have a point?

Well, yeah, you see I am not sure if it was noteworthy. It could be my tin ear for English, but I would have expect "left blogger" or "liberal blogger", not Democratic.
So, you are saying that wasn't Mickey's dig at Ezra.

AemJeff 05-06-2009 07:40 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 112759)
Well, yeah, you see I am not sure if it was noteworthy. It could be my tin ear for English, but I would have expect "left blogger" or "liberal blogger", not Democratic.
So, you are saying that wasn't Mickey's dig at Ezra.

You're really stretching to find some significance here. I'd say that the label "Democrat" fits Mickey; certainly it's consistent with his self-description. I'm pretty sure I know what Ezra's party affiliation is, too. So one Democrat calling another Democrat a "Democrat." Good golly!

JoeK 05-06-2009 07:48 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 112763)
You're really stretching to find some significance here. I'd say that the label "Democrat" fits Mickey; certainly it's consistent with his self-description. I'm pretty sure I know what Ezra's party affiliation is, too. So one Democrat calling another Democrat a "Democrat." Good golly!

Okely dokely. As Mickey used to say in the golden age of diavloging: I defer to your expertise.

Blackadder 05-06-2009 08:07 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
I would recommend this Scott Sumner post as a nice compliment to the discussion about the Netherlands. Sumner's argument is that the victory of social democratic movements in a lot of northern European countries forced people in government to be more efficient in administering their welfare systems and also led them to adopt a number of policies that, if you advocated them here, would get you called a right-wing extremist. The Netherlands, for example, has school vouchers, a lower corporate tax rate than the U.S., no capital gains tax, and has recently revamped its health care system to make it more market oriented.

DenvilleSteve 05-06-2009 08:20 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanks, dad! (Post 112743)
are any of you borderline retarded cons who criticize Europe going to shut up about the "welfare state" now?

also, i don't see how the US is so unlike europe if you look at our states as comparable to their countries.

I agree that if republicans are going to argue ( as they do ) that all Americans should accept small government and low taxes because it would increase prosperity for all, they have to explain why the semi socialist European economies function well. Heck, just explain why Canada has a high standard of living.

I think the focus should be on allowing people to have the degree of government that suits them. That means having more than one choice. If the federal government was dismantled to the degree that there was no more social security, medicare, OSHA, FDA, EPA, FEMA, dept of labor, dept of education, etc, then state governments would separate into low tax states like Texas and Oklahoma and high tax California and NY.

DenvilleSteve 05-06-2009 08:31 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadder (Post 112769)
I would recommend this Scott Sumner post as a nice compliment to the discussion about the Netherlands. Sumner's argument is that the victory of social democratic movements in a lot of northern European countries forced people in government to be more efficient in administering their welfare systems and also led them to adopt a number of policies that, if you advocated them here, would get you called a right-wing extremist. The Netherlands, for example, has school vouchers, a lower corporate tax rate than the U.S., no capital gains tax, and has recently revamped its health care system to make it more market oriented.

It doesn't matter if you can prove big government can be efficient or not. A large number of Americans, although not a majority, will never accept the authority of the state in their lives. The thought of Joe Biden and Arlen Spector make my skin crawl. If you want big government you have to allow people to opt out. Otherwise what you have is a tyranny of the majority and forced servitude. Let the states handle 9/10's of what the federal government currently does.

pampl 05-06-2009 08:42 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 112771)
It doesn't matter if you can prove big government can be efficient or not. A large number of Americans, although not a majority, will never accept the authority of the state in their lives. The thought of Joe Biden and Arlen Spector make my skin crawl. If you want big government you have to allow people to opt out. Otherwise what you have is a tyranny of the majority and forced servitude. Let the states handle 9/10's of what the federal government currently does.

Letting the states handle it would still be a "tyranny of the majority and forced servitude". Anything short of anarcho-capitalism would be. The sane 98% of society have rejected this option and chosen to live in a democratic republic instead, which does necessarily involve funding things you don't like

DenvilleSteve 05-06-2009 08:51 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pampl (Post 112773)
Letting the states handle it would still be a "tyranny of the majority and forced servitude". Anything short of anarcho-capitalism would be. The sane 98% of society have rejected this option and chosen to live in a democratic republic instead, which does necessarily involve funding things you don't like

Even by your estimate of 98% opting for BG that still leaves one state that would be, as I would see it, free. Why not allow one state in the union to go anarcho?

Put another way, if the states had the responsibility to pay for and administer social programs, they would all, bar 1, choose a tradtional large government model. Why would you not allow a single state to break out of this happy union of yours?

pampl 05-06-2009 08:57 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 112774)
Even by your estimate of 98% opting for BG that still leaves one state that would be, as I would see it, free. Why not allow one state in the union to go anarcho?

Put another way, if the states had the responsibility to pay for and administer social programs, they would all, bar 1, choose a tradtional large government model. Why would you not allow a single state to break out of this happy union of yours?

Believe me, if there were a way to round you all up and dump you in the wilderness somewhere I'd be the biggest proponent. Unfortunately an-caps tend to integrate themselves into decent society and freeload off of public money while indulging in fantasies about being independent and self-made.

AemJeff 05-06-2009 09:18 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 112774)
Even by your estimate of 98% opting for BG that still leaves one state that would be, as I would see it, free. Why not allow one state in the union to go anarcho?

Put another way, if the states had the responsibility to pay for and administer social programs, they would all, bar 1, choose a tradtional large government model. Why would you not allow a single state to break out of this happy union of yours?

Put that into the category of ain't gonna happen. If it did, I guarantee it wouldn't work out like you dream it would.

Rationally, such a state would freeload on the services of the other forty-nine. Why not, since the services are available, and from the point of view of somebody living in the State of Anarchy they'd be free? That's not a stable situation. You could build walls, I guess, to keep the freeloaders away from the services everybody else pays for, but then you wouldn't be so free, would you? Eventually, with no police, no services, no roads, no hospitals, and no way out - the residents of Anarchy would be snacking on each other. Mmmm, fried Anarchist!

DenvilleSteve 05-06-2009 09:20 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 112776)
I was seriously ill once and spent a lot of time in nursing homes. The medicaid and medicare fraud is rampant. It's downright scandalous. These homes were certified by the V.A. and I often told them about it and would get a "what else is new" response. The nursing homes were getting kickbacks from the private pharmacies they dealt with, therapists, doctors, and hospitals. Whatever health plan they come up with I hope it will deal with these fraudulent practices.

John

You know it will only get worse. We are past the breaking point where people see the cause and effect in terms of wasteful government spending and their tax rates. God bless the heartland communities that are rejecting the stimulus money. But there is too much on the table for those decent places to continue that practice for much longer.

mmacklem 05-06-2009 09:28 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 112770)
I agree that if republicans are going to argue ( as they do ) that all Americans should accept small government and low taxes because it would increase prosperity for all, they have to explain why the semi socialist European economies function well. Heck, just explain why Canada has a high standard of living.

I vaguely remember reading a study somewhere that concluded that the reason Canada has a high standard of living in spite of their level of taxation because Canadians are by-and-large the world's coolest people, and are much more talented and attractive than anyone else in the world. I think I have that right, I'll try to locate the citation if anyone's interested in the study.

DenvilleSteve 05-06-2009 09:28 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 112778)
Put that into the category of ain't gonna happen. If it did, I guarantee it wouldn't work out like you dream it would.

Rationally, such a state would freeload on the services of the other forty-nine. Why not, since the services are available, and from the point of view of somebody living in the State of Anarchy they'd be free? That's not a stable situation. You could build walls, I guess, to keep the freeloaders away from the services everybody else pays for, but then you wouldn't be so free, would you? Eventually, with no police, no services, no roads, no hospitals, and no way out - the residents of Anarchy would be snacking on each other. Mmmm, fried Anarchist!

democrats are the ones phrasing this in terms of anarchy vs public order. Government could be 1/5th the size it is now and the truely needy would get the aid they need.

I think the in/out flow would work out the reverse of what you are predicting. Currently, people are leaving states like Michigan and NY, where large government has destroyed the local economy, for states like Texas where a person can earn an honest living. In a system where there was no federal administering of social programs, populations would migrate out of the high tax, big government states.

DenvilleSteve 05-06-2009 09:30 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 112779)
You know it will only get worse. We are past the breaking point where people see the cause and effect in terms of wasteful government spending and their tax rates. God bless the heartland communities that are rejecting the stimulus money. But there is too much on the table for those decent places to continue that practice for much longer.

maybe it is the goofy accent. or the large amount of natural resources, the sale of which, fund their government programs.

mmacklem 05-06-2009 09:30 PM

Liberalism vs. Conservatism in 2 fun-packed minutes
 
I found this exchange to be a very good, and arguably fair to both sides, summary of the perspectives of liberalism and conservatism writ large.

eburke 05-06-2009 09:42 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 112781)
democrats are the ones phrasing this in terms of anarchy vs public order. Government could be 1/5th the size it is now and the truely needy would get the aid they need.

I think the in/out flow would work out the reverse of what you are predicting. Currently, people are leaving states like Michigan and NY, where large government has destroyed the local economy, for states like Texas where a person can earn an honest living. In a system where there was no federal administering of social programs, populations would migrate out of the high tax, big government states.

I don't know how you could slash government by 80% and maintain a strong national defense.

cognitive madisonian 05-06-2009 09:44 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 112770)
I agree that if republicans are going to argue ( as they do ) that all Americans should accept small government and low taxes because it would increase prosperity for all, they have to explain why the semi socialist European economies function well. Heck, just explain why Canada has a high standard of living.

Well, let's take Norway as a case study. Low population density, large supply of natural resources. Homogeneous culture. Absence of significant global presence in anything that requires actual courage.

America can not follow the European model. Furthermore, given declining birth rates, Europe will not be able to follow the European model into the future.

And I say that as someone who out of self interest would consider moving to France :p

DenvilleSteve 05-06-2009 09:50 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eburke (Post 112790)
I don't know how you could slash government by 80% and maintain a strong national defense.

I would leave defense at the federal level and for the sake of argument, leave it funded where it is. The 80% figure I pulled out of the air applies to social spending.

now, defense spending, in the coming age of nuclear proliferation, arguably drops significantly.

Thanks, dad! 05-06-2009 10:14 PM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
now that is my kind of comment;) it had me laughin' pretty good, nice one.

rgajria 05-06-2009 10:24 PM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Uh, Huh!
BJKeefe, Where are you?

piscivorous 05-07-2009 12:37 AM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
One could look at the rental rate of U Haul trailers and get a good idea of where immigration and out migration are occurring. The only data on that that I have seen lately is this and it is specific to one instance.
Quote:

...San Francisco to Austin, the charge is $3,236, and yet the one-way charge for that same truck from Austin to San Francisco is just $399...
and list in migration and out migration rates for various metropolitan areas.

kezboard 05-07-2009 02:30 AM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Point taken on the natural resources, although this applies to Norway way more than other European countries. But what the crap does this mean:

Quote:

Absence of significant global presence in anything that requires actual courage.
Do you mean that Norway doesn't spend a lot on defense?
Question: Why do conservatives spend so much time raking Europe over the coals for spending more money on their welfare state and leaving the defense to the US? If it rankles them so much to pay for those ungrateful Europeans, why don't they just leave them to their own devices? And if they love superpower status so much, why don't they quit complaining and tell us Americans that the national debt and the crappy social safety net is the price we pay for heroically keeping the Russians out of Europe?

Seriously, if some superpower is willing to keep you under their nuclear umbrella to maintain their power, and you can spend the money you would have otherwise spent on armies and airplanes and such on healthcare and pensions, you're a smart country. Personally, I would love to have the US quit spending so much time protecting Poland from Iranian nukes and pretending to care about South Ossetia.

kezboard 05-07-2009 04:06 AM

Canada
 
Yglesias: If there were some other huge, rich country, we could learn more from them, but there isn't...

Um, I think Matt and Matt are forgetting one huge, rich social democracy with a similar history, similar heritage, and a similarly diverse population, and even a similar accent, that manages to have national health care. You may have heard of it? It's called Canada. I know the article they were discussing is about the Netherlands, but what's the point of saying that you can't replicate the Netherlands in the USA? Everyone knows that. Srsly, let's have some arguments about why we can't replicate Canada and throw out all this talk about how diverse and huge the US is.

kezboard 05-07-2009 04:08 AM

Re: Free Market Europe
 
Quote:

A large number of Americans, although not a majority, will never accept the authority of the state in their lives.
What does this even mean? Don't all Americans who don't break laws, pay taxes, and go on government welfare programs when they need to accept the authority of the state in their lives?

bjkeefe 05-07-2009 04:27 AM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgajria (Post 112797)
Uh, Huh!
BJKeefe, Where are you?

Right here. Why do you ask?

Anotherbob 05-07-2009 05:02 AM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
I like Matthew Continetti but he sometimes seems to suffer from Pinkerton's disease (wildly flailing around in an affable way).

More effective government services? More social equality? More bikes? Move along people, nothing to learn here.

Nobody, literally, nobody is trying to turn America in New Denmark (maybe they once did in the 17th century, but certainly not anymore). Stop pretending that that is the argument.

bjkeefe 05-07-2009 05:15 AM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anotherbob (Post 112845)
Nobody, literally, nobody is trying to turn America in New Denmark (maybe they once did in the 17th century, but certainly not anymore). Stop pretending that that is the argument.

Couldn't agree more. This entire diavlog was an endless series of exchanges like this:

Continetti: You would agree with this, wouldn't you? [... Insert some simplistic stereotype of a caricature of a position welfare recipients at The Weekly Standard imagine Everyone On The Left holds ...] You'd say that, wouldn't you?

Yglesias: Uh, not really. [Drinks soda, rolls eyes, contemplates futility of trying to set the record straight, gives up, imagines torture he will inflict on booking agent for pairing him with Jonathan Krohn's twin bother once again]

Francoamerican 05-07-2009 06:40 AM

Re: Dutch Wonderland (Matthew Yglesias & Matthew Continetti)
 
Ho Hum. Although I like both Yglesias and Continetti, they really failed to shed much light on the question of American resistance to social democracy. Two remarks:

(1) Instead of comparing the US with tiny, socially homogeneous states like Denmark, the Netherlands and Finland, why not compare it with much larger states like Britain, Germany or France, which all have highly developed systems of social welfare and fairly diverse populations? They also have very "disputatious" political cultures---certainly as disputatious as as that of the United States, which, pace Continetti, is prone to simplistic slogans (e.g. "big government" vs. small government) that belong more to the 18th century than to the 21st.

(2) It would also be nice to have a more philosophical discussion of the arguments made for social democracy in Britain, France, and Germany since the 19th century. American conservatives, in their obsession with government power, tend to forget that the "wisdom of the market," when extended beyond the market itself, is a natural ally of a new kind of despotism (or even totalitarianism...) which subverts education, public spirit, ethical formation, and concern for the environment.

pampl 05-07-2009 08:15 AM

Re: Canada
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 112839)
Yglesias: If there were some other huge, rich country, we could learn more from them, but there isn't...

Um, I think Matt and Matt are forgetting one huge, rich social democracy with a similar history, similar heritage, and a similarly diverse population, and even a similar accent, that manages to have national health care. You may have heard of it? It's called Canada. I know the article they were discussing is about the Netherlands, but what's the point of saying that you can't replicate the Netherlands in the USA? Everyone knows that. Srsly, let's have some arguments about why we can't replicate Canada and throw out all this talk about how diverse and huge the US is.

Canada only has 30 million people and much less geographical and income diversity. It's not really a better analogue than, for example, Britain.

mmacklem 05-07-2009 08:20 AM

Re: Canada
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pampl (Post 112851)
Canada only has 30 million people and much less geographical and income diversity. It's not really a better analogue than, for example, Britain.

Regarding having less geographical diversity, I would be curious to hear the argument for that statement. And as far as having less income diversity, I think that was the point, why do they have less income diversity while still having high rates of growth? That's the entire question being posed.


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